[Tsundoku]

Obdigore, on 07 October 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 07 October 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

I don't hate the "Grimdark" phrase, but rather the connotation. However, if everyone agrees that it pertains to awesome fantasy of a sort, I can get behind it.I rather didn't like the "fantasy for people who don't like REAL fantasy and only want to see negative shit" connotation it had for a while. I might be behind the times, here.

I don't mind the connotation, if you are using the original connotation of Humans, and humanity, being on the verge of extinction with callous and cruel things done to/by humans in the name of good, evil, and other names that we can't pronounce.WH40k is essentially about the disgusting things humans have to do to survive as a race, and the end of the human race as we know it. That is grimdark. Abercrombie isn't grimdark. Lawrence isn't really grimdark, imo. I mean, how does the WH40k intro go again, where this was pulled from? Something like:In the Grim, Dark future of humanity, there is only war.The age of science has fallen, never to rise again,Something something dark gods,something something undead emperor is the only hope of survival,something something this is the end of humanity, and the remnants are only holding off the extinction a tiny bit longer.(I paraphrased a bit)Post Apocalyptic Fantasy would be the best place to put Lawrence, you could toss 'A Land Fit For Heroes' by Morgan and a couple others in there as well. Abercrombies' 'a king and a half' would fit (even if it is 'teen'), although the rest of his stuff wouldn't. Bakker should go back to pontificating about the meaning of his sex masters with a therapist, and there honestly isn't a lot of other stuff I've read (at least that is good enough to remember) that would fit into such a sub-category (either GrimDark or PAF(yes that is Post Apocalyptic Fantasy)).

"Something something something something Dark Side" ... ?

Morgoth, on 08 October 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 07 October 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 07 October 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

If I'm thinking of the same person, she's OTT and rather irritating, but Bakker didn't exactly cover himself in glory there (or in other instances of online discussion).

He didn't. In fact he gave in to the trollery too hard and it showed.But yes, this person has made a lot of people's lives very uncomfortable online including one bigger author who got very depressed after being attacked by her. I have a few odd guesses at who it might be, one of which would not surprise me in the least.I just think it's interesting that it's apparently someone we likely all know of as a newish genre author, whose double life online has been to behave like an awful, awful human being to others.

This whole thing must have passed me be entirely. What happened?

Ditto. I'm sure there's a name for this incident and a relevant wiki page, but can someone please point me in the right direction?

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Bakker is too smart for his own good. Steve told me that he's the most intelligent man he's ever met and let's be honest, Steve's met some pretty intelligent people. I really feel for Bakker tbh, he's just expressing his vision and he does some things brilliantly but the misogyny was just too much for me, I bowed out of that series but I wait for the day that he could just settle down a little and put away his hatred for women.

[Studlock]

I don't know if intelligence is part of it, Bakker could be the Sir Issac Newton of cognitive science or philosophy and it'd still be patently absurd to say the Prince of Nothing books are feminism fiction. Not that I agree with the Requires Hate blogger but some of her points weren't wrong about the books. I respect what Bakker is trying to do but I'm not necessarily in agreement with his conclusions (especially his believe that there is an evolutionary reason for rape...that's an extraordinary claim without the needed extraordinary evidence to back it).

On the term Grimdark, I find it be very useful--fantasy, usually of the deconstructive sort, that is fundamentally cynical about the human condition.

[Malaclypse]

You should have stuck with your last sentence. The preceding paragraph is well, I dunno, you tell me what the point you were trying to make was -it's cute and everything but what is your point?

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Speaking of Bakker, does anyone know what's the deal with his Twitter account? As far as I can tell, he's trying to rewrite the dictionary, one pseudo-intellectual definition at a time. (But seriously, his definitions border on the absurd).

[Madness]

I have to reread this thread because I originally opened it to make an offer and somehow between flipping to page five it became personally topical.

However...

If you wish it, I will make a ML subforum at www.second-apocalypse.com .

This post has been edited by Madness: 16 October 2014 - 01:07 AM

[amphibian]

The Mark Lawrence sub-forum seems to be an inevitable thing (assuming he keeps up at this rate of progress through his books).

I'm a fan of him and I really like Bakker's stuff too. I don't engage with those who really want to smack him down, so if Madness is Bakker, I'm sorry that you are reading this without seeing a rebuttal, but it's not the place and they're not really giving valid criticisms.

Looking forwards to the next Bakker book here.

