[Garak]

Regarding why they are breaking Theon. Their house crest is a flayed man (comforting) and the guy doing the breaking is a sadistic little piece of ****.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

The point behind this entire "Take Castle Black" escapes me. Let us assume that they succeed. The only thing they accomplish is unhindered passage for the Wild-lings to the South. The ice zombies are coming. Running way will just delay the inevitable.

Well, first, the people they'd be killing at Castle black are the night's watch who they hate and who have hunted them. Second, which side of the wall would you rather be on with the ice zombies coming? If they don't get past the wall, what's their plan B?

Quote

Question: The Hound was hiding around and he grabs Arya. But the Brotherhood maintains a very strict watch and recon patrols. How come they didn't spot him?

Because story. Also an outlaw organization can't just openly patrol everywhere. This is a war torn no mans land.

Quote

Theon

I get that they are trying to break Theon mentally as well as physically but why?

They? Also, because fun.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 14 October 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

The point behind this entire "Take Castle Black" escapes me. Let us assume that they succeed. The only thing they accomplish is unhindered passage for the Wild-lings to the South. The ice zombies are coming. Running way will just delay the inevitable.

Well, first, the people they'd be killing at Castle black are the night's watch who they hate and who have hunted them. Second, which side of the wall would you rather be on with the ice zombies coming? If they don't get past the wall, what's their plan B?

Quote

Question: The Hound was hiding around and he grabs Arya. But the Brotherhood maintains a very strict watch and recon patrols. How come they didn't spot him?

Because story. Also an outlaw organization can't just openly patrol everywhere. This is a war torn no mans land.

Quote

Theon

I get that they are trying to break Theon mentally as well as physically but why?

They? Also, because fun.

The unmanned wall isn't really a very serious barrier.

But the Hound was just about 5 minutes away from their HQ.

Yeah I get that guy is a sadist, and a psychopath (another one) I just thought there would be a plan here.



Anyway all of this is beside the point. I just finished the season.

[acesn8s]

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 14 October 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

The point behind this entire "Take Castle Black" escapes me. Let us assume that they succeed. The only thing they accomplish is unhindered passage for the Wild-lings to the South. The ice zombies are coming. Running way will just delay the inevitable.

Well, first, the people they'd be killing at Castle black are the night's watch who they hate and who have hunted them. Second, which side of the wall would you rather be on with the ice zombies coming? If they don't get past the wall, what's their plan B?

Quote

Question: The Hound was hiding around and he grabs Arya. But the Brotherhood maintains a very strict watch and recon patrols. How come they didn't spot him?

Because story. Also an outlaw organization can't just openly patrol everywhere. This is a war torn no mans land.

Quote

Theon

I get that they are trying to break Theon mentally as well as physically but why?

They? Also, because fun.

Anyway all of this is beside the point. I just finished the season.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

The unmanned wall isn't really a very serious barrier.

The issue isn't that the wall will keep the walkers out. It is that is IS keeping the wildlings IN.

Quote

Yeah I get that guy is a sadist, and a psychopath (another one) I just thought there would be a plan here.

Sometimes being a sadist is the plan. The books will explain further. In the meantime, it will become clear where the story is more or less going.

Think of it this way, he is not just torturing him, he is psychologically breaking him. But the why goes back more or less to sadism.

Quote

Anyway all of this is beside the point. I just finished the season.

Tada! fewer boring storylines!

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 14 October 2015 - 02:12 PM

[End of Disc One]

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

Lannisters. Every scene with them is pure gold

I see what you did there

[Andorion]

Season 3. Episode 8-10.

Right. Now because I am human, use the internet and am alive I knew there was something called "The Red Wedding" and people would die there. Thats all I knew. Silly me. I had assumed the Red Wedding would be an episode title. Apparently its a nickname. I had assumed it referred to the Tyrell-Lannister royal wedding. So I was completely blindsided.

Funnily enough, just before this I was chatting with my brother and I told him all that stuff about people dying in GoT is blown way out of proportion as not too many main characters had died.

