[the broken]

WOT characters usually are how they are for a reason.

Spoiler

Nynaeve is 26 but looks 16, she had to constantly assert her authority in Emonds field in order to be taken seriously.

Elayne throws herself headfirst into danger a lot because she grew up around guards keeping her away from danger and hearing stories of Andoran queens leading troops into battle.

Faile has irrational impulses, which she tries to keep clamped down, but Perrin picks up on every idle impulse she has (even the ones that aren't visible to everyone without supersenses) and reacts to it, and it snowballs from there.

Gawyn grew up being told it was his duty to protect Elayne, who doesn't listen to him and seeks out danger.

He's no Hobb, but the annoying character traits are usually supposed to be there for a reason.

[Macros]

I dunno, I think he just really sucked at writing some characters

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 Macros, on 08 December 2023 - 09:10 AM, said:

I dunno, I think he just really sucked at writing

FTFY

In all seriousness though some of his poetry is okay(-ish...). And maybe a little bit of 's world-building.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 08 December 2023 - 03:12 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I like his worldbuilding but yeah his character work is pretty naff.

[amphibian]

 the broken, on 07 December 2023 - 10:56 PM, said:

WOT characters usually are how they are for a reason.

Spoiler

Nynaeve is 26 but looks 16, she had to constantly assert her authority in Emonds field in order to be taken seriously.

Elayne throws herself headfirst into danger a lot because she grew up around guards keeping her away from danger and hearing stories of Andoran queens leading troops into battle.

Faile has irrational impulses, which she tries to keep clamped down, but Perrin picks up on every idle impulse she has (even the ones that aren't visible to everyone without supersenses) and reacts to it, and it snowballs from there.

Gawyn grew up being told it was his duty to protect Elayne, who doesn't listen to him and seeks out danger.

He's no Hobb, but the annoying character traits are usually supposed to be there for a reason.

The execution of the writing was genuinely terrible for stretches. There's much joking about how so many of the women characters tug braids or fold arms under boobs or do whatever, while the men have significantly more character differentiation as written.

That's an RJ + editorial team failure and it's pretty easy to improve upon that, which has happened in the show and in Sanderson's writing.

[Cause]

 the broken, on 07 December 2023 - 10:56 PM, said:

WOT characters usually are how they are for a reason.

Spoiler

Nynaeve is 26 but looks 16, she had to constantly assert her authority in Emonds field in order to be taken seriously.

Elayne throws herself headfirst into danger a lot because she grew up around guards keeping her away from danger and hearing stories of Andoran queens leading troops into battle.

Faile has irrational impulses, which she tries to keep clamped down, but Perrin picks up on every idle impulse she has (even the ones that aren't visible to everyone without supersenses) and reacts to it, and it snowballs from there.

Gawyn grew up being told it was his duty to protect Elayne, who doesn't listen to him and seeks out danger.

He's no Hobb, but the annoying character traits are usually supposed to be there for a reason.

There is no excuse, no explanataion to justify Faile! Her and therefore Perrins entire plotline in the later third of the series becomes unbearable.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

 amphibian, on 08 December 2023 - 05:51 PM, said:

There's much joking about how so many of the women characters tug braids or fold arms under boobs or do whatever

I agree with Amph's whole post, but this bit.... listening to it in earbook form really brings home how often he describes "X folded her arms beneath her breasts" and how often it's put there in such a way as if to suggest it's something they're doing deliberately to distract/annoy/catch the eye of the men in the room.

.... where else do you think women fold their arms, Robert Jordan?

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 09 December 2023 - 11:48 AM

[Macros]

Plus the progressively tightening pants, rapey granny, pillow friends, boob slapping, naked desert runs, spanking, etc. The man was a fetishist of the highest order.
Whk was beaten up by his mean sister when young

[worry]

This is why Erikson and ICE invented the Forkrul Assail. They can fold their arms anywhere, defying old school fantasy conventions.

[Tiste Simeon]

 worry, on 09 December 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

This is why Erikson and ICE invented the Forkrul Assail. They can fold their arms anywhere, defying old school fantasy conventions.

It is well known that Forkrul Assail have boobs in multiple places so they just added to the heightened breast and arm folding facets of the genre.

[Abyss]

 Tiste Simeon, on 09 December 2023 - 01:02 PM, said:

 worry, on 09 December 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

This is why Erikson and ICE invented the Forkrul Assail. They can fold their arms anywhere, defying old school fantasy conventions.

It is well known that Forkrul Assail have boobs in multiple places so they just added to the heightened breast and arm folding facets of the genre.

Yes but their breasts can break a man's neck from three meters way. Behind them.
Thus subverting the trope.

[the broken]

Don't forget the magic rituals that require everyone to take off all their clothes.

