Malazan Empire: Sanderson Read through Mistborn to Stormlight Archive. - Malazan Empire

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Sanderson Read through Mistborn to Stormlight Archive. SPOILERS EVERYWHERE FOR ALL SANDERSON BOOKS

#61 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 07:00 AM

Sanderson ought to be honoured. Today he joined an elite group of authors (SE and Terry Pratchett) for whose books I have neglected my actual 'serious' stuff.

This means I have finished Part 4, 75 chapters.

Kaladin really needs to sort himself out. He has done something to Syl and his decisions and actions in the near future will be pretty crucial. I just hope he doesn't go into another "I have failed and will now perish miserably" funk.

Shallan's character arc matures a lot here. I got goosebumps reading the last part of her flashback and when she finally unwinds towards Kaladin. Sanderson has surpassed himself when it comes to female characters. It also gave Kaladin some much needed perspective. Seriously he could do with a spanking ever now and then.

Seriously though Shallan is badass. She really doesn't seem to know fear. In fact she is too good for Adolin, who while being pretty decent is a bit of an idiot.

Which brings us to the almost-there tension between Kaladin and Shallan. I don't want those two to get it on. I like the Adolin Shallan dynamic. And frankly Kaladin isn't good enough for her either.

I get why Kaladin thinks that Elhokar should die. He is useless. But the Ghostbllods interest me. Are Mraize and Rayes of the chapter epigraphs connected?

Also Amaram seems to have hidden plans. He seems to be playing a double game with Sadeas as well

Now that Szeth knows he has been lied to, does that invalidate his vows? Why doesn't he kill his former employer now?

The Parshendi are becoming a very serious threat. This last part is going to be pretty bloody. I wonder how many named characters will die. If the Bridge lot start dying this might trigger something in Kaladin again. I hope Adolin doesn't die. There will also be at least one betrayal. About that I am pretty sure.
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#62 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 05:28 PM

Done and finished.

The last part of this book is awesome. Simply awesome.

Kaladin finally matures. Finally. Took him long enough. And he turns into Jedi-Superman. Ok....

This was Shallan's book. No Argument. Kaladin can Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon all he wants up in the clouds but it would have meant nothing unless she had found the Oathgate and transported everybody out of harms way.

Jasnah is alive. I had a suspicion. This again vindicates my policy of never accepting a fantasy deat hunless you see the body, and are reasonably sure nobody cloned it, took the soul out, substituted a dummy etc. I loved the scene of her return though. She had so many worries and apparently all of it had been dealt with, mainly thanks to Shallan.

Dalinar gives the stormfather a dressing down. Only he could have done that.

Adolin's murder of Sadeas is going to have lots of unpleasant consequences.

And Szeth not only survives, he gets the psychosword from Warbreaker? Cosmere coming on really heavy now.

For once I was prepared for betrayals and nothing happened. Not fair.

The Heraldic Honorblades - whats wrong with them?

All for now. More tomorrow
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#63 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 05:51 PM

Oh yes. Now I can actually get into Cosmere hunting. I can also post and browse on Shard safely. Also found that both the Cosmere Novellas are available. So will try those later
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#64 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 05:57 PM

Now you've finished, I can tell you that Sanderson's laid out the series so that books 1 to 5 have a different main POV (Kaladin in 1, Shallan in 2, Szeth in 3, Eshonai in 4 (she totally didn't die from that fall, seriously (nested brackets wooo)) and Dalinar in 5) then a time skip, then the same for 6 to 10, and Lift will be a main character and main POV for one of those latter five.

Also I haven't bothered looking up the WoR change but is he adding some ambiguity to Szeth's seeming death scene?
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#65 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 06:03 PM

View PostIlluyankas, on 19 March 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Now you've finished, I can tell you that Sanderson's laid out the series so that books 1 to 5 have a different main POV (Kaladin in 1, Shallan in 2, Szeth in 3, Eshonai in 4 (she totally didn't die from that fall, seriously (nested brackets wooo)) and Dalinar in 5) then a time skip, then the same for 6 to 10, and Lift will be a main character and main POV for one of those latter five.

Also I haven't bothered looking up the WoR change but is he adding some ambiguity to Szeth's seeming death scene?


I understood that Eshonai didn't die. If this is indeed the layout, the series ought to progress quite nicely. An extended Szeth PoV would be awesome. Also whats the point of adding ambiguity? we know he didn't die
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Posted 19 March 2015 - 07:17 PM

Yeah, check out the swordmaster more. Particularly metaphor-wise.

Also I mostly prefer that, because Szeth being turbokilled and then revived anyway was a bullshit asspull that everyone hated, so having it less obvious to new readers can only help. Kaladin would totally Kalakill a fucker though
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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Posted 19 March 2015 - 08:46 PM

What did you think of Taravangain's chapter? I don't see it get mentioned as often as some other parts, but it was one of my favorite chapters in the book. Tons of revelations and major plot progressions. And his affliction was just so damn interesting.
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#68 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 02:45 AM

View PostBriar King, on 19 March 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

I won't bother with spoilers now so BS changed the scene from Kaladin killing Szeth to Kaladin hesitating and bringing his shard blade down on Szeths hand and then having the Highstorm kill him.(lame) he said cause he wasn't happy that Kaladin did that and it was not in his nature. Pffff

Also Ando there more Warbreakr nuggets in bk 2 then the sword.



