[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Episode 8!

Overall I really enjoyed it. Some niggles as ever but as a finale it couldn't have been more different than the first series.

Spoiler

Firstly, the good stuff:

1. Mat. Donal Finn was an absolute joy. I loved the Heroes of the Horn scene. I get that it's a bit cheesy, the design of the Horn itself is horrid, but honestly I just really enjoyed it and loved seeing Mat come good after him having such a depressing time of it this series. Also, Uno as Gaidal Cain is fine with me, it was fun to see him back. Dovie'andi se tovya sagain!

2. Hopper... I saw a comment from Rafe Judkins saying none of Hopper's scenes are CG and that the wolf dog should be up for some awards for her work in the finale. No kidding. Loved seeing the name vision again as he died. Actually felt genuinely sad to see him go so soon. Dain Bornhald's reaction was great too - the feud between him and Perrin should be a great set up for Perrin to return to the Two Rivers and have more to do next series.

3. Ishy. Fares Fares has been a phenomenal bit of casting. I'm in two minds as to if we'll get Moridin later. If we do, fine, but if we don't I felt like that was a satisfying ending for him, he's made it very clear on multiple occasions this series that he wants to die for good. And what a great final chess move from him...

4. Egwene. The death of Renna didn't quite land for me how I wanted, but switching book brain off I loved watching her stand off with Ishy.

5. Moggy. Clearly another wonderful Forsaken casting. If Lanfear looks worried, you know everyone else needs to be pretty darn terrified!

6. Moiraine and Lan. I really haven't loved the tied off shield and pushing Lan away plot thread, but watching these two back together is a joy. I've seen a lot of complaints about her dragon banner but I liked it.

The not so good:

Essentially it's the same complaint - you don't get enough time to sit with the big moments and a lot of set up gets rushed because of the time constraints of eight episodes. I honestly think ten would be the sweet spot and solve a lot of these problems.

Tied into that is the characters who don't get enough to do. Perrin, Mat and Rand all suffered a bit from this, but Aviendha has had so little to do since her brilliant introduction. Min and Liandrin went missing in the finale too, although that felt a little justified. Hopefully they'll all get more action in the next series. We should also get more Amyrlin as I believe it's confirmed the Tower schism is coming in series 3.

May the Dragon ride again on the winds of time!

[the broken]

It's an interesting one. Reminds me of Rings of Power.

Spoiler

Their best work is with the villains, Lanfear, Ishamael, and Liandrin are well done. The problem is, levelling up the villains means that the leads can't hope to take them on. Moiraine ends up coming off as immature and weak, being needlessly cruel to Lan even though he's on suicide watch (and handling it much better than she is].

Apart from that, Egwene's plot is best because it's mostly from the book, plus a good actress. Perrin and Mat have very little to do.

Rand's story, is decent enough in itself, but the final battle fell flat, and there's a lot of general carelessness towards continuity even within show canon.

[QuickTidal]

Finally got around to finishing the season. No really big complaints, other than echoing what TRB said in that the seasons need a BIT more breathing room and 10 eps would do it....but otherwise it was solidly great.

Donal Finn is a REALLY good Mat.

We loved the last episodes stakes ramping up throughout the ep....and trying to guess at who would take out Renna in the end.

If I could change one thing, I'd have had Egwene and Rand embrace like Mat and Perrin did...just a rush and a hug...her defensive shield was NEXT level as was Ishy's gobsmacked reaction to it.

I didn't mind the Dragon banner, it served to be a pretty cool effect. The scene with Moiraine and Lan on the beach was...like a triumphant cheer-worthy moment in an episode filled with them.

I also agree that Aviendha, Bain, and Chiad didn't get much at all to do beyond being introduced and using Perrin to bounce exposition about the Aiel culture and homeland off to the audience through. That said, what we got was still awesome.

It's funny, during the episode my wife asked me which "strong woman" I liked better, Moiraine or Lanfear...and I was like "Well probably Moiraine, but Lanfear could probably smack me around in that bondage gear and I'd be okay with it?"....she LAUGHED uproariously. LOL

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

The show makes a strong case for joining the Dark... and that case is Lanfear

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 November 2023 - 06:28 AM, said:

The show makes a strong case for joining the Dark... and that case is Lanfear

Natasha O'Keefe is killing it, both seductive and villainous in equal measure...were I Rand, I'm not sure I could ever rebuff her...LOL

[Cyphon]

She actually makes it more believable than the awe inspiring beauty she is supposed to be in the book. That never really connected for me in the book in comparison to this.

