[Dancer+]

That was a brillant post Apt. I tend to agree with the majority of it.

The only thing I'm skeptical of is the geographical and racial ties.

[Aptorian]

yeah, I'm just glad he didn't start critizising the timeline... there's not really any defense other than writting "THE TIMELINE IS NOT IMPORTANT" five hundred times.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

With regards to the timeline, do you reckon that once all the 10 books are out, SE will go back over and change them slightly to address inconsistencies?

Or will he be sensible and just say "sod it, I'll put a disclaimer"?

[Aptorian]

He talked about it in a recent interview. I actually think it was the "message from Steve" in fact.

He's not planning on trying to fix the timelines, he doesn't actually mind the inconsistencies seeing as they sort of fit into his idea of historical records not being as accurate as one would want.

Also if you think about it, especially surrounding the whole Lether timelines, he'd have to make drastic alterations in the story to make it all fit.

[Iskra]

Quote

While you're right, Erikson doesn't spend a lot of time portraying every character every time you meet them, there's plenty of descriptions of races, appearance and armor. Quite frankly you are simply wrong on that account. You would now if you remembered, there's just so much material it's hard to keep all the details in your head.

I would know if I remembered? What kind of an answer is that? I have all seven books right here beside me. I didn’t read Bonehunters a year ago…I finished it last week. These books have no descriptions. Again…what does a Faraed look like? What about a Letherii? I can see SE glossing over say, the Nerek…but the Letherii are a HUGE part of the story. What are their ethnic characteristics? What do they wear? Etc. etc.

Quote

Untans and Malazans look similar to western europeans and americans.

Say what? Those are two hugely diverse groups right there. Do the Malazans have middle stature, curly dark hair and brown eyes like Spaniards and Greeks or are they tall, fair haired and blue eyes like Scandinavians? All it takes is ONE sentence…just one to establish that.

“Now Whiskeyjack, who had the olive skin and curly dark hair found in most Malazans…� etc.

To not offer that is just sloppy.

Quote

The Itko Kanese and the Napan are sort of asian looking, the Napans also have blue skin.

“Sort of asian looking�…gosh you’re right. SE is a master of descriptions right there ha ha…

Quote

We've met about six or seven Jaghut, if you can't remember thir appearance it's because you don't remember.

I have Deadhouse Gates in front of me…Jaghut are described as having “lower tusks and greenish skin�. That’s it. I can build in my mind several creatures who have those characteristics and that look completely different from one another.

Quote

The reason to why you can't figure out the Malazan army "dresscode" is because in the armies we experience, it is virtually non-existant. The veterans, especially when cut off from regular supplies, scavenge the fallen and use what ever they can find. They wear anything and everything, we see this time and time again. The lighest of the marines wear boiled leather, the medium infantry along with the marines seem to use chainmale and lether and the heavies wear plate and chains. But it's all interchangable,

We have seen plenty of Malazans freshly dressed and there are no descriptions. The 14th Army in Bonehunters for example were filled with recruits newly minted and fresh supplies. Not a single description of their armor and uniforms is given. And several times in the books, particularly in Seven Cities, natives recognize the Malazans as being Malazans just by sight. Since SE doesn’t tell us whether Malazans are ethnically that distinct from Seven Cities folk I assume is because of their distinctive armor and weaponry…but again…I have to assume because SE never describes anything.

Quote

It's a fantasy world where the Jaghut and Storm Riders mess with the climate every second tuesday.

What an amazing cop-out. That’s your answer: Magic.

And also bullshit. The only entities who can change weather at will are the Jaghut and even then there are limitations. And let’s not forget the Jaghut are an almost extinct species. You cannot assign to them all the geographic and climatic inconsistencies of the books.

Quote

I'm guessing you're basing your criticism on the map Werthead made and updates every book. You have to remember that while Erikson has said that it's a good map and it's close to his own maps, he hasn't said that all the continent as aligned in the right position.

Again…I am forced to use Werthead’s maps because SE has still not provided as with full maps…by book SEVEN! How hard is it to draw a map, particularly considering the shitty quality of the maps we get anyway. I think it’s really hard when you have no idea what the world looks like and are just making up things as you go along which is exactly what I think SE is doing.