View PostIlluyankas, on 19 March 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Yeah, check out the swordmaster more. Particularly metaphor-wise.

Also I mostly prefer that, because Szeth being turbokilled and then revived anyway was a bullshit asspull that everyone hated, so having it less obvious to new readers can only help. Kaladin would totally Kalakill a fucker though


Sanderson's justification is silly. Of Course Kaladin would have killed him. But, the end of the fight as it stands now makes his revival almost impossible to credit. Chopping of hand, letting the storm finish him.... hey wait a second! Thats exactly what Obi-Wan did to Anakin at the end of Part 3... chop off limbs, let the lava burns finish him....anybody else think that what with the shardblades cutting features and this, there's a bit of star wars inspiration going on?

Swordmaster.....Zahel... I knew those quirks of speech were strange
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#69 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 02:48 AM

View PostEnd of Disc One, on 19 March 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

What did you think of Taravangain's chapter? I don't see it get mentioned as often as some other parts, but it was one of my favorite chapters in the book. Tons of revelations and major plot progressions. And his affliction was just so damn interesting.


Actually this chapter raised the most questions. I was going to addres it separately. Firstly his varying intelligence... clearly a gift from the Night... thingy forgetting its name but it also made Dalinar forget his wife.

Secondly he names 2 Spren who are supposed to be really powerful and evil

I get he is trying to unify the world to face the crisis, though what he intends to do after that, I am not so sure of.
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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:03 AM

Now that I have red this far, I am trying to construct a rough picture of the world.

Lets see, there seem to be 3 shards...Odium, Cultivation and Honour?(not sure about the last one)

Odium killed one, the other one is dormant.

The Voidbringers are subject to Odium.

The Stormfather is a descendant/minion of the dead Shard.

There were ten Heralds who apparently fought for humanity againsts the Voidbringers, but also suffered during Desolations. ( iam not sure how) They then left, all except one, that last one being the brain-damaged chap who shows up at the end of Book 1.

They left their swords, only there is something wrong with them. These are called Honorblades.

Spren, who seem to be indigenous to the world, copied/adapted Heraldic powers and bonded to people thus creating the Knights Radiant.

At some point after the Heralds left, the Knights abandoned their oaths and left. This meant the death of their bonded Spren. Their armour and blades were left to normal humans to bond, use, fight over.

Strangely enough Voidbringers also stopped coming and in fact disappeared. The Parshendi who were transformed by Spren into Voidbringers entered a phase of declining culture where much of their knowledge was lost.

The relics of the past like the Oath gates and the cities were forgotten or built over. Humanity adapted to a world of storms, the exception being Shinovar which was sheltered.


At the time of the books for some reason the Radiants are returning. This might actually be a response to the return of the Voidbringers which became likely as soon as the Parshendi-ALethkar war started. Of course the reasons for the start of that war are still confusing.


So what did I miss?
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#71 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:16 AM

Also, from what I have seen so far, neither Kaladin nor Shallan are full Radiants as neither of them have said all the vows. The Vows appear to come from life experience.

I will say this though... I find Shallan's powers to be more versatile than Kaladin. She has an eidetic memory, can actually bring pictures to reality, create illusions and she has a Shardblade. Plus she is like 10-15 times smarter and funnier than Kaladin.

I will say this for Sanderson, he does a better job than most at writing female characters. And his writing them has matured a lot since Elantris
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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:30 AM

OK, I got the entire Word of Radiance edit from Shard.

Its in a topic called "Brandon tweaking Words of Radiance" in the Stormlight Archive subforum.

I must say the edits read a lot weaker than the original.

And no, I haven't unearthed any Cosmere nuggets yet. It may take a bit of time

This post has been edited by Andorion: 20 March 2015 - 03:32 AM

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:49 AM

I had a discussion with several others about Way of Kings in another thread.

My main point was that I felt Sanderson's Mormonism got in the way of writing his characters to their truest extent.

Did you get that feeling at all?
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#74 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 03:53 AM

Since I don't know much about Mormonism, I can't really say. Knowing a few key features would help. The only thing I do know is the polygamy thing, and I haven't really seen that.

What I did notice, is that because of the whole Shard thing Divinity is more readily accessible and overt than in most fantasy books
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#75 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 04:37 AM

Is this important? I mean there isn't an over obsession with religion, nor do the characters seem too concerned with it In fact Shallan and Adolin don't really give much thought to theolgy or faith
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Posted 20 March 2015 - 02:06 PM

The "chosen by divine means person becoming more and more divine in the image of God by going through baptisms and so on with a very accessible divinity" thing is straight from Mormon beliefs, as well as chastity before marriage, not consuming caffeine or alcohol and many other things. One of those includes a lack of LGBT support/tolerance and very few minorities.

I am of the opinion that Dalinar in particular is hampered by being constrained to Mormon belief. I do not remember the specifics of my argument in elsethread, so I will try to dig it up.