[Morgoth]

Still, I must admitt the depiction of women in Bakker's books makes me uncomfortable. Might be I'm missing something. When that is said, I still buy the books and enjoy them.

[amphibian]

There are four significant female characters in Bakker's books so far:

Esmenet, the former whore who made a long lasting relationship with Achamanian and then married Kelhus. Is now queen and dealing with the horrors of a psychotic family and running an unstable empire on her own. Extremely smart, yet emotionally fragile from having had an incredibly difficult life and no real stability at any point beyond her later prostitute days.

Serwe, the first wife of Kelhus and former captive of the Scylvendi. Was perhaps the innocent lamb of the books so far and eventually met a grisly end due to the evil Consult assassins.

Mimara, the daughter of Esmenet who was sold into slavery to avoid a death by famine. Was a slave for many years and then became a prostitute, then was found and brought to the imperial palace by soldiers ordered to do so by Esmenet. Now resents Esmenet considerably, went to go learn magic from Achamanian, became part of the brutal Slog to Ishual and developed the Judging Eye - a massively powerful piece of magic ability.

Psatma Nannaferi/Sharacinth, the Yatwerian cultists. They are initially the means by which the White Luck Warrior enters the story, but then Psatma gets some sort of rejuvenation thing from her god and becomes a prophet/significant power in her own right.

There are other female characters, but they aren't significant shapers of the story (Anasurimbor Serwe being my chief example). I don't think any of these four women are misogynistic portrayals - they are fully realized characters who both act with volition and have it taken away from them in unusual ways that Bakker explores without being gratuitous or cheap. Bakker explores how these women deal with moments (or more than just moments) of physical powerlessness, power, riches, poverty, incredibly difficult choices and politics/religion/war. He doesn't leave them to be simple manipulation targets - excepting perhaps Serwe, who had little volition in anything in her short life. He also includes many males who are the targets of manipulation or are stripped of power/volition.

I haven't read Neuropath or Disciple of the Dog though, so I can't comment on those.

I do think that Bakker could use some more female characters in his Prince of Nothing/Aspect Emperor works, but it's hard to get that going in a world that's essentially medieval and completely at world-consuming war with a bunch of aliens and monsters.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

amphibian, on 16 October 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

The Mark Lawrence sub-forum seems to be an inevitable thing (assuming he keeps up at this rate of progress through his books).

I'm a fan of him and I really like Bakker's stuff too. I don't engage with those who really want to smack him down, so if Madness is Bakker, I'm sorry that you are reading this without seeing a rebuttal, but it's not the place and they're not really giving valid criticisms.

Looking forwards to the next Bakker book here.

Wait, Madness is Bakker? We get all sorts of cool authors in here!

[EmperorMagus]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 16 October 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Wait, Madness is Bakker? We get all sorts of cool authors in here!

I don't think so, thus the use of "if" by amph, if true though, it's awesome!

[Madness]

Lol...

I am definitely not Bakker. Though I find the fog of notoriety surrounding my fan-ness intriguing. I am a simple fan who just wants to see a greater fandom of a series of books that I love.

But no, literally, I was just looking around for an Abercrombie or Lawrence forum aside Westeros, Malazan, Goodkind, etc - though both of them seem notorious for having handles everywhere (excepting the Second Apocalypse).

[Malaclypse]

amphibian, on 16 October 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

There are four significant female characters in Bakker's books so far:

Esmenet, the former whore who made a long lasting relationship with Achamanian and then married Kelhus. Is now queen and dealing with the horrors of a psychotic family and running an unstable empire on her own. Extremely smart, yet emotionally fragile from having had an incredibly difficult life and no real stability at any point beyond her later prostitute days.

Serwe, the first wife of Kelhus and former captive of the Scylvendi. Was perhaps the innocent lamb of the books so far and eventually met a grisly end due to the evil Consult assassins.

Mimara, the daughter of Esmenet who was sold into slavery to avoid a death by famine. Was a slave for many years and then became a prostitute, then was found and brought to the imperial palace by soldiers ordered to do so by Esmenet. Now resents Esmenet considerably, went to go learn magic from Achamanian, became part of the brutal Slog to Ishual and developed the Judging Eye - a massively powerful piece of magic ability.

Psatma Nannaferi/Sharacinth, the Yatwerian cultists. They are initially the means by which the White Luck Warrior enters the story, but then Psatma gets some sort of rejuvenation thing from her god and becomes a prophet/significant power in her own right.