I don't know how much credit to give for not writing like the 90s when it is no longer the 90s.

This post has been edited by the broken: 09 December 2023 - 08:04 PM

[Abyss]

Finally started this, marathoned S1 eps 1-3.

Not bad at all. I'm no purist, entertain me for 60 minutes and I'll be back for more. This show managed that. The cast are fine, the sets and costumes work, the fx are ok, the action scenes, well, I've seen better but I've seen worse.
Also, Nyneave stalking a trolloc, stealing its knife and stabbing it down into murky water, then bursting up and just fucking TOSSING THAT BRAID.... Glorious.

Perrin's accident was an interesting element to add to the character. Lan is near perfect.

I'm in.

[Macros]

We finished season 2 last weekend.

I'm happy enough, a few changes make sense, a few don't (imo) but no Faile so far is a win

[Abyss]

 Abyss, on 06 January 2024 - 05:00 AM, said:

Finally started this, marathoned S1 eps 1-3.

Not bad at all. I'm no purist, entertain me for 60 minutes and I'll be back for more. This show managed that. The cast are fine, the sets and costumes work, the fx are ok, the action scenes, well, I've seen better but I've seen worse.
Also, Nyneave stalking a trolloc, stealing its knife and stabbing it down into murky water, then bursting up and just fucking TOSSING THAT BRAID.... Glorious.

Perrin's accident was an interesting element to add to the character. Lan is near perfect.

I'm in.

Ep 4... a LOT happening here, Eg n Perrin w the Tinkers, Mat n Rand w Thom, Nyn Lan n Moiraine w the Reds and Greens and Logain. All in all a pretty great ep actually. I nearly lost it when the little girl showed Mat her Brigitte doll, I enjoyed the way we meet the Warders, the confrontation w Logain's army was well done even if I can retroactively feel the fan'atics losing their minds while Alanna blows up an entire army, and damn, Nyneave gets a second moment of awesome.

[Abyss]

ep5 - well, spending THAT much time effort and budget around the death of a fairly minor character was certainly a choice.
Otherwise solid ep, i;'m enjoying the White Tower politicking. Eg and Perrin among the Children was well handled too.
Loial is perfect.

ep6 - ah, there's the infighting Aes Sedai we know and love. Interesting choice to fold Elaida and Liandrin into one character, leaves the reader/viewers guessing whether she's a darkfriend or just a horrible person.
Off to the Eye we go!

[HoosierDaddy]

I finished season 2 the other day. The show definitely has its positives. I enjoy that it is attempting to be more proactively adult... it is just so very hit and miss with moments that it tries to include/combine.

IMHO, The Forsaken are by far the best part of the show. By far.

I'll continue watching it, but I'm not anxiously awaiting it.

[Abyss]

 Abyss, on 09 January 2024 - 09:02 PM, said:

ep5 - well, spending THAT much time effort and budget around the death of a fairly minor character was certainly a choice.
Otherwise solid ep, i;'m enjoying the White Tower politicking. Eg and Perrin among the Children was well handled too.
Loial is perfect.

ep6 - ah, there's the infighting Aes Sedai we know and love. Interesting choice to fold Elaida and Liandrin into one character, leaves the reader/viewers guessing whether she's a darkfriend or just a horrible person.
Off to the Eye we go!

Satisfying end w eps 7-8. I appluad the decision to intro Rand's Aeil mom in a flashback where she wipes out half an army while mid-labour. That could have been done badly so many ways and they found a way to make it work.

The attack on Sheinar was just ok... the big wall with all the gaping holes in it made no tactical sense, the semi-trained not terribly powerful Lady taping Nyn and Eg to wipe out the Trolloc army only marginally better (and also, Ingtar, Loial, Uno and all their friends appearing to be stabbed thoroughly dead only to show up fine in S2 ep 1 was a bit silly). Rand and Moiraine's confrontation w Ishamael/the DO was... ok. It worked, and I'm not at all fixated on anything being done the way the books did it, but unlike most things in the show this genuinely felt like someone said 'yeah, we can't do THAT, what else have we got to work with?'. Stilling Moiraine otoh, great choice. Throws the character into unknown territoryand yanks the reader/viewer along for the ride.

On to S2, eps 1-2, Perrin's joining the Horn Hunters and bouncing off Elyas' wolf-brother'ness is a bit blunt but it works. His plotline is just very predictable so far. I did enjoy their confrontation w the Seanchan, and sticking Ishamael on the platform next to the mask lady was a nice touch.

Nyneave continues to be one of my faves. I loved that she's training w Alanna's wardens and how they accept/encourage her. I like that her block is still a plot point. Her interplay w Liandrin and the Red is a nice addition to the character's story which in the books often boiled down to 'join White, steal Lan from Moiraine'.