And then this happens.

So I knew Bolton couldn't be trusted and that Frey was very likely to be vindictive. But the scale of the plan! Wipe out the top echelons of two Great houses at one single blow! So this is why Tywin was never very worried. He was probably in touch with both Frey and Bolton

The strangest thing is that this massacre which I guess absolutely overwhelmed the audience when it aired is actually making me kind of happy. No more Catelyn, no more Robb. That storyline was weak and going nowhere. Too bad about Talisa though.

Greyjoy
Yara is going to fight to get Theon back? This should be interesting.

The North


So Bran finally manages to use his powers.

Jons story was tough. I was pretty sure he was going to stick with Ygritte

Stannis


I do not understand Melisandres logic. She won't simply cut Gendry as fear is bad for the blood (I think) but has no problems with tying him down and putting leeches on him?

Also is she claiming the Red Wedding as her credit? Then how come Joffrey didn't die as well?

I like Davos but he reminds me of Ned Stark. A bit too fond of doing the right thing. Hope he doesn't die

Arya


Arya - so near yet so far.

Her story is so sad, but episode 10 showed once again why I love her, Just plain stabbed the guy with a knife the Hound never noticed she took!

The Hound and she are an odd pair but interesting. I wonder what they will do now.

Kings Landing


Tyrions wedding nearly went very wrong but was saved mainly due to Tywin, resident firefighter. Joffrey is such a .... petty idiot.

But I loved Cersei snubbing Loras.

And then Tywin simply flattening Joffrey in the Council.

I don't see how Tyrion is going to resolve matters with Che though

Dany

This is the part that confused me the most

How did Jorah, Greyworm and the new guy fight their way out of there? It seemed they were outnumbered heavily,

Also how is Dany planning to feed so many freed slaves? In fact the logistics of her army are a mystery to me.

Overall


So now the strategic picture has changed entirely.


The Lannisters have secured the North through Bolton, Riverrun is in disarray.


The Tyrells are their allies.


Stannis and the Greyjoys are enemies but I think the Greyjoys can be compromised with. A lot will depend on what Stannis will do.


Littlefinger is to secure the Vale though I am dubious about that.


And Dorne has yet to become a factor.


Thing is the real enemy has raised its head at last. The North is in a shambles and in no position to fight. I somehow don't see the LAnnisters taking this very seriously.


A very interesting factor is that Sam was able to kill a Walker with a Dragonsblood dagger which is obsidian(?) So methods exist but I don't think Obsidian weapons are very common.


What they need is some T'lan Imass back up

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

The strangest thing is that this massacre which I guess absolutely overwhelmed the audience when it aired is actually making me kind of happy. No more Catelyn, no more Robb. That storyline was weak and going nowhere. Too bad about Talisa though.

Not everyone likes the same things, and people by default tend to root for protaganists. They are not used to them losing disastrously and dying en masse in grizzly fashion.

There was ample foreshadowing that the Starks had set themselves up for trouble, but one usually thinks the heroes will miraculously fight their way free.

Quote

Also is she claiming the Red Wedding as her credit? Then how come Joffrey didn't die as well?

Melisandre will claim everything that goes as she said to her credit. Is she right? Up to the viewer/reader to decide.

Quote

How did Jorah, Greyworm and the new guy fight their way out of there? It seemed they were outnumbered heavily,

Also how is Dany planning to feed so many freed slaves? In fact the logistics of her army are a mystery to me.

She is a teenaged girl. Who says she has logistics.

Quote

A very interesting factor is that Sam was able to kill a Walker with a Dragonsblood dagger which is obsidian(?) So methods exist but I don't think Obsidian weapons are very common.

Not dragonsblood. Dragonglass.

And yes it is obsidian.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 14 October 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Andorion, on 14 October 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

The strangest thing is that this massacre which I guess absolutely overwhelmed the audience when it aired is actually making me kind of happy. No more Catelyn, no more Robb. That storyline was weak and going nowhere. Too bad about Talisa though.

