[QuickTidal]

 Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 01 June 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

This movie is so good it almost created its own genre. Compare the action in this movie to the action in other "action" movies and realize that nothing else is even in the same ballpark.

Indeed. Here's a good article on how the editing was a big component of the success behind the action and here's a good article that shows that MOST of what we see is completely "practical" in the effects department aside from backdrops (the Citadel ect.)

Both of these things should be hallmarks for Hollywood suits to realize that:

A. Practical effects are king for realism...and CGI is best used as an ASSISTANT to those practical elements.

B. Editing is important enough that MMFR proves that the penchant for action directors to always employ the same exact formats (be it shaky cam, or slow-mo close in fighting ect.) on an over saturated way is never a way to keep things fresh...and by centering the crosshairs of every shot in the middle of the frame, the editor has shown that the simplest method made the viewing of MMFR effortless.

They NEED to take these lessons I think...sadly they may be too up their own asses to do so.

[polishgenius]

I'm not gonna argue against Fury Road being a one-of-a-kind, landmark sort of film, because it is, but it's hardly the first, or only recent, film with concise, clear, practical-work based action. I'm (maybe) never going to stop insisting that The Raid, although a less-brilliant movie overall, is a better action film than this one, and though I know QT will violently disagree with me, I'll also raise something like Kick-Ass, where the skill of the direction and storytelling in the action scenes was one of the reasons I loved it.


Eta: it does say a lot about how much the Bourne Supremacy ruined action cinema (despite being brilliant in its own right) that this is even being discussed, though.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 01 June 2015 - 05:49 PM

[QuickTidal]

 polishgenius, on 01 June 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm not gonna argue against Fury Road being a one-of-a-kind, landmark sort of film, because it is, but it's hardly the first, or only recent, film with concise, clear, practical-work based action. I'm (maybe) never going to stop insisting that The Raid, although a less-brilliant movie overall, is a better action film than this one, and though I know QT will violently disagree with me, I'll also raise something like Kick-Ass, where the skill of the direction and storytelling in the action scenes was one of the reasons I loved it.

Oh, while I don't care for KICK-ASS at all...I can certainly accept that it's a solidly made film and an achievement in action filmmaking. I think my dislike came down more to story (not Vaughn's fault) and casting overall. The structure is also a tad wonky, but it's good from a film aspect.

THE RAID is great...but DREDD did that type of action film better (and was imagined and crafted first [Garland began the script in 2006, a full 5 years prior to the RAID writers], no matter what Raid fans might try to argue) IMHO...which is to say that if you are going to go thin on plot, at least make it more interesting for the full running time. THE RAID is awesome...but let's not forget that the last two major action sequences are "round" fights with nothing more to them. The build up is immense, but the payoff just felt like more of the samey samey to me.

For my cash MMFR elevated itself on all filmic levels, and that's something no action movie has done for my own enjoyment in a long, long time.

[polishgenius]

Both Dredd and The Raid are just copies of the French zombie film The Horde anyway (which, even though it's not as good, is great fun and definitely worth a look-see if you like this sort of thing).

Slight topic drift, but despite the similarities (and they go beyond just the basic premise, with things like the use of the central atrium and the declaration of the evil leader over the tannoy), I think there's more then enough room for both. The Raid is much purer action-based (looking back on it, there's surprisingly little actual fighting and stuff in Dredd, which is not a criticism), but I love the subtle-touch storytelling Dredd brings to the table, the myth-building around Judge Dredd himself is just great.

I kind of agree with your point about the action in The Raid, it is pretty one-note by the end; but I think the film keeps it just short enough that it doesn't harm it. The final scenes are helped a lot by the immense charisma of the chap playing Mad Dog.
The Raid 2 does that particular thing better, the action is much more varied and has room for story and character within the action itself- but unfortunately they're embedded within a very bloated and quite generic crime drama. Still a very good film, but it lacks that purity.

If the director can put together the pacing of the first one with the things he learned for the second, he'll one day make something really, really special.