Egwene hasn't done much, but Elayne is absolutely PERFECT and their friendship was a nice addition to the story and well handled. Seriously, there are so many ways they could have screwed up the choice of actress or Elayne character intro and they just nailed it, i thought. The bit where she refuses to give up some servant, Sheriam (also perfect casting) tells her to show up for three months of switching, and "before of after breakfast Sheriam Sedia?".... NICE.

Mat... i like the new actor, and he bounces well off Liandrin and then Min. I applaud how well he sells 'defeated depressed in a cell' on intro, then in ep 2 rolls out of bed and resumes an escape attempt already in progress.

Rand... k Selene is totally lanfear or another Foresaken and someone in the writing room is an X-Men fan. I like his new status, finding blademaster and channeler teachers in an insane asylum... clever that.

Moiraine and Lan... their plotline is a bit blunt in spots, her trying to drive him away, but also that she's acting out of loyalty to the Dragon, and dealing w the stilling, Rosamund Pike is selling it well. I still appreciate the additional development they're giving Lan. Verin and Adeleas and Tomas are a treat. Moiraine, stilled, w only a knife, taking out a Fade was brilliant and really drove the point (pun intended) that the character is far from helpless. Lan's fight w the three fades was genuinely brutal and here again i give them credit for letting him 'lose'.

So far, still good, and it's holding the LadyByss' interest which is often a challenge w fantasy shows.

[Cause]

 Abyss, on 09 January 2024 - 09:02 PM, said:

ep6 - ah, there's the infighting Aes Sedai we know and love. Interesting choice to fold Elaida and Liandrin into one character, leaves the reader/viewers guessing whether she's a darkfriend or just a horrible person.
Off to the Eye we go!

I thought this too at first but they announced an actress for Elaida so she is still a separate character. Shohreh Aghdashloo I think, unless that was just some unfounded rumor or hype.

 Abyss, on 09 January 2024 - 09:02 PM, said:

Nyneave continues to be one of my faves. I loved that she's training w Alanna's wardens and how they accept/encourage her. I like that her block is still a plot point. Her interplay w Liandrin and the Red is a nice addition to the character's story which in the books often boiled down to 'join White, steal Lan from Moiraine'.

I really disliked this. This to me was a normal fantasy trope in most books and movies of the female character learning something male like sword fighting. Except this is Wheel of Time, where women are not below men but are either equal (in different ways) or ranked slighlty higher. Its a core theme of the narrative. Here especially we have a women who has magical powers learning how to wield a sword. Not necessarily against Nynaeves character but I felt it moved against the theme of the book. There is a scene in the book and the TV show (forget if its before or after) about this.

[Abyss]

 Cause, on 15 January 2024 - 04:22 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 09 January 2024 - 09:02 PM, said:

ep6 - ah, there's the infighting Aes Sedai we know and love. Interesting choice to fold Elaida and Liandrin into one character, leaves the reader/viewers guessing whether she's a darkfriend or just a horrible person.
Off to the Eye we go!

I thought this too at first but they announced an actress for Elaida so she is still a separate character. Shohreh Aghdashloo I think, unless that was just some unfounded rumor or hype.

i would lose my brain to see Shohreh in this series as Elaida or ANY Aes Sedai, Wise One, Queen, Foresaken, i don't care she is GLORIOUS to watch in anything.

Quote

 Abyss, on 09 January 2024 - 09:02 PM, said:

Nyneave continues to be one of my faves. I loved that she's training w Alanna's wardens and how they accept/encourage her. I like that her block is still a plot point. Her interplay w Liandrin and the Red is a nice addition to the character's story which in the books often boiled down to 'join White, steal Lan from Moiraine'.

I really disliked this. This to me was a normal fantasy trope in most books and movies of the female character learning something male like sword fighting. Except this is Wheel of Time, where women are not below men but are either equal (in different ways) or ranked slighlty higher. Its a core theme of the narrative. Here especially we have a women who has magical powers learning how to wield a sword. Not necessarily against Nynaeves character but I felt it moved against the theme of the book. There is a scene in the book and the TV show (forget if its before or after) about this.

I ack the trope and Liandrin even makes the point (forcefully) that Nyn is wasting her time learning blades, but w this character specifically, the idea that she's frustrated w so many things (channeling, Lan, etc) and turns to the warders to do something useful w her time is consistent w the character and better than the running around tugging her braid hating everyone book version we had at this stage, more or less, before the Amyrlyn set her to looking for Darkfriends. This Nyneave isn't afraid to fuck. And also stab. And I won't be surprised if somewhere down the road we get a combination of her using the sword weave Liandrin used with her Warder training to absolutely slay the hell out of someone. Preferably Liandrin, but book Nyneave had a habit of taking on Forsaken and that would be so very epic.