[Studlock]

So, partially inspired by this thread, and partially because I just really like sociology of aesthetics and Bourdieu's work on taste, dominate and dominated aesthetics, and symbolic violence in particular, I might actually run a small study with the music students at my university if I can convince my adviser its a good idea (sociology of aesthetics is not really close to what I'm studying, but its related to my overall theory of power that I think I should write something about it). Hurray!

The study will be looking at how the 'elites' (non the term I'll use but it presents the idea well enough) of music, aka the academics, or taste makers, view hip-hop, and if that view falls in line Bourdieu work of taste. It will be a qualitative study in which I interview, in-depth, mostly undergraduate music students, but also (hopefully) graduate students, and instructors.

[Terez]

I have often thought about doing such a study, but in order for it to be useful for me it would have to be a thorough one, where each participant's tastes are thoroughly documented and rated and their musical talent (ability to distinguish tones, etc.) is thoroughly measured. And I wouldn't limit it to academics because that particular distinction has a lot of non-musical elements involved. You can find talented musicians in music schools, and you can find talented musicians on the street. For the love of data I'd like to know each participant's background in music academia but my main interest is the musical tastes of those who have the best musical ears.

The best method for such a study would probably be a take-home survey on the tastes with plenty of time to think about it, and a flexible rating system (divide any multiple of 10 into points which can be assigned to composers/songwriters, individual works, and performers in separate categories). Maybe also lyricists for the love of data. The survey gets turned in when the participant shows up for the talent test. This is where it gets significant how much music training a person has had. You can administer the test to literally anyone who isn't deaf or otherwise significantly impaired, starting with the ability to match a single tone, the ability to mimic intervals, etc. Someone who is musically trained should be able to do this more easily because practice does augment talent. But they can also be tested at higher levels.

This post has been edited by Terez: 21 January 2016 - 09:54 PM

[worry]

I'm glad to hear that, Studlock, and hope you get to do it. I'd particularly like to see the difference between "elites" and "non-elites" answers when you pose the question "O.P.P. How can you explain it?"

[QuickTidal]

I FULLY blame Roman Mars on the 99% Invisible podcast for getting this earworm song in my head.

But I quite like this.

[stone monkey]

Dumbledude, on 22 January 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

I'm glad to hear that, Studlock, and hope you get to do it. I'd particularly like to see the difference between "elites" and "non-elites" answers when you pose the question "O.P.P. How can you explain it?"

Presumably you'd have to "Take it frame-by-frame it..." Although we do know that for the last P, "that's not so simple." Some temple-scratching might be in order.

[worry]

stone monkey, on 16 February 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Dumbledude, on 22 January 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

I'm glad to hear that, Studlock, and hope you get to do it. I'd particularly like to see the difference between "elites" and "non-elites" answers when you pose the question "O.P.P. How can you explain it?"

Presumably you'd have to "Take it frame-by-frame it..." Although we do know that for the last P, "that's not so simple." Some temple-scratching might be in order.

I read this a couple weeks ago and found it rather endearing how much Treach thinks it was a genuine mystery to people:
https://www.thrillis...-by-natures-opp

[QuickTidal]

So, at what point does everyone say that this guy has mental health issues that he probably needs help for?

http://pagesix.com/2...d-snl-meltdown/

I mean, stuff like the above audio is literally the hallmark of someone with such problems.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 February 2016 - 02:46 PM

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 18 February 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

So, at what point does everyone say that this guy has mental health issues that he probably needs help for?

http://pagesix.com/2...d-snl-meltdown/

I mean, stuff like the above audio is literally the hallmark of someone with such problems.

Many think his recent Twitter meltdown was a publicity stunt but this..... reminds me of megalomania.

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 18 February 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 February 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

So, at what point does everyone say that this guy has mental health issues that he probably needs help for?

http://pagesix.com/2...d-snl-meltdown/

I mean, stuff like the above audio is literally the hallmark of someone with such problems.

Many think his recent Twitter meltdown was a publicity stunt but this..... reminds me of megalomania.

Quite possibly that.

