[Malankazooie]

With social media capturing it all, be careful what you click. I just watched a short video of a twitter post of looters murdering a man In Dallas.

[Cause]

That was excessive but honestly I dislike the attitude of so many people taking these videos. This one is minor but I have seen many when people are trying to bait the cops into an over reaction.

Still if 5 police officers give you an order to go inside, you go inside. You don’t hope that the specifics of your porch versus the street will protect you. Again I know every state isn’t he is is different but in South Africa I believe any lawful order by a cop must be obeyed. In this case I’m sure the order to go inside would count.

Edit - I wanted to add and Im sure I have expressed this opinion on the forum before. When a cop takes actions in good faith even when they lead to bad outcomes they should be given the benefit of the doubt. They have a dangerous job to do, a high stress job and snap judgments can lead to mistakes. However when they act in bad faith, or through negligence a cop should also be held to a higher standard. If a civilian guilty of culpable homicide or third degree murder etc can be given a lenient sentence I would think for a cop on duty the sentence should always be the max. They are trained, given power and responsibility and in exchange they swear an oath to uphold the law. A cop that breaks the law always commits two crimes. I would love to hear Tiste or any other cops we might have on the forum give their thoughts on this.

These videos trouble me greatly. These cops are in a high stress situation, I think many are improperly trained, and just like the protesters I think hundreds of cops in riot gear are prone to their own kind of mob mentality. Still by virtue of their position we can and should expect better from them.

Again though If a cop gives you an order to go inside and he and his fellows are dressed in riot gear why the fuck would you not go inside? Why are people posting vidoes of themsevles recording police parking lots and giving cops third degree questioning about if they are corrupt etc not expecting a bad outcome. If I was a cop and i saw someone surveiling the precint I would consider them hostile too.

Double edit - Just watched the pepper spray video, yes his hands are up but the cop is clearly trying to force the crowd back so the car can get through. Holding your hands up but refusing to move out the way is non-complaince. Again id love to hear from tiste or someone in the know but I think in that situation the cop has to escalate and force the crowd back. If they lose control and the crowd rushes them the cops are screwed. Their is no good way to handle these things. I saw a video of a NYPD suv drive througha crowd yesterday, that was a wtf moment for me. I cant beleive I saw a cop do that but no idea what else they could have done.

I forget who said it on this forum but I think its something vital that sometimes gets lost. Its not an easy thing to say or expect from a police officer but their duty is to uphold the law at any cost, not to stay alive at any cost. Again in a snap judgment made in good faith a cop might shoot a suspect who he believes is armed but in actuality is not, but as we have often seen in the past and discussed on this forum to often cops go in too heavy handed against black people just assuming they are more dangerous and in an effort to be overly cautious.

This post has been edited by Cause: 31 May 2020 - 10:19 PM

[EmperorMagus]

I'm sorry Cause but I don't think you're getting the entire point of these protests.

The point is that the cops are using their power granted to them by the law to systematically oppress certain groups of people. When people protest, the cops fail to do their legal duty to facilitate that protest and instead react with a level of violence only matched by that of the most heinous dictatorships in the world. In fact, even in Iran, when the police and military were brutally repressing protesters a few months ago, no one started shooting at people's homes.

Your response to this situation is that, "yeah, I know the cops have their knee on your brother's neck, but if one of 'em tells you to bend over you should bend over because they are the cops."

If you bend over at what point does anything change? for one and a half century blacks in America have been trying to reach something resembling equality with everyone else. Everything they have done during Jim Crow, the 20s, and the Civil Rights Movement has only done so much. They are still disadvantaged in almost every sense that it is possible to be disadvantaged in. At some point, you have to admit that this system is not just.

So the choice here is between protecting tyranny or admitting that it should be done away with. I don't have any trouble saying the people patrolling black neighborhood in riot gear and tanks are the bad guys and I have absolutely no sympathy for them. "I was only following orders" & "peace and security" justify very little.

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 01 June 2020 - 04:23 AM

[Cause]

I want to be very clear, shooting rubber bullets at someone standing in their porch is an extreme over reaction of massive proportions. Defies logic and reason. That said what was that person hoping to gain by ignoring the order. She wasn’t protesting anything in a meaningful way. The order was repeated, repeated again, the tone of voice was clear and then they say light em up or something. Ignoring that was stupid. Also I’m gonna guess that the national guard are not properly trained for police actions? Activating them for riot suppression seems like a mistake to me. There are peaceful protests and I hear what your saying sometimes you can’t back down but with people burning cars looting shops and throwing Molotov cocktails at police the police have to take action to enforce order.