Everyone here remembers the embarrassing inconsistency in the number of continents in the Malaz world…quick SE…is it six or seven continents?

Quote

Your frustrations is what makes me love the books. I like the uncertainty. I like the fact that the author doesn't serve everything up to us on a plate like we're a five year old imbicile. I also enjoy the massive complexity of the story, it's like watching someone competing for the Guiness World Record of tangling threads.

That’s quite a snobbish attitude to have. Because I want some semblance of unification in the dozen dangling storylines I must be a “five year old imbecile� (sic)

Complexity does not always lead to greatness. Ask Yingwie Malmsteen. For every five friends I try to get into the books four quit without finishing Book 1…why? Because it’s just too damn complex…needlessly. Characters appear and then disappear adding nothing to the story, plots are hinted at but never explained, the rules of magic are constantly being changed from book to book, etc.

Maybe Steve just needs a good editor.

Quote

Erikson is showing us a world where everything isn't black and white, good against evil, us against them. There's a dozen major threats in the books. Creatures more powerfull than an average god. Things hidden in temples and ancient lands. Old powers more terrifying than the mortals imagine.

And those are pretty much the only reasons I’m still reading these books. I like his imagination and his originality…but plotting…he needs to sit at the feet of George R. R Martin and learn a thing or two about creating plots and memorable characters.

Quote

I agree with your worry about the story line getting tangled and the ending losing all meaning, but you have to remember, unlike authors such as Robert Jordan and Terry Badkind, Erikson started out planning to write ten books, not just three or five, TEN. He mapped out the story from the beginning. Pinpointing the major conflicts, the end and all the developing elements needed in between. Why do you think all the titles of the books were revealed way before he was even half way through? Of course there's a lot he didn't plan and he's just making up in each book, but the general course is set.

I think that’s fanboy wishful thinking. I think Steven Erikson is making this all up as he goes along but for some reason won’t admit to it. Just like Robert Jordan this story has clearly gotten away from him but he still holds to his guns and claims that everything is exactly as he plotted.

The truth is this…Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont, two amateur fantasists with no writing experience and vivid imaginations, created the Malaz world as the backdrop for a RPG game. They’ve said as much.

Then, realizing that the story could be expanded SE wrote a book. Then 10 years later decided to write a series. That’s it. We even had to create a term to explain the fact that Gardens of the Moon is clearly and obviously not connected to the other books and that it has a host of inconsistencies: a “GOTism�.

When you look at it that way you see the series’ problems make a lot more sense.

Quote

Zero backstory? Are you kidding me? The books have TONS of backstory. Kellanved and Dancers empires beginning is the backstory. The war on 7C is the backstory. The destruction of Shadow is the backstory. The First Empire is the backstory. The fall of the CG in Kallors empire is the backstory. It goes on and on...

No they’re not…they’re just declarative statements. None of the above is clarified satisfactorily in the series (at least not for me)

How does Kellanved, a tavern owner, create an empire? Why exactly is the Malazan Army able to conquer so easily and so readily? It ain’t the T’lan Imass. In Reaper’s Gale it states that the Emperor only unleashed them in Aren. Why do Duiker and Whiskeyjack all seem to know Kellanved personally? Why does the leadership of the Empire follow Laseen when the fact that she killed the rightful Emperor is common knowledge? Why does Admiral Nok follow her? Why is the fact that they’ve lived over 100 plus years beyond a normal human life span never talked about by the soldiers and citizens of this Empire? Why did Quick Ben and Kalam abandon their old loyalties and pledged themselves to an Empire that sought to destroy them and subjugate their native peoples and cultures?

Quote

You friend must not actually have read Night of Knives but just the backcover, because many of the mysteries were answered in NoK. We learned what happened to the emperor and dancer and we learned what happened to Dassem. Which was two of the bigger mysteries of the series.

No they weren’t. Emperor and Dancer were assassinated by Laseen. That was stated in the first third of Gardens of the Moon. The real mysteries are endless…how does someone Ascend, what are the actual properties of Warrens, how does one become a mage, the difference between Holds and Warrens, who build the Deadhouses, etc.

Books 8, 9 and 10 better be nothing but answers from beginning to end.

