[Tiste Simeon]

Dang, caught up (at last) last night. Really enjoying this season and have been reading this thread to catch up on all the theories. So much I have forgotten from the books!

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Clearly Summer is the spirit of...summer. And as summer wanes, so does Summer.


/s?

[Abyss]

Tatterdemalion, on 26 May 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

Traveller, on 25 May 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

Wasn't Ghost the only white Direwolf originally? Summer was looking very white in that episode.

Since no one's mentioning this... yeah, WTF. He totally looked like Ghost.

The deaths pre Hold the Door were the worst and cheesiest part of the episode, IMO.

Why pause to try to act like we care about a tree sprite? The fuck does Meera give for them?

Summer was beige/tan. The original stunt wolf was fired for a cocaine habit and this was as close as they could get on schedule.

[Nevyn]

worry, on 26 May 2016 - 05:07 AM, said:

You mean Leaf and co.? She saved their lives at the end of season 4, and presumably has been a constant in their daily lives since then. I doubt any of the humans have been providing the food they've been living on. There's not much on-screen meat to them for viewers, but it makes sense for the characters to care.

Summer was definitely much darker (and kinda stripey) in the first season, but has fairly pale since then.

Not to mention it is revealed that she created the walkers, and so there is an element of atonement in her pulling a Hedge to help them escape.

[Tatterdemalion]

worry, on 26 May 2016 - 05:07 AM, said:

You mean Leaf and co.? She saved their lives at the end of season 4, and presumably has been a constant in their daily lives since then. I doubt any of the humans have been providing the food they've been living on. There's not much on-screen meat to them for viewers, but it makes sense for the characters to care.

Summer was definitely much darker (and kinda stripey) in the first season, but has fairly pale since then.

See, we've seen so many scenes without her... I just imagined she and her apparent brethren disappeared into the tree again. I suppose she spoke to Meera in episode (2?). Just felt like they had two minor 'sacrificing themselves' moments pre Hodor, as if everyone and anyone can be brave enough to kill themselves for Bran. I know, I know Summer's a wolf who has been raised to defend Bran and makes total sense, even if leaping into the mob makes no sense. And I suppose the tree sprite knows Bran's importance enough to pull as Vasquez. But still. It was a cavalcade of characters hurling themselves into the mob to accomplish little before Hodor brought the house down. Maybe I just wish more people were 'caught' unaware, and it's that form of tragedy, than the 'sacrificing themselves so nobly' form of tragedy.

Summer, at least, would be very helpful out with Meera right now. But yeah, he's a wolf.

[Tatterdemalion]

Okay, I didn't seen the above post when I referred to it as pulling a Vasquez. Clearly your comparison is more apt, even if Aliens is still amazing.

ANOTHER thing to discuss:

Why didn't Bran just drop out of the vision? Assuming he could choose to leave - or maybe 3-eye could drop him out before dying - Bran knows how to warg into Hodor.
Why not warg into Hodor and control him to do everything he did? Then maybe bolt at the last second, say?

Someone will say: because if he hadn't shouted at Hodor, Hodor wouldn't be Hodor. But not really. If Bran had dropped out without shouting would Hodor have suddenly become sensate in the Tree? Would he have disappeared? Surely not. If so, Bran could have cured him!

Now I'm getting into time travel paradoxes, but I invite people to discuss the premise of warging his way to triumph instead of debilitating a friend.

[Terez]

Tatterdemalion, on 26 May 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why didn't Bran just drop out of the vision? Assuming he could choose to leave...

My assumption is that it was the same thing we saw in Bran's previous trips to the past: he didn't want to leave because of his sentimental attachment to the scenes of his father. In this one, his father and his Uncle Benjen, and the grandfather who died before he was born. And Hodor.

Tatterdemalion, on 26 May 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

...or maybe 3-eye could drop him out before dying...

