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Ferguson / USA Race Violence / Etc

#81 User is online   worry 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:26 PM

The Tamir Rice shooting video has been released. The car pulls up, the cop opens his door and immediately shoots the kid.
http://www.cleveland...cer_shot_1.html
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#82 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:39 PM

http://videos.clevel...deo_captur.html

Here's the full video, at 6:40 or so things begin happening.

Make up your own mind, but it is really fucking disturbing.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#83 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:50 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

http://videos.clevel...deo_captur.html

Here's the full video, at 6:40 or so things begin happening.

Make up your own mind, but it is really fucking disturbing.



Wow @ Hoosier.

Not much to defend here. Seconds.
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#84 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:51 PM

I mean you can see that he had a gun in his hands but it didn't look like he was using it in what might be perceived as a threatening manner. Would be good if there was audio too.
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#85 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:54 PM

If it was reported that he had a gun, and I think it was (but not that the person thought it was fake), you don't pull RIGHT THE FUCK UP to them and emerge firing. You need to issue voice commands first, and you should do it from a distance that doesn't put you in IMMEDIATE deadly danger.

IMO, the video is going to get this cop some hardcore prison time.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#86 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:01 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The legal proliferation of guns in the U.S. make any comparison to most other Western nations' policing problematic. Cops are trained to protect themselves first because they die a lot.

This is true, but Darren Wilson knew Mike Brown didn't have a gun.

As for Tamir Rice, what you said. For those who didn't catch it earlier in the thread, this is the second incident recently where Ohio cops shot a person holding a BB gun. The other was an adult black male in a Walmart who was holding a product he got off the Walmart shelf. The surveillance video for the Walmart case also didn't look good for the cops, but they weren't charged. And what kind of dangerous people with guns dick around without shooting anyone until the cops get there, anyway? In neither case was the person with the (fake) gun even threatening anyone.

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Please proceed, Governor.

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There it is.

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#87 User is online   worry 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:01 PM

They claimed to have issued commands three times. But as you can see, he shoots immediately after they pull up. So what, they issued three commands in the time it takes to speed your car up to a person in a small parking lot? Megaphone distortion + Doppler effect + 1-2 seconds = three fair warnings? I'm not sure it's possible period, let alone possible to hear, comprehend, and react to.
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#88 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:27 PM

View PostBriar King, on 26 November 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

Yea I don't have the heart to attempt to watch a vid of a kid getting killed. So I ll take y'all's word in this one.


It's sad that we need the video so that we can see for ourselves. Not being able to take the police's word has sadly become a necessary fact with this sort of thing.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#89 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:31 PM

That video is fucked. Like holy shit. There was no hesitation, the cop gets out and I don't even think the door is fully open before he's shot the kid. No way in hell that cop said anything to the kid, let alone warned him three times.

What the hell is going on in this world? That cop needs to be arrested and charged for that.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 November 2014 - 11:34 PM

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#90 User is online   worry 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 12:04 AM

Ta-Nehesi Coates, as usual, with some wisdom and perspective on violence and non-violence (and Obama's milquetoast Ferguson speech): http://www.theatlant...-unsaid/383212/
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#91 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 12:32 AM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

http://videos.clevel...deo_captur.html

Here's the full video, at 6:40 or so things begin happening.

Make up your own mind, but it is really fucking disturbing.


Stunningly sad.


I'm impressed with the paper for posting it with the 6 minutes prior to the shooting. There's no room for the typical apologist "well the media only showed the 5 seconds before the shooting; you don't get to see what led up to it".
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#92 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:21 AM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The legal proliferation of guns in the U.S. make any comparison to most other Western nations' policing problematic. Cops are trained to protect themselves first because they die a lot.

Being a cab driver is more dangerous than being a police officer.

I posted earlier about the risk of being shot as a police officer and they get injured/die as much or more in car crashes than they get shot.
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#93 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:29 AM

View Postamphibian, on 27 November 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The legal proliferation of guns in the U.S. make any comparison to most other Western nations' policing problematic. Cops are trained to protect themselves first because they die a lot.

Being a cab driver is more dangerous than being a police officer.

I posted earlier about the risk of being shot as a police officer and they get injured/die as much or more in car crashes than they get shot.


Statistics aside: You know as a police officer that you will be in deadly situations. It is why you are armed in the first place. The PRIMARY reason police have a firearm is because they are likely to face criminals with firearms.

There are many dangerous professions. There are few where you knowingly enter into a situation where you might die on a daily basis for simply doing your job correctly. Trying to deemphasize the threat a police officer is under is undercutting the reason for this situation. The question is why police officers shoot people they don't need to, not why do they shoot at all.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#94 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:33 AM

I'm sure an argument could be thrown together that the reason not more officers get shot is precisely because they shoot first. The stats aren't a great reference for either side in this argument, in that sense.
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#95 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:52 AM

View PostSilencer, on 27 November 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

I'm sure an argument could be thrown together that the reason not more officers get shot is precisely because they shoot first. The stats aren't a great reference for either side in this argument, in that sense.


