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Ferguson / USA Race Violence / Etc

#61 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:43 AM

It's allowed, obviously.

I kind of skimmed this post earlier when I was looking for references to the registration issues I talked about. Something to add to one of phib's points:

View Postamphibian, on 26 November 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

The gerrymandering in the US is particularly bad. All political parties involved in government engage in gerrymandering (rigging election districts to produce dramatic majorities for one party above the other). They try to rig things their way, but by and large, the Republicans have won the local and state levels often enough that the lines really favor Republicans to win local and state level elections by slicing the voting districts to skew white in the in-between-city-and-country areas and concentrate minority votes in purely city districts as often as possible. The skill in gerrymandering lies mostly in the manipulation of the not-sure-fire-for-one-party district lines.

Let's say we have 50,000 minority people in Area A (has 5 districts that send one gov't representative each to State Gov't) who usually vote for Working Party or Democratic out of 150,000 , they have more of a voice in gov't representation if they're spread out across 5 different districts, rather than if they're all in the same one or if 2,000 are left in one district, 1,500 in two, 5,000 in one and 40,000 in another. If evenly spread out across the 5 districts, the 10,000 minority voters in each of the 5 districts have to be paid attention to by more gov't representatives. They're a big enough voting group that they have to be paid attention to. If they're all squeezed into the one, then the other four gov't representatives can completely ignore them and cater harder to the 100,000 non-minority voters.

This is also why Republicans have been getting more and more extreme in recent years; they've gerrymandered their districts so red that they don't have to pay any attention at all to centrist views any more. This was supposed to be a good thing for them, but it ended up biting them in the ass because now they've got to go further and further to the right to avoid getting primaried by the hard core of GOP voters.

Of course, GOP senators are getting primaried from the right too, and they don't have gerrymandered districts (the whole state votes for them) but that's because the voters have the taste of blood; they've seen it work so many times with their House districts, and the Democratic voters usually aren't messing with their senate primaries anyway.

I am from Mississippi, which along with Alabama is the most politically recalcitrant state in the old Confederacy. Back in the day when the Democratic party was split between mostly southern segregationists and mostly northern liberals, MS and AL have been known to go it alone in the electoral college for the segregationist. My incumbent Republican senator Thad Cochran was elected in the year I was born, 1978, after the South had started to switch to Republicans at the national level.

Cochran was primaried this year by a guy in the Ted Cruz mold, a state senator named Chris McDaniel. Cochran recruited black voters to come out for the Republican primary to put a stop to McDaniel, which was easy to do since 1) our Democratic front-runner was a Dixiecrat, in other words a conservative unlikely to inspire black voters, and 2) McDaniel had a reputation for being a neo-confederate, which was probably not entirely fair, just because he spoke to the Sons of Confederate Veterans which is a very popular organization in the South and hardly the KKK. My grandmothers were members of the women's version, and I was a member of the children's version because I am descended from Confederate veterans. I won't deny that they are typical white southerners who pine for the antebellum days, but they are no more racist than your average white person down here; the organization bespeaks a certain middle or upper class status more than anything else; poor people ain't got time for that.

Anyway, McDaniel voters went absolutely crazy when Cochran recruited black voters. Of course, many of them didn't phrase it that way; his sin was recruiting Democrats (which is not really true; he specifically recruited black voters). His real sin was that it worked, but it made these people so angry to know that the GOP primary had been influenced by black voters. What really made them angry was that black voters had any political power at all. This is Mississippi; only white people can have political power here, except that one House district that we begrudgingly gave up a long time ago. It's our birthright, and if you don't like it, then you can move to Detroit, or whatever.

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#62 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:53 PM

View PostTiste Simeon, on 26 November 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Can anyone au fait with the US justice system tell me if that is allowed? Seems to me like a ref in a game coming on wearing one of the emblems of the teams playing.


I don't believe that you can redo/appeal a grand jury, but the prosecutor can still try and convince a trial judge that they have enough of a case to start a trial.
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#63 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:54 PM

So stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but some people genuinely believe it could possibly be justifiable to shoot and kill a twelve year old child because that child carried a replica gun and didn't immediately react to orders from a police officer?

People are sick.
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#64 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:03 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

So stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but some people genuinely believe it could possibly be justifiable to shoot and kill a twelve year old child because that child carried a replica gun and didn't immediately react to orders from a police officer?

People are sick.


Some people? Probably.

People in this thread? Not so much.
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#65 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:03 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

So stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but some people genuinely believe it could possibly be justifiable to shoot and kill a twelve year old child because that child carried a replica gun and didn't immediately react to orders from a police officer?

People are sick.


Is it acceptable for a police officer to get shot and killed because he assumed the twelve year old had a replica gun and not a real one?