A peaceful protest in my opinion is not one that blocks a police a vehicle, even if the protest is against the police. March, occupy a park, surround city hall but you also have to allow some access for the police and government to still do their work.

Are there any serious leaders of these protests, can this lead to any serious discussion?

[Aptorian]

What was that person hoping? Nothing. They were standing on their porch. In their home. On their land. They shouldn't have to hope for anything when they were minding their own business.

Should have returned fire with what ever assault rifle they bought at Walmart.

[HoosierDaddy]

Aptorian, on 01 June 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

What was that person hoping? Nothing. They were standing on their porch. In their home. On their land. They shouldn't have to hope for anything when they were minding their own business.

Should have returned fire with what ever assault rifle they bought at Walmart.

My assumption is the latter statement is made in jest. If not... well, our police forces HAVE military capable equipment. I'd highly recommend NOT tossing dynamite into an already lit fire. You want civilian casualties? Open fire on the police. And then lose any and all credibility of this being a political/justice based "movement" and just full on assault of the system. It is in no ones interest to back any parties into a corner here. I think in some situations "protesters" (I use that term dubiously in this regard) are doing just that with some police at a minor level. It does not call for escalated violence because they are supposed to be professionals. They aren't professionals at all in most circumstances, but they are given the label and then hold it up as a standard because it makes them feel more important for a lot of them. I am well aware of the mindset of lots of these officers and where they are coming from.

I get what Cause is saying. I disagree somewhat, but agree that you have to be aware enough of what is going on to NOT invite that sort of trouble into your life. Should the cops respond that way? Of course not. Should people be destroying businesses in a "protest?" Of course not. This shit is going to happen and everyone needs to be well aware of what is too damned risky right now. I'd say hanging out on your own porch isn't pushing any boundaries. I haven't seen footage and wasn't there to see if there was anything else going on to somewhat mitigate that reaction, but it is still an overreaction by the police.

But, at some point the city governments must get a measure of control so that life (as fucked up as it is for everyone right now) can get somewhat normalized while the protests continue (peacefully). They are just really bad at going about it and now frustration is setting in at every level and angle and the shitstorm just keeps stirring itself up to higher levels.

Curfews need to be strictly enforced with arrests (non-brutal at that) and protesters need to stay organized and continue to decry the people who are just agents of chaos.

[QuickTidal]

Here's a video of a young black man being arrested in SC for merely talking peacefully during a protest.



This is what they fucking DO. Can't have someone seemingly like a leader keeping the peace and calm of a protest....the cops WANT the escalation. They want people to get rowdy in their faces so they can get violent and disperse the. This. Is. A. Tactic.

The fascism marching on US soil now is so blatant, the systemic racism so ingrained into society, emboldened I assume by President Orange Twatburger...the only difference between now and 30 years ago during the LA Riots is it's being recorded now everywhere.

Notice that in a tonne of videos of police, they are taking out even PRESS with cameras, never mind regular people, they are pulling their badges off, they are turning their body cams off...because they aren't prepared for all the cameras an filming that is happening showing their disgusting, and evil shit.

[Terez]

Greg Doucette of Threadnought fame is cataloguing incidents of police violence and escalation across the US in a thread on Twitter. First tweet here, but he's already up to 94 recorded incidents:

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on 01 June 2020 - 06:17 AM, said:

Aptorian, on 01 June 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

What was that person hoping? Nothing. They were standing on their porch. In their home. On their land. They shouldn't have to hope for anything when they were minding their own business.

Should have returned fire with what ever assault rifle they bought at Walmart.

My assumption is the latter statement is made in jest. If not... well, our police forces HAVE military capable equipment. I'd highly recommend NOT tossing dynamite into an already lit fire. You want civilian casualties? Open fire on the police. And then lose any and all credibility of this being a political/justice based "movement" and just full on assault of the system. It is in no ones interest to back any parties into a corner here. I think in some situations "protesters" (I use that term dubiously in this regard) are doing just that with some police at a minor level. It does not call for escalated violence because they are supposed to be professionals. They aren't professionals at all in most circumstances, but they are given the label and then hold it up as a standard because it makes them feel more important for a lot of them. I am well aware of the mindset of lots of these officers and where they are coming from.