There's an overlap between this and the very popular Golden/Silver Age gestalt in comic books, so I do understand Sanderson's popularity - but I am suspicious of it. The Golden Age period was full of exclusionist work and I feel that the darkness and the complexity of the Bronze and Modern Age gestalts are better for the stories and characters.

I do understand a certain resistance to making everything grim and dark and a desire for "clean, wholesome entertainment". But I think Sanderson has times where his writing takes him into direct conflict with his beliefs and I'm not sure which side wins.

His short story in the Dangerous Women anthology, Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, is the best thing he has ever written - and it is his darkest.
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Posted 20 March 2015 - 04:13 PM

The talk starts on this page: http://forum.malazan...on/page__st__80

Several people get involved with a variety of different opinions (as in it's not just me talking). Some very well thought out responses presented in there from Tapper, Morgoth, QuickTidal and others presenting their viewpoints.
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#78 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 05:48 PM

Ok. great link. Read over the posts.

The Mormonism did not really make it into the discussion, but the two major points seem to be lack of sexual tension/romantic accuracy and too predictable character development/insufficiently grimdark.

Lets get point 2 first.

Ever since I finished Elantris, my main reaction was that the lack of grimdark was refreshing. Because nowadays every other fantasy author is writing grimdark. Its everywhere. I actually liked the lighter tone of the books. Not every book has to be grim-realistic to be good. Again grim-realism isn't everybody's thing. Take Abercrombie for instance. I did not like his books, mainly because his entire thing seemed to be "Hey look, here are some fantasy trops and I am going to twist them" It was ham-fisted, it was blunt and it was predictable. After coming off so many grim reads, Sanderson was the very opposite of predictable for me ( I kept on expecting everybody would die)

Sanderson is good at world-building, magic systems and action scenes. These are shown off to glorious effect in this book. There's no point in saying he isn't grim enough. I made this point earlier in the Dresden thread, read an author for what he is, not who you wish him to be.

As for characterisation, the development arcs were predictable to some people. I was pretty comfortable predicting Kaladin and to some extent Shallan, but I honestly thought Dalinar was going to die at least 3 times in the books. For me Sanderson was refreshingly unpredictable. I imagined a far more bloody conclusion to Words of Radiance.

Now, point 1, chiefly sexual tension/romantic scenes.

I agree with a lot of QT and Sombra's points but Tapper makes some very good arguments.

I think QT undermined himself with the Victorian England analogy there.

Instead of repeating all the stuff already said, I was thinking why nobody considered the context of the argument: Its a Fantasy novel. That means Sanderson gets to invent everything Geography, culture, history, dress everything. So if he wrote a culture where sexuality was repressed, its not really strange. Thats just the world he is playing in. Also Dalinar's repression is perfectly consistent with his character. In fact he tels Navani, he wants the relationship, but he wants tit ot proceed on his terms. It may seema bit strange, but everything he does is a bit strange. Thats his character.

I acknowledge that Sanderson is light on sex. But it rarely hinders his storytelling. If an author can write well without sex, thats just fine with me

With me, it all comes down in the end to your own mindset. ONce I get the feel o fan author, I simply try to adjust my mind to his PoV and read from there. The reading goes way easier and I enjoy it more. To me, reading is at a very fundamental level about enjoyment. If I am not having fun, I won't read that book.

Also, people missed a major point when they talked about how cliched it was for people from different regions to have different habits.

Firstly its not really that prevalent, since most of the focus is on the Alethi. I mean Shinovar is an isolated country surrounded by mountains. Of course they are going to be distinctive. But the real point is that in Sanderson differences are often not cultural constructiosn. They are real on a biological level. In Mistborn, I thought the Skaa/nobility division was being overstated till I dscovered, they really were different. The Lord Ruler changed them on a genetic level. In SA, Rock the Horneater is clearly very different form the others. He eats shells and hard carapace raw. Is it so hard to understand the Horneaters are different on a biological level?
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Posted 20 March 2015 - 06:56 PM

The sandbox Sanderson sets up for himself to play is indeed within his own choices - but it is my belief that his strong adherence to Mormonism makes him pick writerly sandboxes that are only within that larger sandbox.

As for the Golden/Silver Age dynamics vs Bronze/Modern/Grimdark dynamics - I prefer the latter. It has become a fad to make EVERYTHING grimdark and without much in the way of quality control, so I fully understand how people dislike the flood of it. However, I think depicting more characters as less than ideal and with greater diversity is something that all authors should emphasize - it not only includes more people, it expands the potential sandbox for the story.
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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:54 AM

Oh I agree about the need for diversity and realism. But I always felt that these goals should be achieved without it feeling forced. SE is kind of ideal in this regard. His inversion of the normal fantasy order feels so natural that you don't really think the author is making an ideological point, you just feel that this is the way it should be. Another good example is NK Jemisin.

There are some authors who wrote their greatest stuff when out of their comfort zone, while othere are really good whne cruising in their groove. Sandrson seems to be comfortable where he is and his books are by no means bad reads. But keep in mind that both his major series SA and Mistborn have a long way to go, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more changes along the way.
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