Quote

As for the progress of technology and science thing. This is something many fantasy worlds struggle with. The easiest answer is that when you have an abundance of magic users, that can heal and construct and destroy armies with their magic, you don't have the same drive to create new ways to make life more efficient.

I don’t see any mages in the books giving people rides by Warren (the impetus behind better roads and better transportation), I don’t see any mages mass producing books for general consumption (the impetus behind the printing press), I don’t see any mages helping peasants with harvests (the impetus behind the cotton gin and tractors), I don’t see any mages helping preserve meat (the impetus behind refrigetation), etc etc.

Mages are not facilitating every single part of society. In the Malaz world they seem to be either priests, politicians or Malaz’s version of artillery. There is no reason why Lether should spend 80,000 plus years not evolving anything. They haven’t even reached their equivalent of the Renaissance.

Quote

There is also the fact that every ten or fifty thousand years or so, a couple of ascendants go apeshit and lay waste to a continent. Destroying civilizations and wiping out entire races. Take 7Cs for example, the place is nearly dead now. It will take thousands upon thousands of years to repopulate the continent...

Ascendants laying waste to continents has only happened twice in the series. And Seven Cities will be just fine. Germany was completely rebuilt within 10 years of World War II and that lasted for six years. The Seven Cities rebellion lasted what…six months?

I just want SE to get serious about his world-building. Give us better maps, more descriptions, better appendices, less cynical phisophising and more backstory and please…concrete rules for magic. Magic as it is right now in the books is ridiculous. There are no rules. SE refuses to set the limitations because he keeps using magic as a Deus Ex Machina. Everytime there is a problem the characters can’t fix another characteristic of Warrens or Holds that has not been spoken about before conveniently is shown.

[Optimus Prime]

Ok i've had a second to think this out.

A few comments

Quote

How does Kellanved, a tavern owner, create an empire? Why exactly is the Malazan Army able to conquer so easily and so readily? It ain’t the T’lan Imass. In Reaper’s Gale it states that the Emperor only unleashed them in Aren. Why do Duiker and Whiskeyjack all seem to know Kellanved personally? Why does the leadership of the Empire follow Laseen when the fact that she killed the rightful Emperor is common knowledge? Why does Admiral Nok follow her? Why is the fact that they’ve lived over 100 plus years beyond a normal human life span never talked about by the soldiers and citizens of this Empire? Why did Quick Ben and Kalam abandon their old loyalties and pledged themselves to an Empire that sought to destroy them and subjugate their native peoples and cultures?

The threat of the Imass helped the Emperor conquer. Remember Throatslitter recalling his father telling him of the fall of Unta? It was accomplished in a single day because when the populace woke up to find Imass on their walls, they capitulated after a brief struggle.

Whiskeyjack knew the Emperor because HE USED TO BE A COMMANDER. He also knew Dassem well and USED TO SPAR WITH HIM.

That's what all the "OLD GUARD" was, Kellanved and Dancer's most trusted commanders/mages/advisors etc, etc. This really isn't difficult to explain.

The enhancing of age was due to elixirs/alchemies the Emperor gave his chosen. Re-read DhG, Duiker mentions it in one of his internal musings. The "normal" populace isn't really concerned with this since it isn't all that prevalent. Is it really that big of a deal that a chosen few have longer life? In this fantasy world, hell no.

Lastly, re-read MOI dude. Kalam and QB were so impressed (and awed) by WJ's pursuit of them through Raraku that they joined up. They weren't exactly loyal Seven Cities residents, either. WJ is a natural leader, how did you miss this? QB and Kalam were MERCENARIES during the Seven Cities conquest. They were fighting FOR MONEY, not a deep love of their "homeland". Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Seven Cities a mix of squabbling tribes, city states, and greedy princes/merchants/mages all trying to kill each other while fighting the Malazans as well?

While SE has been vague at points, I think you've skimmed during some of your reading.

[Illuyankas]

Iskra;300429 said:

I would know if I remembered? What kind of an answer is that? I have all seven books right here beside me. I didn’t read Bonehunters a year ago…I finished it last week. These books have no descriptions. Again…what does a Faraed look like? What about a Letherii? I can see SE glossing over say, the Nerek…but the Letherii are a HUGE part of the story. What are their ethnic characteristics? What do they wear? Etc. etc.