[worry]

I don't particularly wanna listen to that audio, but feeding his own ego to hype himself up has always been part of his process -- and an acknowledged one even in his lyrics, right from the start. And despite all the armchair psychology (I don't mean your post, I mean in general) there's not exactly a binary between "having issues" and "not having issues" -- he's a human being, so he has some. Who knows if they're severe or not? Page Six doesn't, that's for sure. Either way, getting the nerves before a live performance on SNL isn't a sign of anything in particular.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 18 February 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

So, at what point does everyone say that this guy has mental health issues that he probably needs help for?

http://pagesix.com/2...d-snl-meltdown/

I mean, stuff like the above audio is literally the hallmark of someone with such problems.

Molly Lambert wrote about SSRIs and herself, in relation to a couple things she thinks she's picked up on from Kanye: http://www.mtv.com/n...hosts-of-ssris/

[QuickTidal]

Tangential (because I'm unsure what thread this might belong in).

I love M.I.A. and have loved her music since the first album. She recently was interviewed by a local paper here and this bit really resonated with me.

Last year, M.I.A. stirred a Twitter debate when she announced that a video she had planned, with footage shot in Africa featuring a native dancer delivering a jaw-dropping routine, wasn’t going to be released due to more possible accusations of cultural appropriation.

She put it out anyway, in Broader Than A Border, but the cultural appropriation argument still frustrates her. If M.I.A., a person of colour, can’t use her pop culture clout to speak to issues that involve people of other colours or provide a platform for their talents, then who will?

“Due to all these social justice warriors, I’ve been reduced to a POC,” says M.I.A., actually pronouncing it “pock” as opposed to spelling out the acronym for people of colour. “A POC is the only person who can speak for a POC. But a POC cannot talk about or appropriate any other cultures. We cannot be connected through a common human experience any longer.”

M.I.A. totally understands now why global successes like Beyoncé and Taylor Swift can’t engage with other cultures or speak to foreign concerns in their music. If the cultural appropriation police came after her, just imagine how they’d sharpen their knives for the girl who sings Shake It Off.

“If we really need an Arab person to come forward in pop culture and popular music in order to talk about Arab issues, because that is the way that everyone sees fit, then we’re going to be waiting for a long fucking time.”

And to keep things on topic, here's one of her most recent songs (from the forthcoming album MATAHDATAH) which touches directly on the refugee crisis around the globe. She is such an amazing talent.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 May 2016 - 05:42 PM

[amphibian]

Mathangi Arulpragasam has not shown herself to be a good evaluator of anything outside the Sri Lankan violence of the 80s and mid 90s.

It's really difficult to say this, but she's kind of a speaker with credibility on that single issue without having a ton of empathy or context plus understanding of others situations.

[worry]

I've been thinking about that too. She's got the zealous college freshman's penchant for offering her opinion on any topic regardless of her familiarity level or whether anyone asked her to, and clumsily trying to relate it back to her own issue. I'm sure you heard about the most recent thing re: BLM. But then Iggy Azalea (whose music I don't like) or Azealia Banks (whose music I do like) says something waaaay dumber and I'm like "M.I.A., you're not so bad after all."

[Studlock]

While I think artists, in general, can provided insightful contributions to our understanding of the world, I believe they only ever do this within a standpoint framework. Just because M.I.A. can provide insight into her specific standpoint does not, necessarily, mean she should, or even can do so for other problems. I think this can apply to pretty much all artists (or even people), and unless they show themselves to be multifaceted intellects we should take their opinions on complex matters with a bit of a grain of salt (looking at you Taylor Swift). On a sidenote, I did not get to do my study but I did read a lot of Bourdieu which has made me even more critical of the type of criticism thrown at hip-hop but alas I can't demonstrate the intellectual biases involved.

[polishgenius]

worry, on 13 May 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

But then Iggy Azalea (whose music I don't like) or Azealia Banks (whose music I do like) says something waaaay dumber and I'm like "M.I.A., you're not so bad after all."

I wish Azealia Banks wasn't such a fucking nutjob, because I really do like her stuff and how she's willing to just plough completely her own furrow musically. But it's really hard to want to support her when she gets as hateful as she does.