[QuickTidal]

Cyphon, on 07 November 2023 - 05:46 PM, said:

She actually makes it more believable than the awe inspiring beauty she is supposed to be in the book. That never really connected for me in the book in comparison to this.

Yep, agreed.

[Cause]

Spoiler

Doesnt seem to get a lot of attention but didnt moraine break the three oaths when she destroyed the Seanchan fleet?

This post has been edited by Cause: 09 November 2023 - 07:52 PM

[Lady Bliss]

Cause, on 08 November 2023 - 02:57 AM, said:

Doesnt seem to get a lot of attention but didnt moraine break the three oaths when she destroyed the Seanchan fleet?

I had wondered about that myself. My thought was that because she had been cut off from the source the oaths stopped much like it did with Siouan and Leanne when they were stilled.

[Cause]

Lady Bliss, on 08 November 2023 - 03:18 AM, said:

Cause, on 08 November 2023 - 02:57 AM, said:

Doesnt seem to get a lot of attention but didnt moraine break the three oaths when she destroyed the Seanchan fleet?

I had wondered about that myself. My thought was that because she had been cut off from the source the oaths stopped much like it did with Siouan and Leanne when they were stilled.

Spoiler

I thought that too, her bond with Lan was broken but she was still bound by her oath to Siuan

This post has been edited by Cause: 09 November 2023 - 07:52 PM

[Cyphon]

I spotted too and thought a plotting flaw.

The only way I could think you could retcon your way around it would be to define anyone who is against the Dragon as a dark friend and therefore a legitimate target. I don't know whether the oaths are fluid enough to cover people working at the behest of a dark friend... Moraine would just need it to be true.

[flea]

It's been so long since I read any of the books, and a long time since I gave up on the series, so I'm happy that I can't measure the series against the books. I don't recall that characterization was one of Jordan's strengths. I think Lanfear is quite well done.

Spoiler

I think the series has done an excellent job with portraying the Seanchan and the particular horror of their methods. As she kills Renna I found myself wanting more violence, but I think merely strangling her shows that the Seanchan have not defeated her.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Cyphon, on 08 November 2023 - 08:25 AM, said:

I spotted too and thought a plotting flaw.

The only way I could think you could retcon your way around it would be to define anyone who is against the Dragon as a dark friend and therefore a legitimate target. I don't know whether the oaths are fluid enough to cover people working at the behest of a dark friend... Moraine would just need it to be true.

I've seen a fair few attempts to explain it, but to be honest I agree with you in that it's probably a flaw that wasn't picked up.

Daniel Greene, Matt from The Dusty Wheel and Brandon Sanderson did a live watch of the final episode (it's on Youtube, I think on The Dusty Wheel channel). Whilst I found Sanderson to come across as an absolute arse through most of it, I do think his critique that the writing seems to favour strong individual scenes over coherent arcs is fair - and I think inconsistencies like this creep in as a result.

[the broken]

I saw that. it was very strange. He was involved in the production, doing a livestream where he complains about his colleagues decisions just seems unprofessional.

If the three oaths are that fluid, then they're worthless, any given Aes Sedai could lawyer their way to 'I'm just collapsing the building, if you happen to be hit by debris, it's not my fault.'

Spoiler

The oath of obedience didn't take effect until the third command, for dramatic effect.

If being shielded could break the bond, it would happen all the time. I suppose you could make the argument that being shielded while masked made a difference, but that can't have been so rare that no one would know about it.

They're not overall being very cohesive as to what can and can't be done.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

the broken, on 09 November 2023 - 07:49 PM, said:

I saw that. it was very strange. He was involved in the production, doing a livestream where he complains about his colleagues decisions just seems unprofessional.

It's reassuring to read somebody else got the same vibe! I'm in one of the FB fan groups and there was a lot of "You just can't take criticism" sort of nonsense when anyone mentioned Sanderson's attitude in the livestream.

He addressed it a few days later and to be honest it seemed to come down to "I was under the impression I was there to talk" and "I'm worried about how it reflects on me if the magic system has poor continuity" - which is a weird, tone deaf take on how he put himself across in my view. I've never read any of his work aside from the WOT books he finished, and it honestly put me in a "I don't think I'll bother" frame of mind seeing him be so seemingly unprofessional and petulant.

[QuickTidal]

the broken, on 09 November 2023 - 07:49 PM, said:

I saw that. it was very strange. He was involved in the production, doing a livestream where he complains about his colleagues decisions just seems unprofessional.