Not everyone likes the same things, and people by default tend to root for protaganists. They are not used to them losing disastrously and dying en masse in grizzly fashion.

There was ample foreshadowing that the Starks had set themselves up for trouble, but one usually thinks the heroes will miraculously fight their way free.

Quote

Also is she claiming the Red Wedding as her credit? Then how come Joffrey didn't die as well?

Melisandre will claim everything that goes as she said to her credit. Is she right? Up to the viewer/reader to decide.

Quote

How did Jorah, Greyworm and the new guy fight their way out of there? It seemed they were outnumbered heavily,

Also how is Dany planning to feed so many freed slaves? In fact the logistics of her army are a mystery to me.

She is a teenaged girl. Who says she has logistics.

Quote

A very interesting factor is that Sam was able to kill a Walker with a Dragonsblood dagger which is obsidian(?) So methods exist but I don't think Obsidian weapons are very common.

Not dragonsblood. Dragonglass.

And yes it is obsidian.

Uh logistics are not optional. By my count she has an 18000 strong army plus at least that number or more in non-combatants. Feeding and supplying that kind of a group is a matter of daily concern. It would cost a lot of money. Those two little chests of gold she confiscated wouldn't go very far.

She may not know anything about these things but Jorah and Barristan would. I don't see this matter addressed at all. It was an issue earlier when Dany was trying to get a ship from Qarth.

How is she getting money? Is she pillaging these cities?

[Gorefest]

Let's say yes. How much detail do you really expect in a tv series without putting the audience to sleep?

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 15 October 2015 - 10:38 AM

[Andorion]

Gorefest, on 15 October 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Let's say yes. How much detail do you really expect in a tv series without putting the audience to sleep?

It wouldn't have taken much. Just an off-hand remark like "And how do you plan to feed these people Khalisee" or "We may need to revise our estimates" something like that to just show they haven't ignored that completely. I like details.

I don't remember who but somebody said something about amateurs and tactics, professionals and logistics. Then Napoleon said an army marches on its stomach. In a military context an absence of logistics is absurd to say the least.



Another detail: why did Ghost abandon Jon? I think it was somewhere when he first met Ygritte. I am still trying to figure out this direwolf connection. Is there even a connection, long-term?

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 15 October 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

It wouldn't have taken much. Just an off-hand remark like "And how do you plan to feed these people Khalisee" or "We may need to revise our estimates" something like that to just show they haven't ignored that completely. I like details.

I don't remember who but somebody said something about amateurs and tactics, professionals and logistics. Then Napoleon said an army marches on its stomach. In a military context an absence of logistics is absurd to say the least.

There have been huge armies tearing apart the riverlands for 2 seasons, and no logistics details in Westeros save for the odd bit about the crown borrowing money and High Garden providing food. Different fantasy writers give more details on different things, and gloss over the ones they care less about.

There is more detail in the books, but still don't expect a detailed accounting. And again, Dany is a pretty young girl. Her advisers may be used to leading armies, but not so much feeding followers.

You are right, just keep watching and reading.

Quote

Another detail: why did Ghost abandon Jon? I think it was somewhere when he first met Ygritte. I am still trying to figure out this direwolf connection. Is there even a connection, long-term?

Pretty sure Ghost and John split up when he has to scale the wall, because a wolf can't.

The connection is meant to be fuzzy in the show. Beyond Bran, they are glorified ultra loyal guard wolves. But I am pretty sure even in the show, some wildlings refer to Jon as a warg. So just loyal pet, or do other Starks maybe have a watered down version of some of Bran's ability?

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 15 October 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

Andorion, on 15 October 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

It wouldn't have taken much. Just an off-hand remark like "And how do you plan to feed these people Khalisee" or "We may need to revise our estimates" something like that to just show they haven't ignored that completely. I like details.

I don't remember who but somebody said something about amateurs and tactics, professionals and logistics. Then Napoleon said an army marches on its stomach. In a military context an absence of logistics is absurd to say the least.