Which is why I went to the "mindset"/"perception" level rather than bank on any statistics. This is a multifaceted problem, and it requires multiple solutions. The police sub-culture, "the Blue Line" is also a part because a police officer isn't going to, generally, throw another under the bus, which is why there is an entire division in departments for internal affairs.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#96 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 04:35 AM

Quote

There are many dangerous professions. There are few where you knowingly enter into a situation where you might die on a daily basis for simply doing your job correctly. Trying to deemphasize the threat a police officer is under is undercutting the reason for this situation. The question is why police officers shoot people they don't need to, not why do they shoot at all.


I know we all like books, but the following illustrates non-hollywood real violence.

A mod can take this down as its merely to illustrate a point, don't jump all over me.

I feel if your going to have a honest discussion we need to watch the other type of video..too.

Dieing is one thing, we can all accept this as nobody make it out alive. Dieing Horribly...different matter.

I know for a fact cops watch this video at training. And delve and think about it.

You know they have this running through there head, not only could they not return home, but they may be murdered painfully.
This guy picked the cop apart..limb to limb then body shots..then.

Honest to god..seen alot in my life and this video bothers me more than u imagine. NSFW.

Still bothers me. Especially if you read the perps history, pysch profiles, and lack of remorse in prison.


I bring this up as I am not anti-cop, but there is psychology behind responding to case after case. Alone.
Then they show you stuff like this. You want to get home to family.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 November 2014 - 04:37 AM

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#97 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 04:50 AM

Sidetrack...I couldn't find the old Psychology records. They used to be online.

http://sblog.s3.amaz...-7-v3-FINAL.pdf

This kind of explains it though. He used to set up high kill conditions in Vietnam.

I bring this up cause lately the glorification of war <videogames/movies>..really bothers me. Guess i'm getting old.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 November 2014 - 04:51 AM

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#98 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 04:57 AM

View PostTerez, on 26 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The legal proliferation of guns in the U.S. make any comparison to most other Western nations' policing problematic. Cops are trained to protect themselves first because they die a lot.

This is true, but Darren Wilson knew Mike Brown didn't have a gun.

As for Tamir Rice, what you said. For those who didn't catch it earlier in the thread, this is the second incident recently where Ohio cops shot a person holding a BB gun. The other was an adult black male in a Walmart who was holding a product he got off the Walmart shelf. The surveillance video for the Walmart case also didn't look good for the cops, but they weren't charged. And what kind of dangerous people with guns dick around without shooting anyone until the cops get there, anyway? In neither case was the person with the (fake) gun even threatening anyone.


Back on track:


This is what bothers me, why the use of lethal force on someone who doesn't. Non-lethal has many different options. We need one of those guns from firefly for reals. Even as a gun nut I think it's a last resort.

Another point..why do people riot in the same area they live. If I was going to engage in this aspect I would pick a point away from where I live. Then maybe they would have released the national guard...that says something.
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#99 User is offline   melonhead 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 05:50 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 27 November 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

View PostTerez, on 26 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 26 November 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

The legal proliferation of guns in the U.S. make any comparison to most other Western nations' policing problematic. Cops are trained to protect themselves first because they die a lot.

This is true, but Darren Wilson knew Mike Brown didn't have a gun.

As for Tamir Rice, what you said. For those who didn't catch it earlier in the thread, this is the second incident recently where Ohio cops shot a person holding a BB gun. The other was an adult black male in a Walmart who was holding a product he got off the Walmart shelf. The surveillance video for the Walmart case also didn't look good for the cops, but they weren't charged. And what kind of dangerous people with guns dick around without shooting anyone until the cops get there, anyway? In neither case was the person with the (fake) gun even threatening anyone.


Back on track:


This is what bothers me, why the use of lethal force on someone who doesn't. Non-lethal has many different options. We need one of those guns from firefly for reals. Even as a gun nut I think it's a last resort.

Another point..why do people riot in the same area they live. If I was going to engage in this aspect I would pick a point away from where I live. Then maybe they would have released the national guard...that says something.


In my opinion, lethal force is used more because of the wide availability of deadly weapons in America. Since pretty much anyone could get there hands on a gun, I would think it would cause the police to react with more violence.

In regards to the rioting, maybe its not a planned thing? It just happens and its uncontrollable. Mob mentality, or something
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#100 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 05:58 AM

View PostNicodimas, on 27 November 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Another point..why do people riot in the same area they live. If I was going to engage in this aspect I would pick a point away from where I live. Then maybe they would have released the national guard...that says something.

I'm reading reports that about half of the people arrested for rioting/looting in Ferguson have been from outside Ferguson. They are purposely coming in to start trouble. There's also reports of protesters having to drive away men (both black and white) who are throwing stuff at the cops or agitating in a way that's clearly headed towards violence.

Ta-Nehisi Coates and a few others are talking on Twitter about the riots/protests from the '60s and they note that the best protests featured a self-policing of the protest that was uncannily good at keeping the peace. They were practiced, knew what to look for and succeeded at keeping things from tipping over into violence. I know Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam was particularly good at this. However, even Martin Luther King spoke about how rioting is understandable or even useful for social progress (which it can be). He didn't want to have riots, but he understood why they happened.
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