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Ferguson / USA Race Violence / Etc

#21 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 08:28 PM

View Postworry, on 25 November 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

View PostObdigore, on 25 November 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

There is no 'increasing violence police officers are allowed to get away with', its more that we can now televise/study/social media that violence.


Perhaps (it does make a kind of common sense), but I would not advise taking even this for granted:
http://www.sltrib.co...-outpacing-gang


Every one of those (that isn't infowars) was about someone being arrested later or had the gun not pointed at someone when confronted by the police.

(Sorry, I was referring to Amphibians link, not what you put up, I quoted the wrong post)

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 25 November 2014 - 08:28 PM

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#22 User is online   Not a Sheep 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:13 PM

@studlock

Dude I just read the Grove thread and Sombra's comments did in no way seem racists. All your f bombs and calling him that were way out of fucking line. In all my yrs here I don't think I've ever told someone to shut the fuck up and I don't plan to start now so I ll just say to cool it. If I was a mod I would ev banned you a bit for that shit.

I'm done continue on.
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#23 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:04 PM

Since the other shooting was brought up and my thoughts on it are similar to the feguson issue

This article was posted on face book recently/
http://www.aljazeera...3851190611.html

I made the following comment

"My sympathy in these stories is actually always with the police officers. 911 received a call about a possible real/fake gun the officers were then simply told gun, the toy gun had the safety signs removed and the boy when told to put his hands in the air reached for his gun. The officer is trained to shoot in that situation as a matter of reflex and now must suffer the guilt of this tragedy and doubly so must suffer through the publics moral outrage (a public who can't fully understand the circumstances) and the police departments review (which has weeks to second guess a decision a police officer was forced to make in a split second."

Someone replied

"Toy guns are a huge problem, especially realistic looking ones. They should be banned. The police are also not adequately trained in disarming rather than shooting. Shooting and killing a child is horrific. I wonder if the police didnt care a damn and just shot to kill OR if it was that they thought they were thinking they would be shot. Surely they should be trained to first be fired at? Its all very sad."

I replied

"Outside of Hollywood you can't disarm someone with a gun without getting shot, If you pull your gun to shoot someone, you shoot to kill. Otherwise why did you shoot. To ask our police officers to allow themselves to be fired upon first is to ask them to very possibly die. Why believe the suspect/criminal will miss? A police officers life is no less important than a child s or a man or women. Given that its there job to confront such situations every day we should not judge them solely by the few tragedies.

If this story is accurate as much as it seems callous to say so th fault lies equally if not more so with the child (in so much as 12 year old can be responsible) and with his parents. A twelve year old should not be playing with a replica toy gun with the safety sign removed unsupervised in a public space."


Police officers are people. They have training and a duty to uphold and should be upheld to a higher standard than the avergae citizen but some people ask for perfection. Its impossible, not reasonable and too often a knee jerk response to a tragedy. To ask that they should be required to be fired upon first.

Now the above ties into the feguson case and I said all the above before even realizing the child was black and the officer white, though I almost made a comment 'just wait till someone adds a racial component to this'

Now as to Ferguson, The grand jury was 9 whites and 3 blacks? Are Grand juries not larger and if the town majority is black that seems weird. Still its been unclear from day one what happened and amazingly it still seems unclear. A white man shooting a black man is not racist. a white man shooting a man because he is black is. Telling the two apart is incredibly difficult. Still I hesitate to say give the officer the benefit of the doubt but equally we should not hope to see him go to jail just to avoid the appearance of not punishing a racist.
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#24 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:05 PM

View PostObdigore, on 25 November 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Every one of those (that isn't infowars) was about someone being arrested later or had the gun not pointed at someone when confronted by the police.

(Sorry, I was referring to Amphibians link, not what you put up, I quoted the wrong post)

First link: http://www.kctv5.com...ft-gun-at-woman

Quote

In Merriam, KS, last week, police were called to Robinhood Lane off Shawnee Mission Parkway. A neighbor said she saw three people in full camouflage with what looked like assault rifles. Police responded and one of the officers said someone pointed the rifle at him. The officer drew his weapon and was ready to shoot when he noticed the orange tip on the barrel.


There's a few more of the cops arriving on-scene with the weapon evident. One had a Florida black kid yelled at by police to drop his weapon when doing target practice in his backyard with his family around, yelling at the police that it was an airsoft rifle, and then tackled/arrested.