There's a bunch of descriptions of the Letherii in MT, mostly in comparison to the Edur. Personally, I like the vagueness of such unimportant details that add nothing to the story, and how it lets you picture the characters however you want. I can see how you may not like that sort of thing, though.

Iskra;300429 said:

Say what? Those are two hugely diverse groups right there. Do the Malazans have middle stature, curly dark hair and brown eyes like Spaniards and Greeks or are they tall, fair haired and blue eyes like Scandinavians? All it takes is ONE sentence…just one to establish that.

“Now Whiskeyjack, who had the olive skin and curly dark hair found in most Malazans…” etc.

To not offer that is just sloppy.

BECAUSE KNOWING WHETHER THE MALAZANS HAVE BRONZE SKIN OR A VERY SLIGHTLY PALER BRONZE SKIN MATTERS SO VERY VERY MUCH, AMIRITE? CAUSE THEIR HAIR COLOUR IS THE ALL-IMPORTANT DETAIL IN THE ACTUAL FUCKING STORYLINE WITHOUT WHICH THE REST OF IT CAN GO FUCK ITSELF, AMIRITE? I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT THE FACT ERIKSON HASN'T GONE INTO GREAT AND ANAL DETAIL ABOUT THE PROPENSITY OF THE MALAZANS TO BURN IN SUNLIGHT IS DEFINITELY PUTTING ME OFF THE SERIES

Also, mostly brown hair, some blonde, white skin. From GOTM and MOI. In several little snippets spread out so you pick them up as you go instead of one forced-seeming illusion-breaking infodump.

Iskra;300429 said:

“Sort of asian looking”…gosh you’re right. SE is a master of descriptions right there ha ha…

OH HO

Iskra;300429 said:

I have Deadhouse Gates in front of me…Jaghut are described as having “lower tusks and greenish skin”. That’s it. I can build in my mind several creatures who have those characteristics and that look completely different from one another.

You obviously missed the repeated references to their general build being tall and slender, then. The Gothos scene at the end of DG and the Huntress scene in MT should help you there.

Iskra;300429 said:

We have seen plenty of Malazans freshly dressed and there are no descriptions. The 14th Army in Bonehunters for example were filled with recruits newly minted and fresh supplies. Not a single description of their armor and uniforms is given. And several times in the books, particularly in Seven Cities, natives recognize the Malazans as being Malazans just by sight. Since SE doesn’t tell us whether Malazans are ethnically that distinct from Seven Cities folk I assume is because of their distinctive armor and weaponry…but again…I have to assume because SE never describes anything.

Weapons are spread out through the series, but I actually agree with you here, I've not really been able to picture the armour to my satisfaction. The best description I can remember is Dujek's from GOTM.

Iskra;300429 said:

What an amazing cop-out. That’s your answer: Magic.

And also bullshit. The only entities who can change weather at will are the Jaghut and even then there are limitations. And let’s not forget the Jaghut are an almost extinct species. You cannot assign to them all the geographic and climatic inconsistencies of the books.

Gothos froze a section of continent on the equator into an ice age for about 400,000 years. Brood can create mountain ranges at will. There are characters in this story that can kill worlds. In a series where one of the themes is people powerful enough to fuck the world trying their damnedest to do the opposite, you think they can't effect the weather?

Iskra;300429 said:

Again…I am forced to use Werthead’s maps because SE has still not provided as with full maps…by book SEVEN! How hard is it to draw a map, particularly considering the shitty quality of the maps we get anyway. I think it’s really hard when you have no idea what the world looks like and are just making up things as you go along which is exactly what I think SE is doing.

Everyone here remembers the embarrassing inconsistency in the number of continents in the Malaz world…quick SE…is it six or seven continents?

I could continue being a dick, but you obviously feel that leaving stuff vague, ambiguous and uncertain - the viewpoint that SE has stated the characters in the books are stuck with - is cheating and laziness from your perspective, instead of trying for the impression that the world is vague, ambiguous and uncertain, at least up until the point where all the books are out and there's no danger of map-related spoilers. Fair enough, it's not an approach you're required to like, and that's fine.