There are other female characters, but they aren't significant shapers of the story (Anasurimbor Serwe being my chief example). I don't think any of these four women are misogynistic portrayals - they are fully realized characters who both act with volition and have it taken away from them in unusual ways that Bakker explores without being gratuitous or cheap. Bakker explores how these women deal with moments (or more than just moments) of physical powerlessness, power, riches, poverty, incredibly difficult choices and politics/religion/war. He doesn't leave them to be simple manipulation targets - excepting perhaps Serwe, who had little volition in anything in her short life. He also includes many males who are the targets of manipulation or are stripped of power/volition.

I haven't read Neuropath or Disciple of the Dog though, so I can't comment on those.

I do think that Bakker could use some more female characters in his Prince of Nothing/Aspect Emperor works, but it's hard to get that going in a world that's essentially medieval and completely at world-consuming war with a bunch of aliens and monsters.

Bah. Dress it up however you like - the depiction of women in Bakker's books makes me uncomfortable and it's pretty much the sole reason I stopped reading his books - I like the quirky syntax and his characterization of that young emperor and his mother was amazing stuff but black semen and female submission as overpowering themes? It's just stomach-churning for me - I like my women wanton and fearless.

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 18 October 2014 - 02:49 PM

[Malaclypse]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 11 October 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Speaking of Bakker, does anyone know what's the deal with his Twitter account? As far as I can tell, he's trying to rewrite the dictionary, one pseudo-intellectual definition at a time. (But seriously, his definitions border on the absurd).

Weirdly, this makes me quite excited - sounds like like Bakker is doing a modern-day Devil's Dictionary? That would be awesome!

Obviously, I'm going now to try and find this but I'm not a fan of twitter so I may struggle so if somebody can link me it would be appreciated

[Madness]

Malaclypse, on 18 October 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Bah. Dress it up however you like - the depiction of women in Bakker's books makes me uncomfortable and it's pretty much the sole reason I stopped reading his books - I like the quirky syntax and his characterization of that young emperor and his mother was amazing stuff but black semen and female submission as overpowering themes? It's just stomach-churning for me - I like my women wanton and fearless.

I hope you'll still read what is to come.

Malaclypse, on 18 October 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 11 October 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Speaking of Bakker, does anyone know what's the deal with his Twitter account? As far as I can tell, he's trying to rewrite the dictionary, one pseudo-intellectual definition at a time. (But seriously, his definitions border on the absurd).

Weirdly, this makes me quite excited - sounds like like Bakker is doing a modern-day Devil's Dictionary? That would be awesome!

Obviously, I'm going now to try and find this but I'm not a fan of twitter so I may struggle so if somebody can link me it would be appreciated

https://twitter.com/TheDevilsChirp - It is an homage to the Devil's Dictionary. It definitely seems more of an art piece than a twitter by an author.

And the first couple posts in this thread include many that he did on his blog before he got social-media.

[Malaclypse]

oh wow, this guy is madder than me, I love that. Thanks!

[Malaclypse]

check this out:

The world is a supermax prison. If you see the light, it means the guards have foiled your attempt to escape. June 20/10


I think I could get along with this guy - maybe I could inject some hope into this man's life! Steve is a lost cause, as he's almost certainly right about everything, but this guy seems a bit uncertain. Like he doesn't believe that anybody has any principles worth the name but I assert that I do. This is some seriously depressing shit right here, reminds me of Steve because when you get to a certain point with your thinking you ultimately have to deal with the fact that the vast bulk of humanity have no philosophical position whatsoever - they just go with the flow and have no genuine adult opinion about anything. It's just about what they think will benefit them. And this is everybody and that's why, outside of a glorious accident, we will kill ourselves with indecision on this ball of mud. It's immensely frustrating.

[Madness]

You should come join Second Apocalypse, Malaclypse. You'd fit right in.

[QuickTidal]

Finished PRINCE OF FOOLS. Jalan is a great Flashman-coward style character, and Snorri is a perfect heroic opposite for that. Loved the aspect of the light/dark spell and how it worked, coupled with the avatars that were put into their heads. A real interesting non-Jorg look at the Broken Empire. Speaking of Jorg, the close cvall with the Brothers and the Queen ect. was all great! Just a phenomenal start to the follow up series.

Also, am I the only one who wants to read a story set in the East (Araby) of the Broken Empire? I'm fascinated as to what it would be like.

Can't wait to read book 2 now.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 31 October 2014 - 12:53 PM

[Madness]

Lmao. Wow. Rereading this thread years later is great.

I made a Mark Lawrence Fan Forum tonight.