[End of Disc One]

Maybe all the Littlefingers we see are clones, and they communicate via mockingbird. It would explain why they have different accents.

[worry]

I've been thinking about Littlefinger, and how people are finding his goals kind of murky right now. Are his plots within plots serving him, why is he making so many alliances, which side is he really playing? I think everyone knows he's on his own side, really, but it's unclear how any of this is serving his rise to the top. But frankly I don't think he's trying to rise to the top. I don't think the wars, the deaths, the destruction are a means to an end. I think they are the end (or at least one of them). In other words, I don't think he's chaotic neutral -- I think he actively, seethingly hates all these people and wants them to die...not as a byproduct of his schemes, but as part and parcel to them. He wants the Vale involved not because they might see victory, but so they'll be just as damaged as the other regions. Maximum attrition on all sides. I'm not downplaying his ambition, cuz I don't think this and the throne are mutually exclusive goals. But his goal isn't to rise to the top; it's to sink everyone else. That goal sits right beside the throne, not subjacent to it.

[Andorion]

worry, on 25 May 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

I've been thinking about Littlefinger, and how people are finding his goals kind of murky right now. Are his plots within plots serving him, why is he making so many alliances, which side is he really playing? I think everyone knows he's on his own side, really, but it's unclear how any of this is serving his rise to the top. But frankly I don't think he's trying to rise to the top. I don't think the wars, the deaths, the destruction are a means to an end. I think they are the end (or at least one of them). In other words, I don't think he's chaotic neutral -- I think he actively, seethingly hates all these people and wants them to die...not as a byproduct of his schemes, but as part and parcel to them. He wants the Vale involved not because they might see victory, but so they'll be just as damaged as the other regions. Maximum attrition on all sides. I'm not downplaying his ambition, cuz I don't think this and the throne are mutually exclusive goals. But his goal isn't to rise to the top; it's to sink everyone else. That goal sits right beside the throne, not subjacent to it.

Have you heard of the Republic of Littlefinger theory? Its book based but it suggests that LF wants to overthrow the feudal society and impose Braavosi republicanism.

[worry]

I haven't heard of that but I'll check it out now. Just on the surface I don't hate the idea (at the least, it's very interesting, and I'm too far-removed from book LF at this point to make a call), but I admit I'm hesitant (fairly? unfairly?) to ascribe to him such a high-minded goal. That said, what revolution isn't bloody? And who among the Westerosi have had such intimate dealings with Braavos? Has the Iron Bank actually been funding this scheme all along?

Edit: And now that I think on it, it's at least a more ambitious/far-reaching theory than my own, and gives Baelish the credit his master gamesman reputation demands.

This post has been edited by worry: 25 May 2016 - 02:37 AM

[Andorion]

worry, on 25 May 2016 - 02:34 AM, said:

I haven't heard of that but I'll check it out now. Just on the surface I don't hate the idea (at the least, it's very interesting, and I'm too far-removed from book LF at this point to make a call), but I admit I'm hesitant (fairly? unfairly?) to ascribe to him such a high-minded goal. That said, what revolution isn't bloody? And who among the Westerosi have had such intimate dealings with Braavos? Has the Iron Bank actually been funding this scheme all along?

Edit: And now that I think on it, it's at least a more ambitious/far-reaching theory than my own, and gives Baelish the credit his master gamesman reputation demands.

I am quite dubious about it myself. There are a number of problems with it, especially the practicalities of the scheme.

Its on Westeros

[Tatterdemalion]

I always saw Littlefinger as the counterpoint to Varys. Crumble the realm vs. solidify the realm. Whatever personal gains he makes are due to his own personal quest to see meritocracy through. He wants to break the reign of families and give rise to personal ambition. How hot he stays for such a course may vary as he has become a shell of what he hates.

But I'm also tired at the moment and don't care to fully explain.

I'll end by saying I've been on the Sansa bandwagon since, like, 2000: knowing she would come around in this fashion and ignoring the haters. My three favourite characters as a teen were Tyrion, Arya and Sansa therefore.

[worry]

Yah Sansa rules, obvs.

[Overactive Imagination]

I keep telling myself I'm going to stop watching this show and just wait for the book... but I can't stop watching it. And I don't even like it anymore.

[amphibian]

I think the Aerys mad bc Bran thing won't happen - not because it'll be one type of time travel or not. It is too complicated to show on TV in the tight (and dwindling) episodes remaining.

It would basically have to make us care about a new onscreen character for not much return. I think previously Jaime only talked about Aerys, we didn't see him.

[Traveller]

Still, it's interesting to speculate about the voices and visions from the fire now we've seen the scope of Ravens/Brans abilities. Plus the creation of the 'first'walker.

It's not too far out there to suggest that Ry'llor used to be a human who went into the fire somehow through a ritual.

[Andorion]

One thing I am confused about is Mel. I expected Mel to go on a power trip after she successfully resurrects Jon. Whats more she finally knows how to get R'hllor to listen (say please) Yet she seems very subdued.

[Tapper]

If Bran does try to talk to a Targaryen in the past, then it might be Rhaegar, and then possibly only in the books. Rhaegar is a non-entity at HBO, after all. Rhaegar was said to have experienced something that changed him while young, he is tied to Lyanna (who at the very least series-Bran develops an interest for) and he, more than a mad king executing two nobles, seems to be the lynch pin around which most of the meta-conflict revolves: brother of Daenarys, R + L = J, and nemesis of Robert Baratheon.

As for Littlefinger: I think he's playing kingmaker and his overall plan hasn't really changed: unify the North and the Vale, then get the Tullys on board. What he needs for that, is pairing the easily controlled (and equally easily disposed of) Robert with Sansa, plus doing away with most of the nobility that could claim those positions for themselves. With the south divided, that coalition would actually stand a chance.
Book-Sansa never marries Ramsay, but she may still lead the loyal part of the North and the Vale against the Boltons.
Littlefinger himself would be the power behind the throne, with Robert being clearly unable to rule.