A few of the second page results have white kids actually shooting someone/chasing multiple people with the airsoft pistol/rifle and the police calmly collect them.
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#25 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:10 PM

View PostStudlock, on 25 November 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Apologies for the weird OP, I just want to quickly provide a thread if anyone wanted to continue discussing. As for the Grand Jury decision, we in fact have access to all the evidence presented, and it's very troubling for two different reasons. One the story Wilson tells the Grand Jury is completely different than what the police original reported, as well as being utterly dehumanizing as possible as much as possible (http://apps.stlpubli...t/evidence.html). The other reason, for me personally, that was disturbing was a letter from the medical examiner who was denied access to: police crime scene photographs and reports, the results of the forensic examination of the patrol car, the original hospital report of Michael Brown, the emergency room examination of Wilson, the ballistic information, results of autopsy hand swabs, fingernail clipping examinations, and witness statements. Supposedly they couldn't take photographs because the camera battier died.

That is abnormal and extremely shady. We only really have the polices word on many important things, and simply I don't trust the police. The 'life-threatening' injuries of Wilson was literally a slight bruise on his right cheek. The more and more I look into the evidence and testimonies the more this looks like a clean-up. I'm generally not a conspiracy-type person but I'm becoming more and more convinced this is in fact a cover-up, and that just simply makes me anger/sad.

@Tiste, I don't necessarily agree with the violent outbrust, I understand it, but not necessarily agree. That being said this wasn't even as big as a riot as the one in Sans Fran after their baseball team won the championship. There is an overemphasis on the 'bad' actions of African-Americans all the time in America, even in times of understandable lashing out. They (and by I mean the power structures of America) expect them to sit there like a nice little boy as they condone the continued shootings of their brothers, sons, fathers, and cousins so I don't overly agree with your sentiment. No matter what they do they're going to suffer on some level, so a cathartic release of rage is, for me, understandable.

I'll need a better look @ the evidence b4 commenting on that, but about looting: it doesn't need to be part of a protest. It shouldn't be, it accomplishes nothing, and it only fosters greater resentment from the general public to the people who perpetuate it to "make themselves heard".

I'm loathe to draw parallels, but the 3-months long street protests in the centre of Kyyiv have resulted in exactly ONE burned down store-as a result of a molotov duel between police and protesters and a fire that got out of control.

I will very much speak on behalf of the "general public"--if you don't trust the police and want to show it, and you're getting emotional, break the window in a police station. Or your representative's house, or the city hall/county/state legislature. By destroying someone's business you will achieve nothing other than inciting that person against your own group.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#26 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:11 PM

View PostCause, on 25 November 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Now as to Ferguson, The grand jury was 9 whites and 3 blacks? Are Grand juries not larger and if the town majority is black that seems weird. Still its been unclear from day one what happened and amazingly it still seems unclear. A white man shooting a black man is not racist. a white man shooting a man because he is black is. Telling the two apart is incredibly difficult. Still I hesitate to say give the officer the benefit of the doubt but equally we should not hope to see him go to jail just to avoid the appearance of not punishing a racist.

The town of Ferguson is 67% black.

One of the problems of representation is that a lot of the juries (almost all?) are pulled from voter registration pools - and when the system disincentivizes the black vote by making it more difficult for them to register to vote or by putting felonies on people (revoking the right to vote), it's often not easy to balance the juries.

The problem with the Ferguson grand jury decision is that it's incredibly rare for a grand jury to decide that it isn't worth a trial to figure out the facts - it's something like 0.0068% of the times grand juries are convened, they don't kick the case on further to a trial.

It's possible the grand jury looked at the impartially presented evidence and said "No, there's not enough here." I doubt that. I think the prosecutor purposely slanted the evidence to make it look like Wilson was blameless of any crime and the abysmal history of Ferguson's legal/law enforcement systems shows ample evidence of racist people in positions of power.
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#27 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:16 PM

Add some information for you all:

http://heyjackass.com/

Some good data there ^
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#28 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:23 PM

Quote

“A police officer is not like a normal citizen who discharges their weapon,” said Lori Lightfoot, a Chicago attorney who previously probed police shootings. “There is a presumption that somebody who is a peace officer, and is thereby authorized to use lethal force, used it correctly.”


-From the case.

Kind of places them above the law.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 November 2014 - 10:23 PM

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#29 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:30 PM

View Postamphibian, on 25 November 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

View PostCause, on 25 November 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Now as to Ferguson, The grand jury was 9 whites and 3 blacks? Are Grand juries not larger and if the town majority is black that seems weird. Still its been unclear from day one what happened and amazingly it still seems unclear. A white man shooting a black man is not racist. a white man shooting a man because he is black is. Telling the two apart is incredibly difficult. Still I hesitate to say give the officer the benefit of the doubt but equally we should not hope to see him go to jail just to avoid the appearance of not punishing a racist.