Isn't that^^ more or less exactly what the 2nd amendment is all about, though?

[Terez]

Yes, one of the great ironies of gun worship generally and the armed militia movement in particular is that these are the same people who enthusiastically support the police state. At its root, it's all about white supremacy.

[QuickTidal]

This is America. The Supercut.

[Macros]

Shit man. I couldn't watch all of that.

Why people still want to live in the US and A constantly baffles me

[HoosierDaddy]

D, on 01 June 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 01 June 2020 - 06:17 AM, said:

Aptorian, on 01 June 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

What was that person hoping? Nothing. They were standing on their porch. In their home. On their land. They shouldn't have to hope for anything when they were minding their own business.

Should have returned fire with what ever assault rifle they bought at Walmart.

My assumption is the latter statement is made in jest. If not... well, our police forces HAVE military capable equipment. I'd highly recommend NOT tossing dynamite into an already lit fire. You want civilian casualties? Open fire on the police. And then lose any and all credibility of this being a political/justice based "movement" and just full on assault of the system. It is in no ones interest to back any parties into a corner here. I think in some situations "protesters" (I use that term dubiously in this regard) are doing just that with some police at a minor level. It does not call for escalated violence because they are supposed to be professionals. They aren't professionals at all in most circumstances, but they are given the label and then hold it up as a standard because it makes them feel more important for a lot of them. I am well aware of the mindset of lots of these officers and where they are coming from.

Isn't that^^ more or less exactly what the 2nd amendment is all about, though?

The second amendment states:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

1. This is not a militia. I won't condescend to define it.
2. It is most definitely not regulated. That is prima facie.
3. The right to bear arms has already been infringed (the issue here is the level of infringement is not equal, which is an issue being discussed in this thread).

This is not the thread to delve into the interpretation of the second amendment (which is a pet topic), but it has no real place in this discussion.

I somewhat agree with Terez. For lots of gun folks, it isn't about "being ready to overthrow the government." It is about keeping what is mine and taking what is yours. Not political. Then there are the "private militias" who are just more over the top, organized, and more heavily armed, but still ALL about keeping what is theirs, usually from the people who are protesting right now who want what they should already have (justice and peace and equal protection under the laws which is ALL political). But the former view this as a zero-sum game: If you win I have to lose. Therefore you can't win and I need to stop it, whereas in actuality a rising tide lifts all boats here.

Sadly, in this situation the protesters are being held to a higher standard by the public. Inertia itself is on the other side, and breaking tendencies always bothers a lot of people. If you are going to do that you need to be at your best. The other side here, and I have no doubt there is another side, will do everything they can to highlight the negative, to diminish the positive, and most people who want to simply go about their every day life and are paying any attention to that will see the bad and concentrate on that. Lots and lots of cops die here everyday doing normal shit like a traffic stop. It is easy to forget that at times like these if you are losing perspective. There are in reality lots of scared cops involved here. See my comment above about "professional law enforcement officers" not being in reality professional. Anger and fear are not a good combination. Combustible, I'd say.

Those are the sad realities of this. The situation thus becomes that of an entirely unmanageable, undisciplined, and utter unleashing of frustrations, anger, and pessimism. The notion of justice and injustice and what is right and wrong go away to be replaced by that unleashing. Unless it is always in the forefront of minds that any attempt to escalate beyond marches, chants, and peaceful demonstrations will be met with a solid wall of disapproval which can do nothing but affect the overall success of bringing about change.

It is difficult. Ideas are being floated that I've heard and can utterly get down with (in order of likelihood):

1. Independent prosecutors for police forces (standard conflict of interests underlying this principle makes sense) is one that could be feasibly implemented fairly quickly with some organization at the state level.
2. National data-base of police officers and their records. Standard, regular reviews of police officers records with open information to the public. You want the power you have got to be able to handle the scrutiny that comes with it. Makes sense.
3. Demilitarization of police forces. Some of that weaponry (like the mini-tanks) can go. Unfortunately the above spoke of second amendment makes this one the most tricky. Lots and lots of cops die here everyday doing normal shit like a traffic stop. It is easy to forget that at times like these.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 01 June 2020 - 04:40 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Macros, on 01 June 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

Shit man. I couldn't watch all of that.

Why people still want to live in the US and A constantly baffles me

1. Most people have no choice. Just like in most of the rest of the world.
2. Ignorance.
3. Most of the people I love live here. I want to help make it better and I can't do that from the outside.

