[Terez]

I debated with myself as to whether this was a Discussions topic or an Inn topic. For me, it has the potential to be both serious and entertaining; for others, I'm not sure. I put it here because I don't go to the Inn very often. I am cool with the thread being used for anything with regard to translation.

I have been working on translation for the last two years. This is kind of funny since I only speak English, but after all this work I'm getting very close to being able to read French fluently, and I hope to achieve a similar proficiency with Polish in about 3 years, maybe German too (though I don't have to translate German quite so often). I use Google Translate, dictionaries, contextual logic, and finally, native speakers to make sure these translations are correct.

It occurred to me that there are a whole lot of people here who have to deal with more than one language on a daily basis, and that perhaps a thread here would make a good dumping-ground for various words and expressions which generally Do Not Translate. Of course, in my case I can generally only vouch for whether words translate into English, and even then I might be wrong.

My example of the moment, from French:

porte-respect: (archaic) A person, often an armed person, whose presence grants an accompanied person a measure of respect or protection.

I came across this in a context which had nothing to do with bodyguards. The porte-respect was a man named Antoni Wodziński, and the accompanied person was his lover Marie de Rozières. George Sand wrote to Rozières that, without her porte-respect (who had returned to Poland), she was becoming a bad influence on Sand's daughter Solange.

[worry]

Today I learned the word "Mudita" from Sanskrit, which means unselfish joy or joy in the happiness or well-being of others. It is effectively an antonym of schadenfreude.

[Tsundoku]

worry, on 12 December 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

Today I learned the word "Mudita" from Sanskrit, which means unselfish joy or joy in the happiness or well-being of others. It is effectively an antonym of schadenfreude.

Unfortunately there's at least one big reason you've heard of one but not the other.

[Terez]

Here's another good one in French I have come across at least twice before that I can recall:

tenir la chandelle: Literally "to hold the candle", which is very different from the English expression "to hold a candle". "Tenir la chandelle" means to be somewhat awkwardly out of place in the company of an amorous couple, or perhaps to play matchmaker, or chaperone.

[Andorion]

One very good example would be the colloquial Bengali word: "phaltu" Depending on context it can mean useless, bad, or harmful. But to truly understand the depth and nuance of meaning you have to know both bengali culture and society.

[Tru]

A Swedish friend of mine has mentioned on occasions an old norse word, "Lagom" which basically means something like not to much and not too little, in a positive sense, and it's full meaning doesn't translate properly with any other single word.

[Maark Abbott]

In a reverse, when I was in Sweden (back in summer 2008), it became apparent that the Swedes don't do the English thing where you combine a vulgarity and a noun to form an insult.

Cue the very entertaining moment one turned to a fellow Englishman and asked, with a level voice and an expression of only mild bemusement: "What is a c***monkey?"

I tried to understand a little Finnish once. As you can imagine, the Finnesht sprang up around me and now I'm stuck in this damned house.

[Andorion]

Maark, on 14 December 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

In a reverse, when I was in Sweden (back in summer 2008), it became apparent that the Swedes don't do the English thing where you combine a vulgarity and a noun to form an insult.

Cue the very entertaining moment one turned to a fellow Englishman and asked, with a level voice and an expression of only mild bemusement: "What is a c***monkey?"

I tried to understand a little Finnish once. As you can imagine, the Finnesht sprang up around me and now I'm stuck in this damned house.

Do you now have an undead cat?

[amphibian]

Much like "Colleen" means "girl" in Ireland, the name "Katie" means "girl" in Nepali.

I'll ask my family for good untranslatables. All I have are terrible ones that are too minor to be mentioned.

[Fiddler]

I used to be able to bum a cigarette in russian, french, german, chinese or arabic. Those were my days of heady adventure on the seven seas though.

[Maark Abbott]

Andorion, on 15 December 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Maark, on 14 December 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

In a reverse, when I was in Sweden (back in summer 2008), it became apparent that the Swedes don't do the English thing where you combine a vulgarity and a noun to form an insult.

Cue the very entertaining moment one turned to a fellow Englishman and asked, with a level voice and an expression of only mild bemusement: "What is a c***monkey?"

I tried to understand a little Finnish once. As you can imagine, the Finnesht sprang up around me and now I'm stuck in this damned house.

Do you now have an undead cat?

Not undead, but a big fat one. I shall call him Tubbty.

[Terez]

I just came across an awesome one in French:

entre chien et loup: literally, between dog and wolf. Figuratively, twilight. I found a good blog post about it:

http://www.nakedtran...e-chien-et-loup

Their definition:

Quote

Entre chien et loup is a multi-layered expression. It is used to describe a specific time of day, just before night, when the light is so dim you can't distinguish a dog from a wolf. However, it's not all about levels of light. It also expresses that limit between the familiar, the comfortable versus the unknown and the dangerous (or between the domestic and the wild). It is an uncertain threshold between hope and fear.

Someone in the comments suggested "gloaming", and provided some examples from Middle English poetry to demonstrate the similar meanings, but it's just not the same, is it?

I can't understand why this idiom hasn't made it into English.

Edit: some places also suggested "the witching hour", but we use that for midnight, so it doesn't work.

This post has been edited by Terez: 30 December 2014 - 04:09 AM

[EmperorMagus]

Terez, on 30 December 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

I just came across an awesome one in French:

entre chien et loup: literally, between dog and wolf. Figuratively, twilight. I found a good blog post about it:

http://www.nakedtran...e-chien-et-loup

Their definition:

Quote

Entre chien et loup is a multi-layered expression. It is used to describe a specific time of day, just before night, when the light is so dim you can't distinguish a dog from a wolf. However, it's not all about levels of light. It also expresses that limit between the familiar, the comfortable versus the unknown and the dangerous (or between the domestic and the wild). It is an uncertain threshold between hope and fear.