I believe that's why the 3ER took him there. He knew that this needed to happen, but he did not know how soon that moment would come until Bran's encounter with the Night's King. IMO this needed to happen to untether Bran from the tree so that he can learn everything he needs to know without touching it. So, it's possible that the 3ER was keeping him there, but I think it more likely that Bran's sentimentality in previous scenes was supposed to be helpful foreshadowing.

Tatterdemalion, on 26 May 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Bran knows how to warg into Hodor.
Why not warg into Hodor and control him to do everything he did? Then maybe bolt at the last second, say?

He did warg into Hodor. That was the reason why Meera was trying to hard to wake him from his vision; when Hodor gets nervous he can't control his hodoring. She even said they needed Bran to "warg Hodor". So Bran did, and Hodor got up and did what needed to be done.

In the books, Bran knows that Hodor's consciousness retreats when Bran takes control, happily enough, though Bran also notes he often has the taste of bile in his throat. My best understanding of what happened in The Door is that Bran warged Hodor, and Hodor's consciousness retreated to the same place where a piece of Bran's consciousness remains in the vision. Hodor allows it to happen, as he always does. There can only be one Hodor, so this makes past Hodor aware of Bran's presence, aware of what is happening to him in the future.

Some have suggested that it was past/young Hodor who was holding the door. It just seems unlikely that either past or present Hodor would be that brave. The present Hodor is more likely to want to help Bran, but his inability to keep it together is what started this whole scenario. Past Hodor doesn't know Bran, and doesn't seem very brave. Maybe you could argue that it was a combination of the two, but it makes more sense that Bran was in control of present Hodor's body; he was experiencing the death of Hodor just as much as Hodor was experiencing it.

In other words, when Bran wargs Hodor normally, he can observe Hodor's consciousness in its happy place somewhere on the subconscious level, submissive to Bran's consciousness. What Bran did here was in some ways no different, but his subconscious was touching the past, so he observed Hodor's reaction to his own death through past Hodor.

Bran might be temporarily stuck in greenseeing mode, as if his body had died. We'll find out on Sunday.

[Nevyn]

Tatterdemalion, on 26 May 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Okay, I didn't seen the above post when I referred to it as pulling a Vasquez. Clearly your comparison is more apt, even if Aliens is still amazing.

ANOTHER thing to discuss:

Why didn't Bran just drop out of the vision? Assuming he could choose to leave - or maybe 3-eye could drop him out before dying - Bran knows how to warg into Hodor.
Why not warg into Hodor and control him to do everything he did? Then maybe bolt at the last second, say?

Someone will say: because if he hadn't shouted at Hodor, Hodor wouldn't be Hodor. But not really. If Bran had dropped out without shouting would Hodor have suddenly become sensate in the Tree? Would he have disappeared? Surely not. If so, Bran could have cured him!

Now I'm getting into time travel paradoxes, but I invite people to discuss the premise of warging his way to triumph instead of debilitating a friend.

I'll have to re-watch. I thought he did Warg into Hodor, but sort of used young Hodor as a conduit because he was in the vision. As to why not drop out, maybe he does not yet know how on his own? As to why 3ER didn't drop him out, maybe 3ER knew he would be dying, and Bran would not be able to get back into the vision unless he stayed there until he knows more. Or maybe what happens to Hodor was intended by 3ER because it teaches Bran the consequence of trying to communicate/alter things in his visions.

[Tatterdemalion]

Great answers. I didn't know he could warg and vision. Have to see it again, but I like the premise the sudden debilitating fit was young Honor envisioning his own forced death. Wacky.

[Tatterdemalion]

Great answers. I didn't know he could warg and vision. Have to see it again, but I like the premise the sudden debilitating fit was young Honor envisioning his own forced death. Wacky.

[Terez]

Rewatching. Season 1, Episode 7:

Quote

Littlefinger: Do you know what I learnt, losing that duel? I learnt that I'll never win. Not that way. That's their game. Their rules. I'm not going to fight them. I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know. That's what I am. And only by admitting what we are can we get what we want.

