[worry]

Yah the Kelly Thomas case actually got a lot of coverage here in So. Cal, and the news was fairly sympathetic to him and his father. I don't want to be cynical but I'll give you three guesses as to why the media was actually sympathetic to the family's side on this one. That doesn't take away from the injustice aspect of it, to be clear.

[Terez]

http://america.aljaz...ontothecar.html

[amphibian]

http://www.rawstory....-2nd-amendment/

Right after the Aurora shootings, a white kid walked around with a shotgun, refused to cooperate with police and got away with a ticket for refusing to show ID.

Alberquerque police department is irrationally violent, perhaps murderously so and has paid $23 million in settlements in the recent past: http://www.alternet....page=1#bookmark

Yeah, there is a huge problem in policing nationwide and it's gotta be tackled piece by piece.

[Silencer]

I'm actually starting to wonder if the entirety of US Police Departments need to be abolished and restarted from scratch, with a "no previous employees allowed" policy... :S

[Terez]

There are a lot of good people doing this job, people who were truly made for it. We just don't hear about them. I don't even know if there is true solidarity in the St. Louis County department; there might be dissenters we don't hear about even there. What we need is a major change in perspective. It's difficult to make that kind of change come about with policy alone. Policy can play a role, but sober discussion is what brings about major perspective changes. Policy gets lost in us vs them and power politics.

[worry]

Couple lawyers were on Chris Hayes and described why grand juries in police abuse cases are unique from grand juries in just about every other case: the prosecutor relies on police cooperation/testimony in so many cases that prosecutors have an incentive to protect them -- or at least not anger them -- as a class. For instance in both Garner and Brown's cases, the cops involved were allowed to testify, which I've seen several times is actually quite rare for GJs. There's an inherent conflict of interest, and it's at least a contributing factor in why indictments of police are so far less common than indictments in other grand jury situations. Add the fact these prosecutors are elected officials and the way prosecutors can use grand juries to pawn off responsibility for non-indictments, and you get a inroad to corruption. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not commenting on how widespread this problem is but the Garner case was caught on video from pretty much start to finish and still had the result of Brown's grand jury. I don't see how that could possibly happen with a prosecutor who was genuinely aiming to prosecute.

Then again, the Aiyana Jones case did go to trial and the charges were still dropped, so it might just be a poison in the society itself (obviously I personally believe that already, but I say "might" just on the 0.0000000~1% chance I'm wrong).

Conclusion: Silencer is right, but even that wouldn't be enough.

[Terez]

worry, on 04 December 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Couple lawyers were on Chris Hayes...

The pinstripe white defense lawyer and the black former prosecutor? I love those guys. They are on various MSNBC shows, almost always together, and despite being natural enemies they seem to like each other.

worry, on 04 December 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Conclusion: Silencer is right, but even that wouldn't be enough.

Not enough, and too much. The idea is a grave oversimplification of the problem IMO.

[worry]

Yah that part was half-joking. It was kinda a "tl;dr" for what I wrote above it.

[worry]

Worth noting however that big cities spend millions per year on police misconduct settlements/fines/judgments. For instance Chicago has paid out over $500 million (yes, half a billion) in the past 10 years. A lot of cities have staggering figures, if not quite that big. I think we (on the board) all agree with the "not all cops" argument more or less, but I think we (society at large, this time) need to admit that not only are a few bad apples still too many, there may be substantially more than a few. This is conjecture on my part, but I suspect that a lot of people who should and could be cops are increasingly not becoming cops because of the people who really really want to be cops and shouldn't be (but are). For instance it's been revealed that the cop who shot Tamir Rice was let go from another police force specifically for being terrible with guns ("dismal)" and yet was still welcomed onto the Cleveland force: http://www.usatoday....neral/19843331/
"He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections," according to a letter from Polak. "I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies."

I dunno, I'm just saying that's an issue, not the issue, along with the issues we already talk about like the blue code of silence, etc.

[Terez]

I won't deny that there are a lot of bad apples, or even that there is a culture problem in police forces across the US. But firing all the cops and getting new ones isn't going to even begin to address that problem because the same type of person will be attracted to the job. The only thing it would accomplish is getting rid of the most qualified assholes to make way for seriously incompetent assholes.

[amphibian]

There's an issue with training, which I mentioned above. We trust police officers with such a wide range of tasks that all require specialists to do well.

By the nature of the job, police are often the second to the scene and are expected to deal with whatever it could be.

That generalism requires serious training - which we don't supply to them - to navigate well. Add in an often racist or uncaring legal system, awful prison system, poor psychiatric problem prevention in both the general population and the police and an institutional attitude of violence being resorted to quickly and without skill/care. We now have a recipe for sporadic disasters on top of many, many small wrongs and a lesser amount of "hey that was pretty good".

I'm frankly amazed people are confident enough to let others be police after three months of basic training. The military puts the very best soldiers as trainers to guide the new ones in and then slowly works the newbies into experienced groups. And they still fuck it up all the time.

Honestly, the state trooper model should be followed and expanded upon. But that's expensive and tough to sell to a mayor or city council - even if the durn settlement fees are 2x or 3x the cost.