[Khellendros]

worry, on 25 May 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

I've been thinking about Littlefinger, and how people are finding his goals kind of murky right now. Are his plots within plots serving him, why is he making so many alliances, which side is he really playing? I think everyone knows he's on his own side, really, but it's unclear how any of this is serving his rise to the top. But frankly I don't think he's trying to rise to the top. I don't think the wars, the deaths, the destruction are a means to an end. I think they are the end (or at least one of them). In other words, I don't think he's chaotic neutral -- I think he actively, seethingly hates all these people and wants them to die...not as a byproduct of his schemes, but as part and parcel to them. He wants the Vale involved not because they might see victory, but so they'll be just as damaged as the other regions. Maximum attrition on all sides. I'm not downplaying his ambition, cuz I don't think this and the throne are mutually exclusive goals. But his goal isn't to rise to the top; it's to sink everyone else. That goal sits right beside the throne, not subjacent to it.

The episode 'The Climb' was exactly about that. In his monologue at the end, he basically says it's all about the 'climb' over other people, not reaching the top itself. There's always someone else to clamber over and kick down on your way up. In the end, there's something of the Joker's just-wanting-to-see-the-world-burn in the show's Littlefinger.

[Traveller]

Wasn't Ghost the only white Direwolf originally? Summer was looking very white in that episode.

[Terez]

amphibian, on 25 May 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

I think the Aerys mad bc Bran thing won't happen - not because it'll be one type of time travel or not. It is too complicated to show on TV in the tight (and dwindling) episodes remaining.

It would basically have to make us care about a new onscreen character for not much return. I think previously Jaime only talked about Aerys, we didn't see him.

Jaime is part of what makes that scene with Brandon and Rickard compelling, though, especially if Bran somehow (on his path to godhood) contributes to their deaths. And then he gets to see Jaime—the man who threw him from the window—become the Kingslayer with something like justice. Jaime never told that story in full in the show; that doesn't mean they're not planning on using it.

Tapper, on 25 May 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

If Bran does try to talk to a Targaryen in the past, then it might be Rhaegar, and then possibly only in the books. Rhaegar is a non-entity at HBO, after all. Rhaegar was said to have experienced something that changed him while young, he is tied to Lyanna (who at the very least series-Bran develops an interest for) and he, more than a mad king executing two nobles, seems to be the lynch pin around which most of the meta-conflict revolves: brother of Daenarys, R + L = J, and nemesis of Robert Baratheon.

Rhaegar doesn't appear to have been cast for this season, unless they did a really secret casting call for that one. But they might be able to get away with doing this without showing Rhaegar at all. Rhaegar won't be at the Tower of Joy, but part of his story still gets told there, and other parts of his story can be told through Aerys, and Ned.

If we have to choose a lynchpin here, it would be stories connected to Bran's family. That's how he visits the Tower of Joy; that's how he visits the courtyard at Winterfell; that's how he visits the burning of Rickard and Brandon.

Traveller, on 25 May 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

Wasn't Ghost the only white Direwolf originally? Summer was looking very white in that episode.

Yeah, when I first saw him, I was like, why is Ghost there?

[Terez]

Westeros just posted this article from Business Insider on Facebook. They talked to a theoretical physicist who studies time.

Quote

"The short way of saying this is, he didn't change the past, he affected the past," Carroll said.

Which is precisely what I have been saying all along.

[champ]

http://uk.ign.com/ar...all?watch?watch

The first 5 mins of this podcast cover a lot on the time travel aspects.

Very relevant to the discussion. The guy says pretty much what I said earlier.

[Nevyn]

Tapper, on 25 May 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

If Bran does try to talk to a Targaryen in the past, then it might be Rhaegar, and then possibly only in the books. Rhaegar is a non-entity at HBO, after all. Rhaegar was said to have experienced something that changed him while young, he is tied to Lyanna (who at the very least series-Bran develops an interest for) and he, more than a mad king executing two nobles, seems to be the lynch pin around which most of the meta-conflict revolves: brother of Daenarys, R + L = J, and nemesis of Robert Baratheon.

As for Littlefinger: I think he's playing kingmaker and his overall plan hasn't really changed: unify the North and the Vale, then get the Tullys on board. What he needs for that, is pairing the easily controlled (and equally easily disposed of) Robert with Sansa, plus doing away with most of the nobility that could claim those positions for themselves. With the south divided, that coalition would actually stand a chance.
Book-Sansa never marries Ramsay, but she may still lead the loyal part of the North and the Vale against the Boltons.
Littlefinger himself would be the power behind the throne, with Robert being clearly unable to rule.

Yes, Rhaegar would make more sense. The musician and bookworm who decided he had to become a warrior for some reason.

But still unlikely in the show.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 25 May 2016 - 01:45 PM

[Tatterdemalion]

Traveller, on 25 May 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

Wasn't Ghost the only white Direwolf originally? Summer was looking very white in that episode.

Since no one's mentioning this... yeah, WTF. He totally looked like Ghost.

The deaths pre Hold the Door were the worst and cheesiest part of the episode, IMO.

Why pause to try to act like we care about a tree sprite? The fuck does Meera give for them?

[worry]

You mean Leaf and co.? She saved their lives at the end of season 4, and presumably has been a constant in their daily lives since then. I doubt any of the humans have been providing the food they've been living on. There's not much on-screen meat to them for viewers, but it makes sense for the characters to care.

Summer was definitely much darker (and kinda stripey) in the first season, but has fairly pale since then.