Roz: And what do you want?

Littlefinger: Oh, everything, my dear. Everything there is.

Not incredibly illuminating, but I guess it does shed a little light on the whole Sansa plot, if she's part of his revenge.

Looking forward to the rest of this season.

[Terez]

I rewatched season 1, and I kept asking myself, "Why do I keep putting myself through this torture?" Season 1 is hard enough to watch; I can't even stomach the idea of two seasons of King Joffrey. The more I try to reread/rewatch the more I ask myself how I ever managed to fall in love with this story in the first place. It's terrible.

It feels like we're finally starting to get a little payoff for all that pain, which is a weird thing to say after one of the most emotionally moving deaths in the series so far. It just feels like we are finally getting somewhere. Bran is coming into his powers and this follows Dany in Vaes Dothrak.

Does anyone think they will be able to keep up the momentum from the last two episodes? Both could have been season-enders.

In the preview, Jaime says to Cersei something like "She's tearing our family apart." I'm guessing that means Margaery, so what does that say about Tommen? Do you think the High Sparrow will tell him that Cersei had him arm the Faith Militant just to destroy Margaery? Technically, he could figure that out on his own. Or Margaery could tell him.

I'm also wondering how they will handle the adaptation of Brienne's meeting with Septon Meribald and/or the Elder Brother. That will be either this week or next week, but IMO this week would make more sense because Jaime is headed to the Riverlands next week where he is supposed to meet up with Brienne.

In the books, Brienne met Septon Meribald while she was searching for Sansa. She started out from King's Landing (where she had just received Oathkeeper from Jaime) and went up to Rosby and Duskendale to look in on the Hollards, and then to Maidenpool where she encountered Septon Meribald, who escorted her to Saltpans, or rather, to the Quiet Isle where she met the Elder Brother who claimed to have nursed the Hound until his death. They had his warhorse, and many fans think that the gravedigger seen on the island is actually Sandor Clegane. The theory goes that the Faith is nursing him back to health to serve as their Champion against Frankenmountain.

In the show, of course, Brienne and the Hound have already met; it was Brienne who appeared to have killed him in the end. Will she recognize him?

She hoped to find Sansa with the Hound in the books because she heard a rumor that the Hound had one of the Stark girls, and she thought Arya was dead. But it turned out to be Arya, and after hearing about Lysa's death, Brienne thought Riverrun was her best shot at finding Sansa. She made it as far as the Crossroads Inn where she was captured by the Brotherhood under the leadership of Lady Stoneheart; last we saw her she was about to be hanged along with Pod.

In the show, presumably Brienne will sail from Eastwatch to Saltpans en route to Riverrun, and she'll meet the Elder Brother that way. Or Septon Meribald, or a character who is a combination of the two (played by Ian McShane). If it's this week, that will dovetail nicely with the confrontation in King's Landing, but if Cersei's trial is still on (as seems likely) then the Hound himself will become relevant in coming episodes, so maybe it will be next week. But that will delay Brienne's meeting with Jaime until the end of ep 7 or ep 8.

Does anyone think we'll see Lady Stoneheart in the show? Now would be the time to introduce her, if they're ever going to. And with Wyman Manderly having been cast, it's possible they're going to indulge in some Frey revenge after all. We've had a few reminders of the Brotherhood lately because it was relevant to Jon's resurrection.

I can see a season finale with Jon's Tower of Joy revelation and Lady Stoneheart hanging Brienne and Pod. Some have theorized that Jon will actually be able to witness the Tower of Joy revelation through Bran somehow, maybe at the Winterfell weirwood. That would be cool. We're going to see a bit more of the Tower of Joy this week, but according to Wert upthread the big reveal is likely not going to be until ep 10. But after having reread Brienne's chapters in AFFC, I'm thinking Lady Stoneheart is definitely on the table for the end of this season.