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 10 November 2023 - 11:07 AM, said:

It's reassuring to read somebody else got the same vibe! I'm in one of the FB fan groups and there was a lot of "You just can't take criticism" sort of nonsense when anyone mentioned Sanderson's attitude in the livestream.

He addressed it a few days later and to be honest it seemed to come down to "I was under the impression I was there to talk" and "I'm worried about how it reflects on me if the magic system has poor continuity" - which is a weird, tone deaf take on how he put himself across in my view. I've never read any of his work aside from the WOT books he finished, and it honestly put me in a "I don't think I'll bother" frame of mind seeing him be so seemingly unprofessional and petulant.

I agree, and it's not just you at all, he did similar things in the livestreams he did after Season 1 and a lot of it boiled down to "they didn't do what I suggested, so I can't like that"...and the guy he talks to in those chats was way harsher on it. It very much comes across as petulant and fanboy-y.


It reminds me of when I initially ripped on Steven Moffat for some of his later DOCTOR WHO choices when he was show runner (around the second season of Matt's run)...I didn't realize how I was acting until I saw a video with him where he talks about his anxiety with regards to audiences and how they will see his work and how he tries his VERY best to do the very best stories he can come up with and how people think he intentionally tries to piss them off...and I had an epiphany where I realized that no matter what I thought of the final product, ripping on him was pointless as he set out to do his best work and if it didn't resonate with ME then that was a ME problem.

I ripped on Chibnall later on, but tried to keep it to ripping on the stories and how I didn't like them and not about the man himself.


Sando ripping on people he should consider colleagues is AT BEST bad taste, and at worst comes off as toxic fanboyism...did he rip on the sexuality in Lanfears character? I could seem his Mormonism rearing its head in that fashion.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I'd have to watch it again (not inclined to) but I think the Forsaken were one of the only things he was overall positive about.

I have my issues with Moffat's writing of women generally, as well as plenty of problems with his writing specifically for Who, and have probably said my fair share of pretty mean things about him in the past. I do the same as you now though and try to keep it to just criticising the work itself.

Toxic fanboyism seems about right - he seemed to be personally affronted any time they brought up something he had given notes on and they didn't take up his suggestion. Lots of passive aggressive "Well I tried guys..." comments and the like.

To give some credit though, in the follow up posts he did point out that as show runner, Rafe Judkins is one person in a writers room and they can all have different opinions and feelings about what's important to include in a very contracted run time. He seemed to acknowledge Rafe personally isn't at fault and pointed out a couple of things that Rafe went back to the writers room to bat for (the inclusion of the Heroes of the Horn is the one that stands out in my memory), so there seemed to be a little awareness at least that he'd managed to paint the show runner as the villain of the piece.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 10 November 2023 - 01:34 PM

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 10 November 2023 - 01:33 PM, said:

To give some credit though, in the follow up posts he did point out that as show runner, Rafe Judkins is one person in a writers room and they can all have different opinions and feelings about what's important to include in a very contracted run time. He seemed to acknowledge Rafe personally isn't at fault and pointed out a couple of things that Rafe went back to the writers room to bat for (the inclusion of the Heroes of the Horn is the one that stands out in my memory), so there seemed to be a little awareness at least that he'd managed to paint the show runner as the villain of the piece.

I think the thing that came across in the video I saw was that he fundamentally misunderstood the concept of a writers room and also the concepts of adaptation of a written work (especially one that's older with older sensibilities not necessarily worthy of direct adaptation in the 2020's)...the difference between a reader audience and a viewing TV or film audience is vaster than many authors are willing to accept. There is a deft line between what's presentable in a TV show (adaptation or not) and what's not presentable in that format. Many of Sandersons complaints simply came down to gripes about that difference and he could not understand why they chose the routes they did. Which to me, as someone who has close friends in the film/TV industry, just smacked of not doing the homework to find that line and that difference. I'll be fair and say that there immersed in this process he is MAYBE the more he figures it out as time goes on? But I would put VERY good money down on this behaviour being the very thing that's prevented any of the Cosmere works from being adapted the many times it's been suggested that they were "happening"...because he won't buckle on adaptions.

[amphibian]

To be fair, trusting the usual passel of sci Fi/fantasy Hollywood people is a very dumb move that several people have done to awful results.

Eragon, live action Avatar, dozens of straight to video efforts. I think Earthsea too.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 10 November 2023 - 03:21 PM, said:

To be fair, trusting the usual passel of sci Fi/fantasy Hollywood people is a very dumb move that several people have done to awful results.

Eragon, live action Avatar, dozens of straight to video efforts. I think Earthsea too.

Shannara made my eyes bleed.