[Malankazooie]

There needs to be a comprehenstive review of police training. When you fall off a police truck and your first inclination when you get up is to pepper spray . . . nothing. That is some muscle memory in action right there. I'm guessing they go through the motions so much that it has become an autonomic response.

[King Lear]

I mean, initial police training 13 weeks to 6 months depending where you are in the US. I can't think of a single person I know who I'd have trusted with pepper spray and rubber bullets at 18 or 19 with that little training, never mind a gun and qualified immunity.

On a more general note, I think if onlookers want to grant grace to police for the stressful situation they're under during the protests, then that also needs to extend to the protesters as well, who not only do not have any kind of training at all as a group (inadequate though it may be) but are also directly protesting violence by the same group of people who have authority over them during the protests - not exactly a neutral third party here.

If we should be understanding of police making mistakes due to the stress of the situation, then that conversation should also include how protesters will make mistakes and should also be excused. If police can pepper spray a small child in the face, and aim for and shoot tear gas and rubber bullets directly at the press and we're supposed to be sympathetic, then perhaps people in general should also be more understanding of broken windows and looting.

Protesters not the ones with legally mandated pepper spray, riot batons, tasers, stun grenades, rubber bullets, the power of arrest and detention, and that's just the "non-lethal" version of the weapons that they have which can and do kill and maim people, never mind the calls to bring in the military and set dogs on people and shoot them, because what America really needs right now is another Kent State 50 years later. These are also some of the same people who are disproportionately impacted by the Covid-19 epidemic, as well as the massive unemployment that resulted and there has been next to nothing from the government to give them any kind of of relief. If the police are stressed, then maybe it should be considered how stressed the protesters must be to come out in big groups during an epidemic which has impacted so many people's ability to pay for basic necessities like food and rent when they know police will dump chemical weapons banned by the Geneva convention for use in international warfare which fuck with your lungs.


Couple of weeks ago, there were smaller scale protests against having to wear masks and not getting haircuts where people were fully armed and pushing and screaming in the faces of the police with their small kids in tow. There was little in the way of police retaliation. Must have been pretty stressful for them though, all those armed angry people with big old guns.

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on 01 June 2020 - 04:38 PM, said:

D, on 01 June 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 01 June 2020 - 06:17 AM, said:

Aptorian, on 01 June 2020 - 05:37 AM, said:

What was that person hoping? Nothing. They were standing on their porch. In their home. On their land. They shouldn't have to hope for anything when they were minding their own business.

Should have returned fire with what ever assault rifle they bought at Walmart.

My assumption is the latter statement is made in jest. If not... well, our police forces HAVE military capable equipment. I'd highly recommend NOT tossing dynamite into an already lit fire. You want civilian casualties? Open fire on the police. And then lose any and all credibility of this being a political/justice based "movement" and just full on assault of the system. It is in no ones interest to back any parties into a corner here. I think in some situations "protesters" (I use that term dubiously in this regard) are doing just that with some police at a minor level. It does not call for escalated violence because they are supposed to be professionals. They aren't professionals at all in most circumstances, but they are given the label and then hold it up as a standard because it makes them feel more important for a lot of them. I am well aware of the mindset of lots of these officers and where they are coming from.

Isn't that^^ more or less exactly what the 2nd amendment is all about, though?

The second amendment states:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

1. This is not a militia. I won't condescend to define it.
2. It is most definitely not regulated. That is prima facie.
3. The right to bear arms has already been infringed (the issue here is the level of infringement is not equal, which is an issue being discussed in this thread).

This is not the thread to delve into the interpretation of the second amendment (which is a pet topic), but it has no real place in this discussion.

I somewhat agree with Terez. For lots of gun folks, it isn't about "being ready to overthrow the government." It is about keeping what is mine and taking what is yours. Not political. Then there are the "private militias" who are just more over the top, organized, and more heavily armed, but still ALL about keeping what is theirs, usually from the people who are protesting right now who want what they should already have (justice and peace and equal protection under the laws which is ALL political). But the former view this as a zero-sum game: If you win I have to lose. Therefore you can't win and I need to stop it, whereas in actuality a rising tide lifts all boats here.

