[blackzoid]

Tough gut wrenching episode.

But the one thing that stuck with me is how absurd Littlefinger's teleporting is actually getting. Hes gone from The Vale to the Wall in two consecutive episodes! Screw the White Walkers and the Dragons, with that kind of power, Littlefinger could pretty much conquer the world. Why hasnt Littlefinger used this power to transport armies across the world site-to-site? The power to appear anywhere would be a massive strategic benefit!

[Battalion]

I think the 'teleporting' could be little more than staggered time. When we see him in the Vale, they could be just showing us events from weeks ago.

[QuickTidal]

So, rumour has it that Joseph Mawle is listed as being in the next episode...but is listed as "Brother Beyond the Wall" and not as Benjen...could Benjen be who will come to Bran and Meera's aid? Is this "brother" character the show's version of Coldhands?

Only time will tell, but I think that Benjen needs to come back soon.

Oh, and Kristian Nairn has been coy about whether Hodor is actually dead. We didn't SEE him die, he has giant blood, and I THINK that a Giant who dies doesn't automatically become a Wight like a human...a White Walker would have to do the magic to reanimate them (like they do horses)...so unless the Night King and his lieutenants are going to reanimate a dead Hodor...it's certainly POSSIBLE that Hodor survives his holding of the door.

Also, re: Bran affecting the past...if he IS Bran the Builder and helps to construct the Wall that would make sense from a warging POV possibly?

I'm more inclined to think that it's Bran who accidentally drives The Mad King (Aerys II) insane. Think about it, Aerys rule was mostly benevolent and uneventful for a long time...he only went mad later in life...and what was the thing he kept repeating? "Burn them, burn them all!"....right, so what if Bran was trying to warn Aerys II about the Wights and White Walkers, and tells him that fire is the only thing that works on the wights and Aerys is driven insane (brain scrambled like young Wyllis/Hodor?) by the visions and clings to the idea that fire is the only solution...and who does he kill? Rickard and Brandon Stark (Winterfell being that far north) and kicking off the Rebellion into full swing, resulting in the Tower of Joy sequence.

That makes IMMENSE sense to me. Far more so that Bran the Builder, which is tenuous as I think that woudl require Bran to get stuck in his own ancestors body somehow to achieve (and what link does Bran have to the giants who helped raise the Wall?).

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 24 May 2016 - 02:04 PM

[Terez]

The Aerys theory doesn't make any sense to me either. Why on earth would Bran try to warn Aerys about the White Walkers, when he knows that Aerys died long before they became a threat? The Bran the Builder thing makes even less sense, though.

IMO Nairn is not being particularly coy about his death; when I read his post-death interview, I got the impression he was struggling to maintain the "anything is possible" feel of the show this season, with the return of Jon, but he wasn't doing a very good job of it.

My guess it Brother Beyond the Wall is just Coldhands. And since GRRM said that Coldhands is not Benjen, if it turns out he is Benjen in the show, it would basically be fanservice. IMDb has trolled us before so I would be wary; it's user-edited and while I gather they have some kind of modding going on, it's not perfect by any means.

Speaking of fanservice, I have to wonder if they're going to do Cleganebowl and Hound=valonqar just because they can, not because of anything GRRM told them.

Edit: I did some googling, and according to WIC Mawle was listed on IMDb for "Hardhome" last year.

This post has been edited by Terez: 24 May 2016 - 02:17 PM

[Andorion]

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

The Aerys theory doesn't make any sense to me either. Why on earth would Bran try to warn Aerys about the White Walkers, when he knows that Aerys died long before they became a threat? The Bran the Builder thing makes even less sense, though.

IMO Nairn is not being particularly coy about his death; when I read his post-death interview, I got the impression he was struggling to maintain the "anything is possible" feel of the show this season, with the return of Jon, but he wasn't doing a very good job of it.

My guess it Brother Beyond the Wall is just Coldhands. And since GRRM said that Coldhands is not Benjen, if it turns out he is Benjen in the show, it would basically be fanservice. IMDb has trolled us before so I would be wary; it's user-edited and while I gather they have some kind of modding going on, it's not perfect by any means.

Speaking of fanservice, I have to wonder if they're going to do Cleganebowl and Hound=valonqar just because they can, not because of anything GRRM told them.

Isn't the next episode titled Blood of my Blood? Bran + Benjen = Blood relatives

[Terez]

Yes, well, I imagine that will have something to do with Dany.

[Andorion]

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Yes, well, I imagine that will have something to do with Dany.

But who does she have as a blood relative? Then they have to make the Jon revelation next episode.

[Terez]

It's a Dothraki address for bloodriders. "I ask your oath, that will live and die as blood of my blood, riding at my side to keep me safe from harm." Dany referred to her bloodriders as "blood of my blood", but all of her original bloodriders are dead now.

[Andorion]

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

It's a Dothraki address for bloodriders. "I ask your oath, that will live and die as blood of my blood, riding at my side to keep me safe from harm." Dany referred to her bloodriders as "blood of my blood", but all of her original bloodriders are dead now.