Have you seen John Wick yet? I think you'd enjoy.


Anyway, Mad Max is indeed better than all films mentioned apart from perhaps Kick-Ass (well, objectively it's better, but I'm not sure I enjoyed it more), and the best action film since The Matrix in my book, I just don't think it's particularly fair to a lot of recent films to describe everything it does as something new and revolutionary.

[QuickTidal]

 polishgenius, on 01 June 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

Have you seen John Wick yet? I think you'd enjoy.


Anyway, Mad Max is indeed better than all films mentioned apart from perhaps Kick-Ass (well, objectively it's better, but I'm not sure I enjoyed it more), and the best action film since The Matrix in my book, I just don't think it's particularly fair to a lot of recent films to describe everything it does as something new and revolutionary.

JOHN WICK is on my list, and only lost out to holiday flight viewing to S1 of MANHATTAN, but it's very high on my list and I've heard great things.

I wanna say I agree with your last statement, but I'm seriously struggling to come up with an action-based film that isn't grade school compared to MMFR's university (at least in the last decade?). And the fact that it's all center-shot and edited IS kind of revolutionary, in that most action films haven't subscribed to such filmmaking since the 1980's...or at least the early 90's. So while not "new" as in never-done-before...it's certainly hearkening back to a different time of the craft and showcasing how great it was.

Also, on topic I wanted to point out how the wide shots would not been out of place in David Lean's LAWRENCE OF ARABIA...which for an action-chase movie is nothing short of bizarre genius. And if the colour-grader of the film doens't win ALL the awards, I'll be really upset. Every frame is worthy of a painting you could hang on your wall.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 01 June 2015 - 07:06 PM

[Cause]

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I should note, I'm SUPER impressed that not only does every woman featured in it have agency...and aside from Charlize Theron just basically kicking ass (indeed at a Ripley-level if not moreso, sorry PG) for two straight amazing hours...but the fact that Max spends the first probably 20-25 minutes as the damsel-in-distress makes this the most splendidly feminist flick that's come out...probably since CASINO ROYALE flipped all the sexist Bond tropes on their head. And that just makes me love it more.

Bit of a stretch. He saves himself.

A more pressing concern. Are you guys suggesting Dredd is a great movie?

[QuickTidal]

 Cause, on 01 June 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I should note, I'm SUPER impressed that not only does every woman featured in it have agency...and aside from Charlize Theron just basically kicking ass (indeed at a Ripley-level if not moreso, sorry PG) for two straight amazing hours...but the fact that Max spends the first probably 20-25 minutes as the damsel-in-distress makes this the most splendidly feminist flick that's come out...probably since CASINO ROYALE flipped all the sexist Bond tropes on their head. And that just makes me love it more.

Bit of a stretch. He saves himself.

Does he? He's literally captured twice in the span of the first ten minutes. He escapes in the opening only briefly, is recaptured, and then made into a hood ornament and a blood bank. It's through the car chase (which Furiosa enacts) and the resulting fight sequence (prior to the sandstorm) that he is able to get close enough to one of the two war boys (not Nux obviously) to got off the hood...he's still attached to Nux, and still goes down with him when he goes down in the storm. After waking up, he has has to get to Furiosa's War Rig...at which point he is GIVEN water, is GIVEN the jaws of life that allow him to be free of the chain, and then is GIVEN the file which allows him to free the face mask. He can't even escape with the truck because Furiosa has it rigged with a code. The only reason he's alive by the midway point and not back in the hands of Immortan Joe and the War boys, is due to Furiosa and her wards. He's the damsel for sure.

 Cause, on 01 June 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

A more pressing concern. Are you guys suggesting Dredd is a great movie?

DREDD is a phenomenal movie.

[Illuyankas]

I'm more concerned PG hasn't torn out their own eyes after the pretending to be gay to perv on his crush plotline in Kickass destroyed any possible enjoyment value from the rest of the movie, why yes I am still complaining about it and yes it is like someone ate some plutonium and took a radioactive dump on the film.