There have been huge armies tearing apart the riverlands for 2 seasons, and no logistics details in Westeros save for the odd bit about the crown borrowing money and High Garden providing food. Different fantasy writers give more details on different things, and gloss over the ones they care less about.

There is more detail in the books, but still don't expect a detailed accounting. And again, Dany is a pretty young girl. Her advisers may be used to leading armies, but not so much feeding followers.

You are right, just keep watching and reading.

Quote

Another detail: why did Ghost abandon Jon? I think it was somewhere when he first met Ygritte. I am still trying to figure out this direwolf connection. Is there even a connection, long-term?

Pretty sure Ghost and John split up when he has to scale the wall, because a wolf can't.

The connection is meant to be fuzzy in the show. Beyond Bran, they are glorified ultra loyal guard wolves. But I am pretty sure even in the show, some wildlings refer to Jon as a warg. So just loyal pet, or do other Starks maybe have a watered down version of some of Bran's ability?

No Ghost split up earlier. I think Sam saw him in the woods.

I don't recall any wildling calling Jon a warg.

Regarding logistics, in Westeros its different. Bands of warriors unite under Great House banner sto go to war, and its taken for granted that they are supported by a logistical machine.

But Dany is different. She had no pre-existing army. She got it really fast from two cities, almost overnight. Before she had a retinue of around 20+. That overnight jumps to 10000. First question: Payment, equipment maintenance, food.

Also her age doesn't matter. If she doesn't have a support mechanism that army will cease to exist. They will split up and disband. If they are fanatically loyal they will starve. For the sake of narrative plausibility it would have been a good idea to include at least a couple of two-sentence dialogues about feeding the extra mouths. Spread over three or so episodes it would hardly have been more boring than Osha bickering and Jon's romance.

Also I am noticing a pattern. Three seasons in a row have ended with something uplifting involving Dany and 2 seasons have ended with a huge event in episode 9 and episode 10 being comparatively less sensational.

[Nevyn]

My bad on ghost.

Done talking about Dany. Her age was about hinting that just because you have not heard dialogue about logistics, doesn't mean her choices won't cause problems. Beyond that, you will never get the level of logistical detail you clearly want. For now, assume any deal to buy 8000+ slave soldiers would include provisioning for them, that a mercenary company have their own resources and logistics, and that sacking 2 cities can feed a bunch of slave followers in the short term.

In the long term, we'll see. Kinda depends on where she goes and what she does next, right?

[Andorion]

Fair enough. I am obsessing too much over logistics.


One thing strikes me though. The dragons are Dany's best ace. Yet they are getting bigger, Will they remain obedient to Dany always? I mean after they leave childhood and enter adolescence (anthropocentric I know, but I bet dragons have stages of development)


I wonder how Aegon and Co. controlled their dragons

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 15 October 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

Fair enough. I am obsessing too much over logistics.

One thing strikes me though. The dragons are Dany's best ace. Yet they are getting bigger, Will they remain obedient to Dany always? I mean after they leave childhood and enter adolescence (anthropocentric I know, but I bet dragons have stages of development)

Interesting question.

Quote

I wonder how Aegon and Co. controlled their dragons

Some of the ancillary background material has gotten into this a little over the years, but not in super broad detail. In the early years and back in Valyria and on Dragonstone, who really knows.

One of the Kings of Westeros (Maegor the cruel I think) eventually builds the Dragonpit to house the dragons, but that either coincides with or causes the slow decline of the race (dragons getting progressively smaller)

[Gorefest]

Andorion, on 15 October 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

One thing strikes me though. The dragons are Dany's best ace. Yet they are getting bigger, Will they remain obedient to Dany always? I mean after they leave childhood and enter adolescence (anthropocentric I know, but I bet dragons have stages of development)

All very much WAFO, I'm afraid. Not something we can say anything about at this time, but it will indeed start playing a bigger role as the series progresses.

[Andorion]

Game of Thrones, Season 4, Episodes 1 and 2.

Back to watching after a bit of a break, and Season 4 is not slacking around.