I know. Thats what I thought first when I saw the title - Bloodriders. But then I remembered they are all dead. Then I thought Dany gets new ones. But then I remembered that I thought "Door" meant Red Door and we were going to get a Dany childhood flashback. So I decided not to take the names literally.

[Terez]

Well, 'blood of my blood' is a more obvious reference than 'the door' ever was. But I'm sure there will be other family matters in the next episode. There are always family matters in GOT.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

The Aerys theory doesn't make any sense to me either. Why on earth would Bran try to warn Aerys about the White Walkers, when he knows that Aerys died long before they became a threat?

It makes a decent amount of sense actually.

1. He would go to Aerys II becuase he was the last stable king BEFORE Westeros descended into rebellions, war, and anarchy? Think about it, you can't warn Robert (no point, he doesn't care or believe), and you can't warn anyone after him Joffrey or Cersei...but moreover you don't warn the king who sits the iron throne WHILE the White Walkers are a threat, you warn them BEFORE they are one. Preventative maintenance. While there are still standing armies united under one king who can take on the threat that is coming.

2. It's not like Bran has the Bloodraven's skill at going to specific events in his visions...look at the one time he did it on his own? He sees the damned Night King and lets him touch his arm. Chances he goes to Aerys II are as good as if he goes anywhere else.

RE: Benjen, Benjen is one of the only characters to never have an onscreen death in the books (or the show for that matter)...and to have the other two killed for sure...and Benjen's horse wandering back to Castle Black? Benjen is alive (or undead) for the sole reason that narratively there is no other reason for GRRM to not have had his actual death or an appearance since Book 1. He made an intentional choice to do that. That's not something a guy who shows EVERYONE'S death does lightly. Mark my words.

If Benjen ISN'T Coldhands, or some facsimile thereof...he's somewhere up there for sure. And SOMEONE has to come save Meera and Bran...they are not surviving on their own.

EDIT: I'm thinking that's him at 1:19 of this trailer taking out a Wight with a firebrand.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 24 May 2016 - 03:09 PM

[Terez]

Bran can't actually change the past. That was well established with the Hodor scene; whatever he manages to affect in the past has already happened.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Bran can't actually change the past. That was well established with the Hodor scene; whatever he manages to affect in the past has already happened.

No, wrong. It's a causality loop. What happens happens because of his presence there and the link to his present (Meera saying Hold the Door). This episode shares the director of the finest episode of LOST (Jack Bender) that ever was made, THE CONSTANT, which also deals with this very specific type of causality time loop. It's very much on purpose when you read the interview with Bender about both eps.

Basically, Bran's warged connection to Hodor in the present and his greenseeing into the past, means Meera's comments filter through to Young Wyllis through that link (accidentally scrambling Wyllis's mind in the past) and he actually sees his own future death (or at least the door event). It's a complex version of quantum entanglement where Hodor's present and past selves are affected by a "constant"...which is Bran.

If Bran isn't present, none of that happens at all...but of course he is present because it did happen (and Hodor has been this way since he's known him). But that doesn't change the fact that it happens BECAUSE of Bran's presence in the time loop. Bran changed the past...just not in the way you are used to.

We saw this established in the Tower of Joy scene when he calls out to his father and Ned hears him. He's not physically there but some part of him has time traveled and that part is what his father hears briefly.

It's not traditional time travel (like BTTF, or Terminator), more of a connection through your own blood type of thing VIA your mind, and as a result Bran can have a HEAVY effect on the events that come to pass, or have already come to pass...so if he's the whispers in Aerys II's ear which drive him mad...yes Aerys II was historically mad...but Bran can still be the causality which created it.

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 24 May 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Bran can't actually change the past. That was well established with the Hodor scene; whatever he manages to affect in the past has already happened.

No, wrong. It's a causality loop. What happens happens because of his presence there and the link to his present (Meera saying Hold the Door). This episode shares the director of the finest episode of LOST (Jack Bender) that ever was made, THE CONSTANT, which also deals with this very specific type of causality time loop. It's very much on purpose when you read the interview with Bender about both eps.

lol. This is not Lost, and the director doesn't write the scripts. It's well established by Bloodraven in the books that you can't change the past. Whatever words you use to describe it, Hodor wasn't changing the past because that event had already happened. Trying to convince Aerys to do something about the White Walkers would be trying to change what has already happened, and that can't be done. Bran could however whisper in Aerys's ear just to make him go crazy, if he wanted. Because that happened. But why would he?

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 24 May 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Bran can't actually change the past. That was well established with the Hodor scene; whatever he manages to affect in the past has already happened.

No, wrong. It's a causality loop. What happens happens because of his presence there and the link to his present (Meera saying Hold the Door). This episode shares the director of the finest episode of LOST (Jack Bender) that ever was made, THE CONSTANT, which also deals with this very specific type of causality time loop. It's very much on purpose when you read the interview with Bender about both eps.

Basically, Bran's warged connection to Hodor in the present and his greenseeing into the past, means Meera's comments filter through to Young Wyllis through that link (accidentally scrambling Wyllis's mind in the past) and he actually sees his own future death (or at least the door event). It's a complex version of quantum entanglement where Hodor's present and past selves are affected by a "constant"...which is Bran.