[worry]

If Brienne does see the Hound I think she'll recognize him but she won't move him into doing anything, and then she'll move on now knowing where he is. Once she learns about Ser Gregor from Jaime or whatever though, then she can go back to Hound and stir in him that need for revenge. I mean, at least that's smarter longform storytelling than she meets him and he immediately goes from gravedigger among the monks to his old self again in a few minutes. On the other hand McShane seemed to say he was in one episode, so maybe they'll rush it after all. It just doesn't make sense to me that the Hound will be moved to action without info on Ser Gregor.

I'm always always always hoping for Stoneheart, and never never never expecting her. I would hope if she puts a noose around Brienne's neck though it's not left as a season cliffhanger.

Tower of Joy will probably play out as you say, in Winterfell at the weirwood, with Bran in the Crow role and Jon in the Bran role. I would have hoped that one of the flashbacks could afford us a cameo from Sean Bean instead of young Eddard though.

[Terez]

worry, on 29 May 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

If Brienne does see the Hound I think she'll recognize him but she won't move him into doing anything, and then she'll move on now knowing where he is.

This was kind of my assumption about how it would go down. In the books, it made sense for her to not recognize him at all, but not so much in the show.

worry, on 29 May 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Once she learns about Ser Gregor from Jaime or whatever though, then she can go back to Hound and stir in him that need for revenge. I mean, at least that's smarter longform storytelling than she meets him and he immediately goes from gravedigger among the monks to his old self again in a few minutes. On the other hand McShane seemed to say he was in one episode, so maybe they'll rush it after all. It just doesn't make sense to me that the Hound will be moved to action without info on Ser Gregor.

Who says Meribald/Elder Brother doesn't already know? I assumed that info would come to them somehow from the Sept of Baelor.

worry, on 29 May 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

I'm always always always hoping for Stoneheart, and never never never expecting her. I would hope if she puts a noose around Brienne's neck though it's not left as a season cliffhanger.

Well, at least if they do it as a cliffhanger, we won't have to wait more than a decade to find out WTF she said. I'm just saying, if they are going to give us Stoneheart, it would seem that now is the time.

worry, on 29 May 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Tower of Joy will probably play out as you say, in Winterfell at the weirwood, with Bran in the Crow role and Jon in the Bran role. I would have hoped that one of the flashbacks could afford us a cameo from Sean Bean instead of young Eddard though.

Maybe next year, but I still tend to doubt it. Most of what's important for Bran to learn is going to be in the past.

Briar King, on 29 May 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

Idk about LS. She ll be strange to introduce this late in game much like Coldhands. They both shoulda been shown in S4 so at this point I just say leave them out and build up the Alt Uni they ve been going for.

The showrunners have different considerations, and it actually makes more sense for them to do it this way, so they don't have mysterious characters sitting on the back burner while show watchers forget about them over the course of a few seasons.

Coldhands is another one we should see, hopefully today.

[Terez]

So, they decided to go with Benhands even though GRRM made it pretty clear that's not the case in the books.

Confirmed Aerys/Jaime flashbacks. Spoilered for size. Also, what's this town that apparently has a dragon flying over it? Volantis? And what's the bloody hand? Lyanna? I probably missed some good stuff; those flashbacks were really fast. I passed over stuff from previous episodes.

Spoiler

[QuickTidal]

I just popped back on thread to say, is this there where I come to say I TOLD YOU SO?

Benjen muthafuckaz. Coldhands. Joseph Mawle.

Seems I'm NOT so off base eh?

And no, I don't care about who Coldhands ends up being in the books.

Oh, and Bran saw the Mad King screaming about burning people...anyone wanna place bets with me on that prediction too (since I won the Benjen reveal)?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 May 2016 - 02:38 AM

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 30 May 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I just popped back on thread to say, is this there where I come to say I TOLD YOU SO?