But Dredd was enjoyable and I liked a bit more than The Horde, haven't seen The Raid yet though.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 01 June 2015 - 07:32 PM

[polishgenius]

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

And the fact that it's all center-shot and edited IS kind of revolutionary, in that most action films haven't subscribed to such filmmaking since the 1980's...or at least the early 90's. So while not "new" as in never-done-before...it's certainly hearkening back to a different time of the craft and showcasing how great it was.

It's certainly been in the minority, especially in really high-profile films, but it's not been invisible. The thing about it is it's such a basic thing that you only really notice it when it's not there. John Wick does it, although in a different way because it cuts much less and pans and zooms much more, just more slowly than the jittercams (if you fancy seeing what I mean, short, spoilerless clip from an early scene here). Everything of significance happens in center shot though. To harp on, in Kick-Ass, the same is more-or-less true of Hit-Girl's scenes (Kick-Ass's are jittery on purpose because the camera matches the fighter in that film and Kick-Ass isn't very good, whereas Big Daddy's big scene is shot so wide that it's not really relevant). Those are the two I can name because those are the two films I liked enough to pay more attention and read and notice these things, but I bet there are more.



I really do hope the attention on Mad Max and the praise it's getting puts a stop to jittercam once and for all, I just don't want people to bin everything that went before in the Michael Bay basket.


Eta: the combination of the rapid-fire editing with the center-cam to provide a similar effect to the jitters but with actual visual clarity might be new. I don't know enough to say for sure, but I can't think of anything else that does it.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 01 June 2015 - 07:44 PM

[QuickTidal]

Shaky Cam action largely started into the mainstream, AKAIK, with SAVING PRIVATE RYAN (a film in which it's well suited)...but for whatever reason it's become defacto "action" setting for a lot of younger directors. Gareth Edwards loves it, as do Peter Berg, Matt Reeves, and Neil Blomkamp. More accomplished directors either never use it...or use it sparingly. Spielberg, for exmaple, only ever used it in SPR...it's not present in any of his other cinematic work. It's got roots in cinema verité...and I wish it would get its ass out of my movies.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 01 June 2015 - 07:50 PM

[amphibian]

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Shaky Cam action largely started into the mainstream, AKAIK, with SAVING PRIVATE RYAN (a film in which it's well suited)...but for whatever reason it's become defacto "action" setting for a lot of younger directors. Gareth Edwards loves it, as do Peter Berg, Matt Reeves, and Neil Blomkamp. More accomplished directors either never use it...or use it sparingly. Spielberg, for exmaple, only ever used it in SPR...it's not present in any of his other cinematic work. It's got roots in cinema verité...and I wish it would get its ass out of my movies.

Shaky cam is also cheap in comparison to the steady, center-shot stuff.

Cost is a huge consideration in the young director's set up of the film.

I know Greengrass kinda did the jumpcut action stuff for the person vs person fights in the Bourne movies because it let him put more money into the car chase stuff and so on.

[amphibian]

 Cause, on 01 June 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

A more pressing concern. Are you guys suggesting Dredd is a great movie?

The Karl Urban Dredd movie is tremendous.

It is true to the spirit of Dredd, inclusive of people who aren't dudes and expresses a terrific version of a grim, dystopian, yet enjoyable-to-watch possible future that the writers of that particular genre's movies have been aiming at and only occasionally reaching for decades.

And the action is brutal, well shot and the story makes sense.

[polishgenius]

 Illuyankas, on 01 June 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

I'm more concerned PG hasn't torn out their own eyes after the pretending to be gay to perv on his crush plotline in Kickass destroyed any possible enjoyment value from the rest of the movie, why yes I am still complaining about it and yes it is like someone ate some plutonium and took a radioactive dump on the film.

But Dredd was enjoyable and I liked a bit more than The Horde, haven't seen The Raid yet though.