If Bran isn't present, none of that happens at all...but of course he is present because it did happen (and Hodor has been this way since he's known him). But that doesn't change the fact that it happens BECAUSE of Bran's presence in the time loop. Bran changed the past...just not in the way you are used to.

We saw this established in the Tower of Joy scene when he calls out to his father and Ned hears him. He's not physically there but some part of him has time traveled and that part is what his father hears briefly.

It's not traditional time travel (like BTTF, or Terminator), more of a connection through your own blood type of thing VIA your mind, and as a result Bran can have a HEAVY effect on the events that come to pass, or have already come to pass...so if he's the whispers in Aerys II's ear which drive him mad...yes Aerys II was historically mad...but Bran can still be the causality which created it.

Right, but Terez's point is that what Bran can change, we have already seen the effects of.

He is already in his causality loop. Which is why Hodor always seemed like Hodor. So if Bran tries to warn Aerys, whatever effect that has will simply result in where the story is now, anyway.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 24 May 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 24 May 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Terez, on 24 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Bran can't actually change the past. That was well established with the Hodor scene; whatever he manages to affect in the past has already happened.

No, wrong. It's a causality loop. What happens happens because of his presence there and the link to his present (Meera saying Hold the Door). This episode shares the director of the finest episode of LOST (Jack Bender) that ever was made, THE CONSTANT, which also deals with this very specific type of causality time loop. It's very much on purpose when you read the interview with Bender about both eps.

Basically, Bran's warged connection to Hodor in the present and his greenseeing into the past, means Meera's comments filter through to Young Wyllis through that link (accidentally scrambling Wyllis's mind in the past) and he actually sees his own future death (or at least the door event). It's a complex version of quantum entanglement where Hodor's present and past selves are affected by a "constant"...which is Bran.

If Bran isn't present, none of that happens at all...but of course he is present because it did happen (and Hodor has been this way since he's known him). But that doesn't change the fact that it happens BECAUSE of Bran's presence in the time loop. Bran changed the past...just not in the way you are used to.

We saw this established in the Tower of Joy scene when he calls out to his father and Ned hears him. He's not physically there but some part of him has time traveled and that part is what his father hears briefly.

It's not traditional time travel (like BTTF, or Terminator), more of a connection through your own blood type of thing VIA your mind, and as a result Bran can have a HEAVY effect on the events that come to pass, or have already come to pass...so if he's the whispers in Aerys II's ear which drive him mad...yes Aerys II was historically mad...but Bran can still be the causality which created it.

Right, but Terez's point is that what Bran can change, we have already seen the effects of.

He is already in his causality loop. Which is why Hodor always seemed like Hodor. So if Bran tries to warn Aerys, whatever effect that has will simply result in where the story is now, anyway.

Right and MY point is that it may be Bran who caused Aerys to go mad in the first place. It's an event that happens/has happened, and Bran whispering to Aerys to try to get him to help is believable (especially with no more Bloodraven to help him figure out how and what he's doing). I'm not saying Bran is actively aware of what he can and can't accomplish when he greensees...rather the opposite, he thinks he can change things and is instead simply the cause of other things...hence causality loop.

Same would be true of the Bran The Builder theory...he is that same Bran because he went back to do those things...which already happened and affected them.

So Bran CAN change the past...he just doesn't know how, or what it affects, or any of those variables...but those loops occur because of his catalystic presence.

And be aware that just because we've only seen him do this twice, doesn't immediately mean his powers won't grow or change. I mean we've just established a causality loop on a fantasy show. The sky is now the limit on what Bran may be able to do as things progress and he becomes better and better at his powers.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 24 May 2016 - 03:48 PM

[champ]

From that theory, QT, I don't think it's a case that Bran CAN change the past.

He would have already changed/impacted it and he would just see how he did it.

[Terez]

Bran may be inexperienced, but he's not stupid; he will have realized that what he did to Hodor had already happened and extrapolated from that. You think it's believable that 1) he's too stupid to have figured that out, and 2) he would make his appeal to Aerys of all people. I don't think that's believable at all.

Bran can affect things in the past. That's not the same thing as changing the past at all.

[Cause]

Except its also established that the targaryans are prone to madness because of generations of inbreeding. Aerys is by no means unique in being crazy. So Im not sure I like the idea that Bran made him crazy. The Targs also have a long history with fire as well.

[Terez]

The Aerys and Bran the Builder theories are really big on reddit; I just pass them over and go on to more interesting threads. People saw that episode and they were all OMG TIME TRAVEL and started brainstorming other things in the past that Bran might "change". It's all pretty harebrained. The only theory of any worth to come out of that is the theory that Bran created Coldhands with his greenseeing somehow. That's a little more believable, but still problematic. Bran can't warg just anyone, and if he was actually warging the dead Crow, then how would he know about the Black Gate? The Crow would know, but the Crow is presumably dead, right? I dunno...maybe that could be explained somehow.