The town of Ferguson is 67% black.

One of the problems of representation is that a lot of the juries (almost all?) are pulled from voter registration pools - and when the system disincentivizes the black vote by making it more difficult for them to register to vote or by putting felonies on people (revoking the right to vote), it's often not easy to balance the juries.

The problem with the Ferguson grand jury decision is that it's incredibly rare for a grand jury to decide that it isn't worth a trial to figure out the facts - it's something like 0.0068% of the times grand juries are convened, they don't kick the case on further to a trial.

It's possible the grand jury looked at the impartially presented evidence and said "No, there's not enough here." I doubt that. I think the prosecutor purposely slanted the evidence to make it look like Wilson was blameless of any crime and the abysmal history of Ferguson's legal/law enforcement systems shows ample evidence of racist people in positions of power.


You can't vote in america if you have ever been convicted of a felony? Are you serious?

Also I believe that statistic is only for federal GJ.
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#30 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:39 PM

For the record, Tamir Rice was a child playing with a toy gun at a park and he did not point that toy gun at the officer.
http://www.huffingto..._n_6211064.html
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#31 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:42 PM

And yes that statistic is only for federal grand juries. It's actually much rarer for state or local grand juries to indict police officers after shootings...but that is a worse statistic, not a better one. The discrepancy is (part of) the issue.
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#32 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:46 PM

View Postamphibian, on 25 November 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

One of the problems of representation is that a lot of the juries (almost all?) are pulled from voter registration pools - and when the system disincentivizes the black vote by making it more difficult for them to register to vote or by putting felonies on people (revoking the right to vote), it's often not easy to balance the juries.


Not being facetious here, but how is it more difficult for black people to register to vote?

I knew about the felony thing - that came out of documentaries about how Bush et al stole the 2000 election, especially in Florida.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 25 November 2014 - 10:46 PM

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#33 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:49 PM

Okay so the officer for the 12 year airsoft shooting has a body camera. Fantastic.

I can't begin to imagine the upbringing, social surroundings or TV that has led to a 12 year old being faced by armed police officers saying nah fool in response to commands to put his hands in the air. Sadly and I'm sorry to say it that kid killed himself.
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#34 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:12 PM

Thanks for the "nah fool" part. I was almost under the impression I wasn't going to see something like that here of all places, but it actually helps bring me down to reality. Not joking, it's good for me.

I suppose I will have to rethink whether or not a 12 year old playing with toy guns at a park who didn't behave immediately like a suspect when an adult stranger -- in the midst of his playing -- called out to him to put his hands up, might just as likely have been intending suicide by cop in a blaze of defiant glory. But I would urge you, in turn, to Occam's Razor that.
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#35 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:43 PM

View Postworry, on 25 November 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Thanks for the "nah fool" part. I was almost under the impression I wasn't going to see something like that here of all places, but it actually helps bring me down to reality. Not joking, it's good for me.

I suppose I will have to rethink whether or not a 12 year old playing with toy guns at a park who didn't behave immediately like a suspect when an adult stranger -- in the midst of his playing -- called out to him to put his hands up, might just as likely have been intending suicide by cop in a blaze of defiant glory. But I would urge you, in turn, to Occam's Razor that.



I was looking for the article to defend myself but I was mistaken. Too many links to too many shootings open and I was reading the wrong one. http://www.sltrib.co...-outpacing-gang

This post has been edited by Cause: 25 November 2014 - 11:47 PM

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#36 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:45 PM

Are any of you around kids, if a kid points a toy at a Cop/Adult, they usually think it's a game. I could think of countless situations this could happen.

<oh ok that makes more sense>

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 November 2014 - 11:50 PM

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#37 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 25 November 2014 - 11:53 PM

View PostNicodimas, on 25 November 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

Are any of you around kids, if a kid points a toy at a Cop/Adult, they usually think it's a game. I could think of countless situations this could happen.

As an adult, I do not think it is rational to train our ***kids*** to be so much in fear of Cop that they need to heed commands like they are some heathen of a criminal.

They play as they are children.


I have a toy gun, its plastic red green and yellow has two bulbs and squirts water.

A black gun that is a revolver replica with the orange tip removed to make it even more of a replica is an accident waiting to happen. A pellet gun in the hands of an unsupervised 12 year old is an accident waiting to happen. The parents should not have allowed it to happen.

As for the police commands I was confusing two separate situations so I withdraw those remarks.