You said Benjen's actor was confirmed for this episode. Alls we did was tell you that IMDb ≠ confirmation. He's been listed for episodes before where he didn't show up (like "Hardhome" last year). So was Michelle Fairley.

Try reading what you missed.

[Terez]

Another interesting bit: Benjen tells Bran that he needs to be waiting for the Night's King at the Wall, which pours a little cold water on the theories that Bran will somehow meet Jon at Winterfell before episode 10, unless they really move his plot along fast. I mean, I guess it could happen. There are four episodes left.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 30 May 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 May 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I just popped back on thread to say, is this there where I come to say I TOLD YOU SO?

You said Benjen's actor was confirmed for this episode. Alls we did was tell you that IMDb ≠ confirmation. He's been listed for episodes before where he didn't show up (like "Hardhome" last year). So was Michelle Fairley.

Try reading what you missed.

Is what it looks like when you've been proven wrong and you don't like it?

Terez, on 30 May 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

My guess it Brother Beyond the Wall is just Coldhands. And since GRRM said that Coldhands is not Benjen, if it turns out he is Benjen in the show, it would basically be fanservice. IMDb has trolled us before so I would be wary; it's user-edited and while I gather they have some kind of modding going on, it's not perfect by any means.

So here we have what you said, which was disbelieving that Coldhands was Benjen (or that it would be fanservice)...I'd LOVE for you to explain that statement to be honest...becuase it's the farthest thing from that. Benjen as Coldhands makes more sense than just some random north of the wall who helps out...again GRRM left Benjens fate a mystery...on purpose...and that you believe that some notes scrawled in the margins of a manuscript by GRRM to his editor are as good as a denial from GRRM himself in an interview or something...it's not...it's a spurious sourced statement at best. But the bottom line is that I said this was going to occur. It occured.

I know you don't like me, but yeesh. I was making light of things with my "I told you so". Perhaps I ought to have added an emoji?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 May 2016 - 02:59 AM

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 30 May 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

Terez, on 30 May 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 May 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I just popped back on thread to say, is this there where I come to say I TOLD YOU SO?

You said Benjen's actor was confirmed for this episode. Alls we did was tell you that IMDb ≠ confirmation. He's been listed for episodes before where he didn't show up (like "Hardhome" last year). So was Michelle Fairley.

Try reading what you missed.

Is what it looks like when you've been proven wrong and you don't like it?

I haven't been proven wrong about anything.

Quote

Terez, on 30 May 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

My guess it Brother Beyond the Wall is just Coldhands. And since GRRM said that Coldhands is not Benjen, if it turns out he is Benjen in the show, it would basically be fanservice. IMDb has trolled us before so I would be wary; it's user-edited and while I gather they have some kind of modding going on, it's not perfect by any means.

So here we have what you said, which was disbelieving that Coldhands was Benjen (or that it would be fanservice)...

I said my guess is that it would just be Coldhands, based on the fact that GRRM is clearly not going for Benhands. Making a guess is not the same thing as taking a bet. No one took your bet, much as your selective memory would like to make you out to be some kind of hero here. I left open the possibility that the show would go the fanservice route because that was believable to me, which is why I mentioned later in that same post other fanservicey things that it looks like the show might do (based on popular fan theories).

Then I went on to explain why we should be wary of IMDb cast listings. So, basically my post holds up better than yours, because my post was a reasoned take on the facts at hand.

Quote

GRRM left Benjens fate a mystery...on purpose...and that you believe that some notes scrawled in the margins of a manuscript by GRRM to his editor are as good as a denial from GRRM himself in an interview or something...it's not...it's a spurious sourced statement at best.

The note to his editor basically confirmed what most book fans already knew, since Leaf said Coldhands was killed "long ago".

Quote

But the bottom line is that I said this was going to occur. It occured.

You and a million other fans who crave fanservice. Do you want a cookie? I never said it wouldn't occur, so if you want to gloat, you need to find someone else to gloat to. I wasn't particularly surprised about this turn of events.