Iskra;300429 said:

That’s quite a snobbish attitude to have. Because I want some semblance of unification in the dozen dangling storylines I must be a “five year old imbecile” (sic)

Complexity does not always lead to greatness. Ask Yingwie Malmsteen. For every five friends I try to get into the books four quit without finishing Book 1…why? Because it’s just too damn complex…needlessly. Characters appear and then disappear adding nothing to the story, plots are hinted at but never explained, the rules of magic are constantly being changed from book to book, etc.

Maybe Steve just needs a good editor.

Again, the 'start in the middle of a story' idea didn't click for your mates. Their loss, I suppose. Oh, and not everything in real life gets resolved in a neat little package, who are you calling a snob, etc.

Iskra;300429 said:

And those are pretty much the only reasons I’m still reading these books. I like his imagination and his originality…but plotting…he needs to sit at the feet of George R. R Martin and learn a thing or two about creating plots and memorable characters.

[Insert rape/fanfave character murder/A Feast For Crows jibe here]

Iskra;300429 said:

I think that’s fanboy wishful thinking. I think Steven Erikson is making this all up as he goes along but for some reason won’t admit to it. Just like Robert Jordan this story has clearly gotten away from him but he still holds to his guns and claims that everything is exactly as he plotted.

Jordan started out with a trilogy. Erikson started with ten books. Publishers don't go YES to people saying 'I'm a brand new author who's going to write ten books worth of crap off the top of my head, gimme a contract!'. Plus I just plain disagree with you, 'fanboy' trolling or no. At least you haven't called us butthurt. Yet.

Iskra;300429 said:

The truth is this…Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont, two amateur fantasists with no writing experience and vivid imaginations, created the Malaz world as the backdrop for a RPG game. They’ve said as much.

Then, realizing that the story could be expanded SE wrote a book. Then 10 years later decided to write a series. That’s it. We even had to create a term to explain the fact that Gardens of the Moon is clearly and obviously not connected to the other books and that it has a host of inconsistencies: a “GOTism”.

When you look at it that way you see the series’ problems make a lot more sense.

I'd be a fool to say the series doesn't have problems. I don't believe they're as bad as you think.

Iskra;300429 said:

No they’re not…they’re just declarative statements. None of the above is clarified satisfactorily in the series (at least not for me)

How does Kellanved, a tavern owner, create an empire? Why exactly is the Malazan Army able to conquer so easily and so readily? It ain’t the T’lan Imass. In Reaper’s Gale it states that the Emperor only unleashed them in Aren. Why do Duiker and Whiskeyjack all seem to know Kellanved personally? Why does the leadership of the Empire follow Laseen when the fact that she killed the rightful Emperor is common knowledge? Why does Admiral Nok follow her? Why is the fact that they’ve lived over 100 plus years beyond a normal human life span never talked about by the soldiers and citizens of this Empire? Why did Quick Ben and Kalam abandon their old loyalties and pledged themselves to an Empire that sought to destroy them and subjugate their native peoples and cultures?

He's a genius, and a mage. Tactics, intimidation, superior government and High Mages. Did you not read a single chapter about the Old Guard? Kellanved promoted Duiker personally, and Whiskeyjack could have taken over from Laseen after the assassination. Stability and your own personal army of assassins. Alchemy for the rich, mages and ascendants have their own ways. They were hardly loyal, and Whiskeyjack impressed them during the italic-part of MOI.

Iskra;300429 said:

No they weren’t. Emperor and Dancer were assassinated by Laseen. That was stated in the first third of Gardens of the Moon. The real mysteries are endless…how does someone Ascend, what are the actual properties of Warrens, how does one become a mage, the difference between Holds and Warrens, who build the Deadhouses, etc.

Books 8, 9 and 10 better be nothing but answers from beginning to end.

CAUSE MYSTERIES SUCK, AMIRITE? I SURE DO LOVE HAVING EVERY SINGLE TIRESOME FACET OF A STORY EXPLAINED TO ME, ALL THAT ACTION AND ADVENTURE JUST GETS IN THE WAY OF ENDLESS MECHANICS DISCUSSION

Iskra;300429 said:

I don’t see any mages in the books giving people rides by Warren (the impetus behind better roads and better transportation), I don’t see any mages mass producing books for general consumption (the impetus behind the printing press), I don’t see any mages helping peasants with harvests (the impetus behind the cotton gin and tractors), I don’t see any mages helping preserve meat (the impetus behind refrigetation), etc etc.