[Illuyankas]

Even the good cops protect and shelter the bad ones, whether out of career fear or out of misplaced comradery, which is completely part of the otherisation cops give themselves, the whole 'us versus civilians' as if they were military types and not civvies themselves. People misuse the phrase 'a few bad apples' without the 'spoil the whole rotten bunch' all the time.

[Terez]

Illuyankas, on 04 December 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Even the good cops protect and shelter the bad ones, whether out of career fear or out of misplaced comradery...

This is true to a large extent, but not axiomatic. There is a shake-up going on in one of my local sheriff's departments, not my county but a county in my region. It came about because the good cops spoke up, and it ended with the sheriff being charged and eventually sentenced to house arrest (which nearly everyone agrees was a joke of a sentence which only came about because the judge is a good old boy). In other words, good cops do speak up sometimes, for all the good it does them. The outgoing interim sheriff said "Your agency will never be allowed to heal until this cancer is cut out and removed," speaking of several bad apples still in the department. Nothing to do with race issues, but there are a lot of issues, and good cops don't always cover for bad cops.

[Tsundoku]

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

http://www.governing...s-by-state.html

http://rt.com/usa/20...gangs-homicide/

Holy shit your guys are trigger-happy! Depressing reading.

I don't know if it's come up previously, but in skimming a few articles I noted that police shootings are an "optional" part of self-reporting to higher authorities. WTF???

As an aside to the Utah ref:

http://www.news.com....r-1227143073673 (down the bottom of the article)

The more I read about the USA situation the more depressed I get. You guys are a seriously fucked up fractured-and-barely-holding-together-with-chewing-gum-and-sticky-tape society.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 04 December 2014 - 09:51 AM

[worry]

We like to do the whole 2-steps-forward, 1.9-steps-back method for progress.

[Tsundoku]

worry, on 04 December 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

We like to do the whole 2-steps-forward, 1.9-steps-back method for progress.

It's known around these parts as the Bipolar Shuffle.

[Terez]

Sombra, on 04 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

The more I read about the USA situation the more depressed I get. You guys are a seriously fucked up fractured-and-barely-holding-together-with-chewing-gum-and-sticky-tape society.

Every time I read a comment like this from a non-American I am reminded of carnivores with the scent of blood. Not to imply anything or neo-Godwin the thread, but I see that kind of comment on Al Jazeera more than anywhere else. We get it; the rest of the world can't wait for the empire to fall. Many of us can't wait either, but as a country I think we are probably more resilient than we get credit for. Don't be so anxious to count us out.

In my opinion, we're reaching a sort of tipping point in the information age where millions of very ignorant people will have more difficulty staying that way. This is my opinion because I was one of those people. Not to imply that I don't still have more ignorances than I know what to do with, but there was a post in this thread not too long ago, now deleted, which rather demonstrated the point. It will take a little time, but it will happen.

[Gothos]

Terez, on 04 December 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Sombra, on 04 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

The more I read about the USA situation the more depressed I get. You guys are a seriously fucked up fractured-and-barely-holding-together-with-chewing-gum-and-sticky-tape society.

Every time I read a comment like this from a non-American I am reminded of carnivores with the scent of blood. Not to imply anything or neo-Godwin the thread, but I see that kind of comment on Al Jazeera more than anywhere else. We get it; the rest of the world can't wait for the empire to fall. Many of us can't wait either, but as a country I think we are probably more resilient than we get credit for. Don't be so anxious to count us out.

In my opinion, we're reaching a sort of tipping point in the information age where millions of very ignorant people will have more difficulty staying that way. This is my opinion because I was one of those people. Not to imply that I don't still have more ignorances than I know what to do with, but there was a post in this thread not too long ago, now deleted, which rather demonstrated the point. It will take a little time, but it will happen.

I'll say I'd rather the empire didn't fall. I'd rather power would shift back to the lower echelons of society, not the famed 1% that currently holds it by the curlies. And I'd rather you don't implode because then that bunch of psychos east of here will have a brand new playground.

[Terez]

I don't believe we are going to implode, but I think we are in for a rough spot. It will get a little bit worse before it gets better; that is always the case because our arc of justice is more like a zigzag.

[Cause]

Gothos, on 04 December 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Terez, on 04 December 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Sombra, on 04 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

The more I read about the USA situation the more depressed I get. You guys are a seriously fucked up fractured-and-barely-holding-together-with-chewing-gum-and-sticky-tape society.

Every time I read a comment like this from a non-American I am reminded of carnivores with the scent of blood. Not to imply anything or neo-Godwin the thread, but I see that kind of comment on Al Jazeera more than anywhere else. We get it; the rest of the world can't wait for the empire to fall. Many of us can't wait either, but as a country I think we are probably more resilient than we get credit for. Don't be so anxious to count us out.

In my opinion, we're reaching a sort of tipping point in the information age where millions of very ignorant people will have more difficulty staying that way. This is my opinion because I was one of those people. Not to imply that I don't still have more ignorances than I know what to do with, but there was a post in this thread not too long ago, now deleted, which rather demonstrated the point. It will take a little time, but it will happen.

I'll say I'd rather the empire didn't fall. I'd rather power would shift back to the lower echelons of society, not the famed 1% that currently holds it by the curlies. And I'd rather you don't implode because then that bunch of psychos east of here will have a brand new playground.

Russia, the middle east? So many possible psychos