Even stupider coz she often starts out with some kind of valid point that she buries between waves of racism and homophobia.

[amphibian]

MIA's biggest problem is how she's so locked into the Sri Lanka of the 80s and 90s that she cannot really understand how things are different elsewhere - or even in Sri Lanka of today.

Part of this is how she went from British lower middle class to art school hustler to Brooklyn hipster musician to billionaire's wife to what she is now. There's not time where she spent a bunch of time reading, even though she traveled all over the world, hanging out with a diverse group of people.

It's not necessary to read a bunch of books on each issue one encounters, but it sure helps with building a coherent theory and awareness of when to step back and when that famous MIA boldness is welcome. So when she criticizes Beyonce or has that video about slaughtering red heads, it comes off as tone deaf and worse than not saying anything.

I hope she pulls out of it tho. Her music is pretty awesome.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 13 May 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

MIA's biggest problem is how she's so locked into the Sri Lanka of the 80s and 90s that she cannot really understand how things are different elsewhere - or even in Sri Lanka of today.

Part of this is how she went from British lower middle class to art school hustler to Brooklyn hipster musician to billionaire's wife to what she is now. There's not time where she spent a bunch of time reading, even though she traveled all over the world, hanging out with a diverse group of people.

It's not necessary to read a bunch of books on each issue one encounters, but it sure helps with building a coherent theory and awareness of when to step back and when that famous MIA boldness is welcome. So when she criticizes Beyonce or has that video about slaughtering red heads, it comes off as tone deaf and worse than not saying anything.

I hope she pulls out of it tho. Her music is pretty awesome.

Aren't you doing what she said in the piece I quoted. Telling a girl who is from Sri Lanka (She lived her first ten years in Sri Lanka and India before coming back to Britain [which she left as a 6month old]) what she can and can't talk about filtered through your own opinion? I'm not sure that's right.

Minority opinion here but: She's right to criticize Beyonce. Beyonce is capitalism incarnate, just tied to some musical talent. And the Born Free video was a response to CURRENT (at the time, 2010) Sri-Lankan killing fields stuff filmed on mobile phones, not "80's and 90's stuff" as you mention.

I'm not implying political activism through music is the only way...but I don't think we know M.I.A.'s life well enough to posit that she's full of it, or is only focused on one thing from a different era. The video I posted is about the refugee crisis and is quite poignant as a result. I don't think there is anything wrong with that or how she's chosen to draw attention to it.

What I got from that article is that she's saying that we need to feel comfortable in having the discussion. I don't care what the discussion is....but we need to be allowed to have it without feeling like we will be raked over the coals for even attempting it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 May 2016 - 04:37 PM

[amphibian]

What MIA did with Beyonce was pull an "All Lives Matter" line of thought. It's lazy, it's dismissive, and saying Beyonce is "capitalism incarnate" is kinda dumb. Knowles has made it a point to produce and write large chunks of her music in collaboration with some of the best in the game, while owning her own masters and going full in on Tidal/her own site/Lemonade (which means going in on distribution as well). That's huge risk taking and something markedly different from business as usual with the likes of Mottola and other label sharks. Yes, Beyonce wants your money, but the methods and risks she has used and taken are markedly different from those the usual record label sharks. It's something artists like Little Richard, Prince, Michael Jackson, the Beatles, and many more have built up and she's taken it even farther with her husband and a few other (mostly black) artists. It's a big deal and industry-changing if it works over the long term.

The redhead slaughter was tone deaf because despite the attachment to the reality of the massacres of the Sri Lankan civil war, it didn't have depth to it either artistically or in terms of MIA's overall platform/lines of thought. MIA was a billionaire at the time this happened and absorbed in her creative endeavors/fashion stuff. She's continually brought attention to the issues the Tamils and Sri Lankans face, but honestly, most of her productive work has been with Liberian school children and communities. She doesn't talk much about that though.

So the ways and words that MIA uses to talk about these issue are shallow and take shots at American blacks, as well as others, in a manner that isn't ok. That's what I'm saying - not that she can't talk, but that she's not good at talking about these issues and probably should step back and let others talk or go learn more.

[QuickTidal]

Disagree on all counts. Sorry.