Mages are not facilitating every single part of society. In the Malaz world they seem to be either priests, politicians or Malaz’s version of artillery. There is no reason why Lether should spend 80,000 plus years not evolving anything. They haven’t even reached their equivalent of the Renaissance.

Book-related answer: The Letherii are stuck in a ritual that basically froze the continent, including death, they may have been some society-related effects - see the changes in both Edur and Letherii society once the Ritual began to unravel.
Annoyed answer: IT'S NOT FUCKING EARTH, HOLY FUCKING FUCKINGTON

Iskra;300429 said:

Ascendants laying waste to continents has only happened twice in the series. And Seven Cities will be just fine. Germany was completely rebuilt within 10 years of World War II and that lasted for six years. The Seven Cities rebellion lasted what…six months?

I just want SE to get serious about his world-building. Give us better maps, more descriptions, better appendices, less cynical phisophising and more backstory and please…concrete rules for magic. Magic as it is right now in the books is ridiculous. There are no rules. SE refuses to set the limitations because he keeps using magic as a Deus Ex Machina. Everytime there is a problem the characters can’t fix another characteristic of Warrens or Holds that has not been spoken about before conveniently is shown.

The rebellion lasted around two years. And then almost every single person on that continent died from the plague.

The only thing keeping me from another argument-weakening AMIRITE rant is that the Beak Ex Machina in RG really annoyed me, so you have a small point there. I'd still personally have the ambiguity until the end of the series, where I can see how well SE kept to his plan, around the same level of descriptions - they aren't obtrusive, and I want them to stay that way -
the appendices and maps can go in the last book or get posted here, and maybe just a couple more stoic characters.




I tried to answer your sensible points with accuracy, and treated your trolling points with the quality responses they deserved. Still, you're free to dislike whatever parts of the books you feel like, and to tell us about it - dissenting opinions are welcome.








AMIRITE?

[Optimus Prime]

Damn Illy, I think I just creamed my pants that was so good

And yeah, I know that's gross, but I just don't care.

[Silencer]

Xander just killed the thread....except for people commenting how disgusting that was.

Beyond that: great response Illy!
I get the feeling that Iskra is a skim-reader. He seems to have missed half the plot, mechanics, and other miscellaneous descriptions.

[Optimus Prime]

It was my pleasure.

Well yeah, that's obvious. The guy obviously skimmed through much of the first few books and then by the time he started to read more thoroughly he was really confused. While he has a few points, his arrogant response to Apt sets people off.

Also, he seems to think his "opinions" are facts.

[Silencer]

I am sort of guilty of 'skimming' the first book myself - but I had the skillz back then to do it and still get all the cool moments/info. However, I actually re-read it straight away, found some new stuff, moved on, now reading slower to get the full glory. There is skimming and then there is SKIMMING.

Part of it is his attitude, I agree. Although he seems to be slamming the book - what does he like? Why is he still reading?

[Optimus Prime]

Good question. It's cool to criticize the series but you don't have to flame to do that.

He seems bitter. Since he missed a few early bits of info his interest has turned to confusion.

[Silencer]

I would suggest an in-depth re-read.

[Aptorian]

While it's apparent that you're not interested in seeing any of Eriksons writting characteristics as positive and your arguments are on the verge of trolling, I'll try again.

[quote name='Iskra;300429][QUOTE]While you're right' date=' Erikson doesn't spend a lot of time portraying every character every time you meet them, there's plenty of descriptions of races, appearance and armor. Quite frankly you are simply wrong on that account. You would now if you remembered, there's just so much material it's hard to keep all the details in your head.[/QUOTE']

I would know if I remembered? What kind of an answer is that? I have all seven books right here beside me. I didn’t read Bonehunters a year ago…I finished it last week. These books have no descriptions. Again…what does a Faraed look like? What about a Letherii? I can see SE glossing over say, the Nerek…but the Letherii are a HUGE part of the story. What are their ethnic characteristics? What do they wear? Etc. etc.[/QUOTE]

Are you really telling me that you didn't pick up on one single description of clothing during Midnight Tides? Any facial features. REALLY? Erikson mentions things in passing, he gives us sporadic information because they are used to lend help to the imagination. You're supposed to shape them in your mind. Do you really expect a full character portrait every time a new person steps into a scene? 6-7 books into a series... that sounds unnecessary.