Someone in the comments suggested "gloaming", and provided some examples from Middle English poetry to demonstrate the similar meanings, but it's just not the same, is it?

I can't understand why this idiom hasn't made it into English.

Edit: some places also suggested "the witching hour", but we use that for midnight, so it doesn't work.

Something very similar to this exist in Farsi. "Gorgomish" is a word made out of "gorg" (wolf) and "mish" (ewe) . it means the time when those two animals look the same in the darkness.

[Maark Abbott]

I just call that time of day 'that bastard time when it's too dim for shades and too light for my eyes not to hurt without shades'.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Terez, on 13 December 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Here's another good one in French I have come across at least twice before that I can recall:

tenir la chandelle: Literally "to hold the candle", which is very different from the English expression "to hold a candle". "Tenir la chandelle" means to be somewhat awkwardly out of place in the company of an amorous couple, or perhaps to play matchmaker, or chaperone.

Well, there are english equivalent phrases though:
Third wheel for instance

Terez, on 30 December 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

I just came across an awesome one in French:

entre chien et loup: literally, between dog and wolf. Figuratively, twilight. I found a good blog post about it:

http://www.nakedtran...e-chien-et-loup

Their definition:

Quote

Entre chien et loup is a multi-layered expression. It is used to describe a specific time of day, just before night, when the light is so dim you can't distinguish a dog from a wolf. However, it's not all about levels of light. It also expresses that limit between the familiar, the comfortable versus the unknown and the dangerous (or between the domestic and the wild). It is an uncertain threshold between hope and fear.

Someone in the comments suggested "gloaming", and provided some examples from Middle English poetry to demonstrate the similar meanings, but it's just not the same, is it?

I can't understand why this idiom hasn't made it into English.

Edit: some places also suggested "the witching hour", but we use that for midnight, so it doesn't work.

Gloaming is still in use in parts of Scotland though. Certainly i've heard it used. Though the old song "Roaming in the Gloaming" no doubt helped maintain its usage.
All jokes about us being a few centuries behind the rest of the English speaking world are unwelcome.


Despite their possible accuracy.

Relatedly though, we have phrases/words like this:

Stramash - usually a fight/brawl/argument between multiple people (ie not one on one). Again, admittedly, just another word for a common thing though, so not quite on topic, but i'd welcome some of the international readers using it as its a cool word

[Terez]

Gloaming is still used in global English, especially in lit fic, but it doesn't appear to have all the same connotations that it did back in the day, connotations similar to "entre chien et loup".

[PS: I just saw the first part of your post. Third wheel is used, or fifth wheel (there are difficulties here, you see) but I wouldn't say it's exactly equivalent; there's some fantastic imagery in "holding the candle" that just doesn't translate.]

Here's one from Polish:

dusza na ramieniu: literally, soul on shoulder. Figuratively, to be afraid, apprehensive, etc. bab.la suggests "heart in mouth" which is actually more commonly expressed as "heart in throat", but I don't think it's quite the same. In translation "soul" and "heart" (in Polish: "serce") are often treated as interchangeable, so that's not exactly the problem, but "heart in throat" is an actual physical sensation. The physical imagery of "soul on shoulder" is similar to "heart on sleeve", but the meaning is different; the latter is just to be obvious about one's emotions. The imagery of "soul on shoulder" is also similar to "looking over one's shoulder", which is much closer to the actual meaning, but still more specific (i.e. you're afraid of being followed).

This post has been edited by Terez: 31 December 2014 - 12:02 AM

[worry]

There's the English phrase "eyes in the back of your head" that is somewhat similar, but also applies when you are in an authority position watching over people (like a daycare attendant), so it's almost a contronym. Same with "keeping an eye on ____". Can be either fear/wariness or authority/responsibility.

[Nicodimas]

It's glorious being a member of the Empire and I further request more translation's to native American.

http://www.oxforddic...-american-terms
http://www.fulbright...age-differences

Been watching more British TV, so I always find the translation's helpful..and find that you all are discussing *English*, but fail to address the various Dialects? I have been wondering about this for some time as Translation occurs and we all live on different side of the world how much <if the governments don't subvert the web and bend it's to its will> will language change in the next couple of decades due to the web itself and how we interpret what we type. I guess will the english as we type now rapidly change due to the various cultures that all mesh on the internet.

This is a old post that deals with this situation.
http://www.huffingto...i_b_787122.html

Translation is very interesting and I echo this article it would be interesting for word gain versus word loss to occur moving forward. I see a future if you got transported to it , would we be able to communicate and decipher how they communicate via internet ? Wild huh..

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 31 December 2014 - 07:44 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

let's drift a little for Nico and get started on Doric then.

Doric is the dialect spoken in north east Scotland, and its fair to say that when added to the accent from up there, can be damn near incomprehensible to many.

"Aright ma quin, fit like?" - hello my girl, how are you?
"Aright ma loon, fit like?" - hello my boy, how are you?

the term 'loon' isn't derogatory or relating to lunatic, it just means boy/man.

[Nicodimas]

Very cool, Coco...My mind automatically goes to Snatch <the movie> upon reading that.

http://en.wikipedia...._%28Scotland%29
(reading through is making me think I am reading James Joyce, kinda)

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 31 December 2014 - 09:00 PM