That is how the police are trained. I don't like it, but I understand why it is done that way.
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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:07 PM

Honestly I think the issue here is one of details: how exactly did the kid react? Not putting his gun down? Starting to (pretend) to shoot? Reaching for it if he wasn't holding it?

Either way, pretty hard to justify going straight to lethal force, as I noted earlier.

But seriously, there is almost no way to identify whether that gun was real or not until it was fired.

All I really know is, I probably couldn't live with myself afterward if I was that cop...
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Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#67 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:11 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

So stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but some people genuinely believe it could possibly be justifiable to shoot and kill a twelve year old child because that child carried a replica gun and didn't immediately react to orders from a police officer?

People are sick.

In the US, it seems most people believe that. Most say it's a tragedy, but they blame the parents and the kid in that order before they blame the cop.

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

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There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

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#68 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:18 PM

View PostSilencer, on 26 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Honestly I think the issue here is one of details: how exactly did the kid react? Not putting his gun down? Starting to (pretend) to shoot? Reaching for it if he wasn't holding it?

Either way, pretty hard to justify going straight to lethal force, as I noted earlier.

But seriously, there is almost no way to identify whether that gun was real or not until it was fired.

All I really know is, I probably couldn't live with myself afterward if I was that cop...


The police say he was reaching for the gun in his waistband.

That said, I thought I saw somewhere that the cop was wearing a cam, so hopefully we will get to see the video at some point.

I feel like a lot of people dehumanize the police, in that they are humans and want to go home to their families at night as well, and are trained to be as safe as possible.

That said, there are a ton of issues regarding how different parts of the public feel towards police, some of which are justified and some of which are not.
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#69 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:19 PM

View PostObdigore, on 26 November 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

So stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but some people genuinely believe it could possibly be justifiable to shoot and kill a twelve year old child because that child carried a replica gun and didn't immediately react to orders from a police officer?

People are sick.


Is it acceptable for a police officer to get shot and killed because he assumed the twelve year old had a replica gun and not a real one?

That is how the police are trained. I don't like it, but I understand why it is done that way.


Yes it is. The police have a monopoly on state sanctioned use of force. They are expected to act with more restraint than a regular person. It is all but never acceptable to shoot first and ask later, and yes, they should wait until there is no doubt that their lives are threatened. And even then, even when they are directly threatened other options should be considered first.

This is the same issue that confuses me with the whole Ferguson debacle. Even if we take the testimony of the police officer at face value, there's still no way I'd consider shooting Brown to be the correct response, or even a defendable one.
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#70 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:44 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

View PostObdigore, on 26 November 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

So stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but some people genuinely believe it could possibly be justifiable to shoot and kill a twelve year old child because that child carried a replica gun and didn't immediately react to orders from a police officer?

People are sick.


Is it acceptable for a police officer to get shot and killed because he assumed the twelve year old had a replica gun and not a real one?

That is how the police are trained. I don't like it, but I understand why it is done that way.


Yes it is. The police have a monopoly on state sanctioned use of force. They are expected to act with more restraint than a regular person. It is all but never acceptable to shoot first and ask later, and yes, they should wait until there is no doubt that their lives are threatened. And even then, even when they are directly threatened other options should be considered first.

This is the same issue that confuses me with the whole Ferguson debacle. Even if we take the testimony of the police officer at face value, there's still no way I'd consider shooting Brown to be the correct response, or even a defendable one.



I see. So the police officer should lay down his/her life so the person attacking them doesn't get hurt? I guess that is one way to look at it.
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#71 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:46 PM

It is the practice of most if not all other police forces in the western world. So I'm not so sure that funny is the right word.

Edit: No one used the word funny...

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 26 November 2014 - 01:57 PM

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#72 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:49 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

It is the practice of most if not all other police forces in the western world. So I'm not so sure that funny is the right word.


And most if not all other police forces don't deal with the kinds of cultural/economic hopelessness and wide availability of firearms that the US does, especially in the inner cities.
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#73 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:49 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

It is the practice of most if not all other police forces in the western world. So I'm not so sure that funny is the right word.

Good thing no one used it, then. But in defense of "funny", it has two distinct senses. I discussed this the other day with my French tutor. :(

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#74 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 01:57 PM

View PostObdigore, on 26 November 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

It is the practice of most if not all other police forces in the western world. So I'm not so sure that funny is the right word.


And most if not all other police forces don't deal with the kinds of cultural/economic hopelessness and wide availability of firearms that the US does, especially in the inner cities.


Uhuh. With an exception of Norway and Iceland, there's not a single country in Europe that does not have more dangerous areas than those found in Ferguson. There is heavy crime in Europe too, you see. Not to mention poverty. These days Europe competes quite well with the US when it comes to cultural and economic hopelessnes too.
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#75 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:15 PM

Ferguson is not a high crime area, especially not high in violent crimes. There have been about 20 murders since 2000, not counting police shootings, which are of course never murders.