Sadly, in this situation the protesters are being held to a higher standard by the public. Inertia itself is on the other side, and breaking tendencies always bothers a lot of people. If you are going to do that you need to be at your best. The other side here, and I have no doubt there is another side, will do everything they can to highlight the negative, to diminish the positive, and most people who want to simply go about their every day life and are paying any attention to that will see the bad and concentrate on that. Lots and lots of cops die here everyday doing normal shit like a traffic stop. It is easy to forget that at times like these if you are losing perspective. There are in reality lots of scared cops involved here. See my comment above about "professional law enforcement officers" not being in reality professional. Anger and fear are not a good combination. Combustible, I'd say.

Those are the sad realities of this. The situation thus becomes that of an entirely unmanageable, undisciplined, and utter unleashing of frustrations, anger, and pessimism. The notion of justice and injustice and what is right and wrong go away to be replaced by that unleashing. Unless it is always in the forefront of minds that any attempt to escalate beyond marches, chants, and peaceful demonstrations will be met with a solid wall of disapproval which can do nothing but affect the overall success of bringing about change.

It is difficult. Ideas are being floated that I've heard and can utterly get down with (in order of likelihood):

1. Independent prosecutors for police forces (standard conflict of interests underlying this principle makes sense) is one that could be feasibly implemented fairly quickly with some organization at the state level.
2. National data-base of police officers and their records. Standard, regular reviews of police officers records with open information to the public. You want the power you have got to be able to handle the scrutiny that comes with it. Makes sense.
3. Demilitarization of police forces. Some of that weaponry (like the mini-tanks) can go. Unfortunately the above spoke of second amendment makes this one the most tricky. Lots and lots of cops die here everyday doing normal shit like a traffic stop. It is easy to forget that at times like these.

Yeah, but nobody sitting on their porch getting shot at has the time to process all that nuance. In the moment, it sure feels like Noah Webster's "The supreme power in America [enforcing] unjust laws by the sword". If a person being shot at on their own front porch is supposed to think "gee, we should really build a national database of police officer records and pass reform to start the long process of demilitarizing our police forces" then why can you even buy guns from Wal-Mart, again?

[amphibian]

The people getting shot at on while being on their porch are generally not the same white assholes driving 80k trucks to shitty gun rights protests to show off their $1500 guns and however many hundreds or thousands of dollars in tacticool gear.

They are usually entirely different population groups and skin color is only one component of the difference. There's a class/economic standing component too.

Most of the tacticool crowd don't live within the high density areas of big cities. They have enough $ to move to the white suburbs and commute to the city as needed. The post by King Lear also ties into this in that their $ and suburban living also means they're not as impacted by COVID-19 directly or indirectly as the black residents of big cities are.

There's a lot going on here that has to be known before the (useful and sensible) proposal of the demolishing the military police model and building a national database of police personnel records and police work.

[HoosierDaddy]

Some of what I'm saying is that, while I don't understand it, I recognize that lots of people view the bad actors on the "protest" side the same way many people conflate the bad actors on the police side. These are the minority on both sides.

So when KL says the protestors should be given the same "leeway", or maybe more aptly, the benefit of the doubt officers are given, I disagree only in the sense that NONE should be given the benefit of the doubt. That is the only realistic way to handle it. Otherwise biases kick in.

Hard and fast curfews at an appropriate hour and strict police scrutiny. Which brings in the inherent power imbalance causing this all to begin with. It is a clusterfuck that cannot be dealt with quickly, but in order to begin it there must be something resembling peace otherwise the cycle will perpetuate itself til there are lots of deaths.

And sadly the only way to get that calm is to get the rioters off the street. How do you do that without cutting off their hiding grounds in the peaceful protests? Practical and reasonable solutions short term are needed.

I think I am frustrated by flame fanning all over the place.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 01 June 2020 - 09:33 PM

[amphibian]

The way to get that calm isn't to get the rioters off the streets. It's to deliver justice by arresting all four cops involved in the death of George Floyd, it's to deliver policing that is done without rampant bias based on skin color, it's to realize that police budgets have spiraled out of control (especially when looking at results - something like less than 20% of crimes in the USA that aren't murder or fighting related result in a conviction and murder cases usually hover in the mid 40% and spiking up to the high 50s in places where good murder solving police live), and it's to not fuck people up all the time.

Changes in budget, in what we demand of police, and the arrests of those four (really should be arresting those who killed Breonna Taylor too) is a huge start towards addressing this mess.

The rioters are hurting and killing orders of magnitude less people than the police are. At this point, it's safer to be in a riot with no police.