The North

Bran's vision did not make a lot of sense. A dragon above the capital, yet snow falling on the throne? Are these possible futures? I suppose this is all WAFO
Anybody else get reminded of the opening of Warcraft 3 with the three eyed crow dreams?

I wonder how the NIght's Watch are going to defend anything with their numerical inferiority, especially if the commander doesn't even believe that the Wildlings can unite.

Arya

Arya's segment was as usual extremely entertaining. She finally gets Needle back and she is becoming quite the killer. That prediction of Darkness Melisandre made may not be BS after all.

Bolton

This was extremely interesting as its finally made clear why they wanted Theon in the first place. But of course Ramsey goes psycho. Roose Bolton is a cool customer though and following him is going to be interesting.

Kings Landing


The Valyrian steel sword melted down. Was that Ice?

Cersei's line to Jaime: "You took too long" I found this hilarious for some reason.

So did Che make it out? I was half afraid she would be in the cake.

I like this Dornish guy. Very interesting addition to the cast.

Why did Jaime seem so confident that Loras wouldn't marry Cersei?

Now the rest doesn't really matter because of the ending of Episode 2.

I was going to say that Joffrey was making way too many people angry, and well it seems like someone got to him

I didn't see this coming at all. Thing is who did it? Of the great houses, Stark is out, Vale is passive, Rivverrun is out, Greyjoy probably can't reach here.

That leaves Tyrell - no discernible motive, in fact this is a great blow to them

Dorne - definite motive

Stannis - Light magic?

Internal Lannister motive:
Jaime is angry at Joffrey,
Tywin maybe playing a game, maybe Tommen is more tractable,
Cersei....she may not want to lose her regency.... but unlikely

Independent players:

Varys: he has been pretty sulky lately
The Maester: No motive

Were those dead pigeons inside the cake? Could this entire thing have been an accident due to contaminated cake?

Side note: I was browsing through the threads in the ASOIAF forum, and there was this thread on why people shouldn't celebrate that Joffrey is dead and then it spiralled off into justice and legality etc. I found the very idea to be very odd. I wasn't thinking of celebrating when I realised he was dying, I was thinking of causes and effects. The political implications of this are fascinating. Tommen will probably succeed and this will cement even more surely Tywin and Cersei's power, while the Tyrells will lose a great deal of influence. In fact Margery's life maybe in danger.

Is there a lot of celebration/lamentation in the GoT fandom regarding deaths? I usually try to only see them in the way they affect the story.

Edit: I was right! The Dragons are getting to be more of a handful.

This post has been edited by Andorion: 27 October 2015 - 07:15 AM

[worry]

The birds are dead because of Joffrey's chopping of the cake. The sword was indeed Ice.

Anyway, this season just don't quit. Even the quieter moments ain't exactly lulls.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 27 October 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Bran's vision did not make a lot of sense. A dragon above the capital, yet snow falling on the throne? Are these possible futures? I suppose this is all WAFO

We are all still WAFOing for some of this. But thematically snow is associated with walkers/darkness/long night. And dragons are associated with fire/light. So it would not be a shocker for the final battle between ice and fire to turn one way or the other at King's landing.

It could also be more of a marker of when Dany will arrive (when the snows get that far south)

Quote

The Valyrian steel sword melted down. Was that Ice?

Yep

Quote

So did Che make it out? I was half afraid she would be in the cake.

WAFO

Quote

Why did Jaime seem so confident that Loras wouldn't marry Cersei?

Trying to remember the exact scene but if I recall the context it would mainly be about Jaime knowing Cersei's wilfulness.

Now the rest doesn't really matter because of the ending of Episode 2.

Quote

I didn't see this coming at all. Thing is who did it?

Admirable attempt to guess at the responsible party, but one of the limitations you face trying it is you only know what the directors have shown you to date, which makes motive hard to read. And also you are analyzing motive based on assumptions of the consequences.


Also you just looked at motive. What about means and opportunity?

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 27 October 2015 - 02:02 PM