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There it is.

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#76 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 03:15 PM

View PostSombra, on 26 November 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

I'd say the Reps are shitting themselves when they look at the projections of the proportions of blacks and hispanics in the general population over the next 20, 30, 50+ years. They're going to have to do some fancy footwork to negate those numbers. Or simply make them not want to vote, which I'd say is probably more likely. I do find it grimly amusing how some of the most rusted-on Rep voters are those who are most disadvantaged by Rep policies when you take a halfway decent look at them. I genuinely have no idea why anyone who isn't a one-percenter would vote for the GOP, but somehow they manage. probably has something to do with them and their mates owning pretty much all the media, finance, industrial corporations etc and their skill at muddying the political waters. Will that change with the rise of the tech giants with their supposedly more liberal tendencies? Or will these new rich get co-opted into the Republican fold?

Right now, we're not seeing a cozying up of the Republicans to minority voters despite the apparent obviousness. They appear to be doubling down actually on their current positions, which appeal mightily to white voters, and aren't changing their positions appreciably on the issues that matter most to minorities. This lack of movement does not actually seem to be costing them elections yet - aside from Presidential and the occasional Congressional elections.

People back in 2008 or so were talking about the growing need for the Republicans to change, but in the last 6 years, we've seen a big shift over to Tea Party lunacy and then a tiny hop back over towards the moderate portion of the spectrum as the Tea Party lost momentum.

I think we're 15 years away from the Republicans actually making the shifts in policy aimed towards Hispanic voters and sticking to them. Part of that has to do with the low rate of Hispanic voter registration - there's a lot of Hispanics, but they don't vote in droves like old white people do.
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#77 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 03:21 PM

One of the things that really bugs me is that Darren Wilson was sitting in the driver's seat (on the left side of the car) and is right handed, yet took punches from a right handed Brown to the right side of his face while Wilson was going for his gun.

That's... not a position that makes sense. Brown should be hitting Wilson's left side of the face - especially if Wilson is turning towards his gun hip to get the gun out. Wilson specifically mentions that Brown had the cigarillos in his left hand and wasn't punching with that hand, so it's just a strange position for them to be in.
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#78 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 03:23 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

View PostObdigore, on 26 November 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 26 November 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

It is the practice of most if not all other police forces in the western world. So I'm not so sure that funny is the right word.


And most if not all other police forces don't deal with the kinds of cultural/economic hopelessness and wide availability of firearms that the US does, especially in the inner cities.


Uhuh. With an exception of Norway and Iceland, there's not a single country in Europe that does not have more dangerous areas than those found in Ferguson. There is heavy crime in Europe too, you see. Not to mention poverty. These days Europe competes quite well with the US when it comes to cultural and economic hopelessnes too.


I thought we were discussing the US and their police training as a whole, not specifically Ferguson. I don't believe police are trained to police a certain area, but rather trained to police the 'worst' areas. It's the same reason you should never use soldiers in a civilian policing action.
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#79 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 06:10 PM

I am only going to say this once as its pure speculation..

In Fifteen years we will see a huge shift of Black and Latino votes shifting to the right. I am not going go into it though, just to state this should not surprise anyone here.

In terms of Police training I think this is the problem. However seeing how are country is going. I would also not be surprised if there is a call for true federalization of police forces due to monetary and civil actions in our country in the next decade. I am in the view this would be a bad bad thing. This already happens to a degree I know. I know if you view the federal grants + military equipment--this was of course sold as training for counter-terrorist activities. The militarization and true federalization are to different steps entirely. Also, looking back people thought ten years ago blackwater and private security would take over so this has always been a discussed topic.

The militarization of local Police Forces is what led to these problems. I view the fact police went from two people to one person in a cruiser to be a huge tactical nightmare. These two things would help and as mentioned before it takes years for a rookie cop to get to the level needed. If people responded in pairs they could attach a young officer 1-6 years with someone of 7 or more years of experience as this is the minimum needed time to get the job and should be adopted as a SOP nationwide.

Quote

I thought we were discussing the US and their police training as a whole, not specifically Ferguson. I don't believe police are trained to police a certain area, but rather trained to police the 'worst' areas. It's the same reason you should never use soldiers in a civilian policing action.


This is 100% true in Phoenix. My buddy is a cop and they get out of academy and the first two years they are sent to the worst and gang infested areas in the city on the overnight shifts.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 26 November 2014 - 06:11 PM

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 08:52 PM

The legal proliferation of guns in the U.S. make any comparison to most other Western nations' policing problematic. Cops are trained to protect themselves first because they die a lot.

Re: "redoing" the grand jury. The prosecutor still has the discretion to prosecute on their own (generally, all the states have their own systems). They use the Grand Jury when they want to get out of not just using their prosecutorial privilege for political reasons. Prosecutors are elected, you see....
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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