Missed a post earlier:

I understand why people hated that and found it creepy but I guess I just took it on with much of the rest of it as part of the black comedy rather than something that elicited a genuine emotional response. So it didn't ping my radar in that way.



You really need to see The Raid. Cinematic adrenaline doesn't get more concentrated.

[stone monkey]

I don't actually loathe jittercam as much as some here seem to. Used well, it can add a welcome immediacy to proceedings, putting you into the scene without time to reflect on what you're watching. I think it's a matter of mood; the director may very well want their audience to be thinking "What the hell just happened? Did I actually see that?". I also continue to believe that Lyman used it considerably more effectively, and judiciously, in The Bourne Identity than Greengrass did in his subsequent entries in the series; but I think that Lyman is also, technically, a better director than Greengrass is; and I expect that it probably helps that Lyman does operate his own camera sometimes, so he knows what he wants to see and how to go about getting it.

I do, however, occasionally find myself wishing that people who complain that they can't follow any type of jittercam action sequence would just pay some fucking attention to what they're watching (and possibly also get off my lawn). And I personally think the worst offender for the quick cutting jittery nonsense is actually Chris Nolan, especially in Batman Begins; I understand the effect he was going for, but he really just didn't have the knack for action scenes back then. Whether he does now is a matter for discussion, I'd say.

But I do agree that many directors could (and should) learn a lot from Miller's approach in Fury Road, even if it's only to add another technique to their armory. I regard Bay as a huge offender in this regard. He's, very obviously, quite technically proficient, but what he's not is especially imaginative (or picky) in how he deploys his technique. He's needs someone (like Miller perhaps) to be out there showing him what can be done by successful example before he gets it; in this, I'd argue that he epitomises the mindset of a follower and not a leader. But that may also be one of the least of his problems imo.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 01 June 2015 - 11:38 PM

[polishgenius]

Oh, jittercam has its place; it's just that its place is to use it sparingly. That's why Identity is less noted for it than the other two - Liman only used it occasionally, to underscore a point, whereas Greengrass used it all the time (but he still does it competently enough that it's not too annoying, and it suits the films).

Nolan was indeed quite bad at it- that's why the only action scenes anyone really remembers from the first two films are the automotive ones, where it was much less in play.

[Cause]

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

 Cause, on 01 June 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

A more pressing concern. Are you guys suggesting Dredd is a great movie?

DREDD is a phenomenal movie.

This is not not a belief that can be common

[Imperial Historian]

 Cause, on 02 June 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

 Cause, on 01 June 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

A more pressing concern. Are you guys suggesting Dredd is a great movie?

DREDD is a phenomenal movie.

This is not not a belief that can be common

Wait, you don't think Dredd is a phenomenal film? Everyone I know who saw it rated it as one of the best action films to come out of hollywood in a long while. It's not the raid, but it's a pretty good film.

And 78% on rotten tomatoes for an action film is a pretty decent rating. Are you confusing it for the sylvester stallone film rather than the recent karl urban film.

[QuickTidal]

 Imperial Historian, on 02 June 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

 Cause, on 02 June 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 01 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

 Cause, on 01 June 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

A more pressing concern. Are you guys suggesting Dredd is a great movie?

DREDD is a phenomenal movie.

This is not not a belief that can be common

Wait, you don't think Dredd is a phenomenal film? Everyone I know who saw it rated it as one of the best action films to come out of hollywood in a long while. It's not the raid, but it's a pretty good film.

And 78% on rotten tomatoes for an action film is a pretty decent rating. Are you confusing it for the sylvester stallone film rather than the recent karl urban film.

Indeed, the only way this makes sense is that Cause is confusing the Karl Urban DREDD with the 90's Stallone JUDGE DREDD.

DREDD is up there with MAD MAX for me as one of the finest examples of greatness in the action movie genre in the 21st century.

[Illuyankas]

The Dredd we're referring to is the 2012 one:




While you're probably thinking of the 1995 one:

[QuickTidal]

Those GIFs are perfect. LOL