Nicodimas if you told a child to put his hands in the air and he instead reached for a gun/replica gun what would you do in the spur of the moment? I can't say for certain myself, having never been in such a situation, but I can't confidently say I certainly would not have fired. I can't end a man's career or send him to jail for such an act.
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#38 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:20 AM

View PostCause, on 25 November 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

View PostNicodimas, on 25 November 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

Are any of you around kids, if a kid points a toy at a Cop/Adult, they usually think it's a game. I could think of countless situations this could happen.

As an adult, I do not think it is rational to train our ***kids*** to be so much in fear of Cop that they need to heed commands like they are some heathen of a criminal.

They play as they are children.


I have a toy gun, its plastic red green and yellow has two bulbs and squirts water.

A black gun that is a revolver replica with the orange tip removed to make it even more of a replica is an accident waiting to happen. A pellet gun in the hands of an unsupervised 12 year old is an accident waiting to happen. The parents should not have allowed it to happen.

As for the police commands I was confusing two separate situations so I withdraw those remarks.

Nicodimas if you told a child to put his hands in the air and he instead reached for a gun/replica gun what would you do in the spur of the moment? I can't say for certain myself, having never been in such a situation, but I can't confidently say I certainly would not have fired. I can't end a man's career or send him to jail for such an act.


Overall, terrible situation that person will have to live with it and carry for the rest of his life.
I'm not going to argue the appearance of a toy. That could go on endlessly.

Can't watch kids every moment and they may have been with a sitter, etc.

If I told to put a kids hands in the air, they would probably ignore me, because I am a stranger. Or not the parent they know, kids don't take that much that serious. I will argue the point that they should follow a cops instructions, but I am not teaching kids to be fearful as in Fire/Emergency situation they run and hide as is. Also, remember a kid looks up to a cop..so it goes back to play and maturity level..etc

I could. It's a kid and as a man he should have had more honor and self discipline.
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#39 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:29 AM

Okay, I see you were accidentally referring to a whole other incident (that was a wholly unarmed white kid in Utah btw). That said, yah, police shootings of unarmed individuals and kids with toys happens so often that it's not hard to get them confused. "Too many links" indeed!
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#40 User is offline   Tru 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 12:31 AM

Pretty much this:

Quote

(a public who can't fully understand the circumstances)


The initial/early reactions and information (often misinformation and over reactions) that come from any and all emotionally charged tragedies over history should be enough to educate us on the pitfalls of spewing in relative ignorance. It is terrible these things occur, have occurred, and will continue to occur, but they are most often far more complex than we realize. Here are some things to consider at least:

My brother is in the Navy, we had a disicussion about this today before i logged on here. He said that anytime an attacker come within (he used an official term I don't remember) reach of an armed officer/armed forces officer, the the danger above all else is the opportunity the assailant has to disarm and use said weapon against the officer or the public. In that circumstance, at least in the Navy, they are trained to use lethal force as a means to self preservation, and to protect the public. I do not know the details of the Ferguson case, and therefore will not comment on whether or not it was necessary for the officer to shoot his assailant.

The 12 year old being killed is tragic, yet it really does not surprise me that this occurred in todays USA. We are "gun shy" to use a terrible pun, but given the recent history of mass shootings in schools, theaters, etc...my guess is that law enforcement officers have been trained differently than they were in the past, and the whole notion of "shoot first, ask questions later," comes to mind. I'm not saying the officer didn't do the right thing, I'm saying that there are reasons why they would be extremely on guard about avoiding another large scale tragedy. Apparently, in today's USA, it is no longer ok for kids to play their games with toy guns. It's a sad commentary on where we have arrived, and the questions will continue to be posed; what are we doing differently now, as a society, as parents, as kids, as a popular culture?

Quote

One of the problems of representation is that a lot of the juries (almost all?) are pulled from voter registration pools - and when the system disincentivizes the black vote by making it more difficult for them to register to vote or by putting felonies on people (revoking the right to vote), it's often not easy to balance the juries.


As a mere FYI: The selection, especially for a grand jury, is rather complex with more than a few checks and balances along the way. I myself have been placed in the large group that gets to watch the video..wait around, and then get wittled down to a smaller but still too large group. Then you get to sit in a courtroom and be asked questions by both defense and prosecuting attorneys, then they go deliberate. (by this time your whole day sacrificed.) Then you get narrowed further based on a fair bit of sorcery, and possibly some necromancy mixed in. What I am saying is this...The fact that it was 6 whites and 3 blacks when 67% of the population are black, well shame on the prosecution then if they felt that it mattered to have more black jurists. Or it could be that they felt that the 6 white jurists were not racist, nor had police offers as family members. I don't think it had anything to do with having only 3 black people to choose from in a group of 100 people called in to jury duty.
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