[quote=Iskra;300429][QUOTE]Untans and Malazans look similar to western europeans and americans.[/QUOTE]
Say what? Those are two hugely diverse groups right there. Do the Malazans have middle stature, curly dark hair and brown eyes like Spaniards and Greeks or are they tall, fair haired and blue eyes like Scandinavians? All it takes is ONE sentence…just one to establish that.

“Now Whiskeyjack, who had the olive skin and curly dark hair found in most Malazans…” etc.

To not offer that is just sloppy. [/quote]

I'm sorry I should rephrase that, CAUCASIAN!

The Malazan people are a diverse people their empire is spread all over three continents. Would you expect someone to give a precise description of the peoples of the Roman empire? How many countries, clans, ethnicities do you think the Roman empire covered? Would you just say that a person in the roman empire looked Italian?

And like Illy said... It must be really hard to read the story when it has you wondering whether the four guys trying to kill a Jaghut Tyrant have broad noses or maybe hawkish ones, perhaps a thin jawline and was that guys hair black or brown???

[quote=Iskra;300429]
[QUOTE]The Itko Kanese and the Napan are sort of asian looking, the Napans also have blue skin.[/QUOTE]

“Sort of asian looking”…gosh you’re right. SE is a master of descriptions right there ha ha…[/quote]

Now you're just being a prick. You sounded like you honestly didn't know what the above mentioned people looked like so I gave a list of the destinct racial apperances. If I say asian, african, indian, etc. don't you immediatly develop some mental images? Well the same counts for the peoples of the Malazan world. Let your imagination do the rest... all though it sounds like that's something you're not actually interested in, which is odd, this being a fantasy series and all.

[quote name='Iskra;300429][QUOTE]We've met about six or seven Jaghut' date=' if you can't remember thir appearance it's because you don't remember.[/QUOTE']
I have Deadhouse Gates in front of me…Jaghut are described as having “lower tusks and greenish skin”. That’s it. I can build in my mind several creatures who have those characteristics and that look completely different from one another.[/QUOTE]

Again, you get some details of an alien creature, it's enough for you to picture it as being foreign and primal looking. If you need to, piece together Raest description, with the Jhag Icarium and Gothos. Erikson doesn't carry you through every book repeating everything over and over. Move on.

[quote name='Iskra;300429][QUOTE]The reason to why you can't figure out the Malazan army "dresscode" is because in the armies we experience' date=' it is virtually non-existant. The veterans, especially when cut off from regular supplies, scavenge the fallen and use what ever they can find. They wear anything and everything, we see this time and time again. The lighest of the marines wear boiled leather, the medium infantry along with the marines seem to use chainmale and lether and the heavies wear plate and chains. But it's all interchangable,[/quote']

We have seen plenty of Malazans freshly dressed and there are no descriptions. The 14th Army in Bonehunters for example were filled with recruits newly minted and fresh supplies. Not a single description of their armor and uniforms is given. And several times in the books, particularly in Seven Cities, natives recognize the Malazans as being Malazans just by sight. Since SE doesn’t tell us whether Malazans are ethnically that distinct from Seven Cities folk I assume is because of their distinctive armor and weaponry…but again…I have to assume because SE never describes anything.[/quote]

I agree, such details are sorely lacking, but does it really bother you that much. It's not like you're trying to pick them out of a lineup. You're given the information that different sections of the army use boiled leather, chainmail and plate. You've seen movies, paint yourself a picture. Do you really need to know the precise cut and design of every detail?

[quote=Iskra;300429][QUOTE]It's a fantasy world where the Jaghut and Storm Riders mess with the climate every second tuesday.[/QUOTE]

What an amazing cop-out. That’s your answer: Magic.

And also bullshit. The only entities who can change weather at will are the Jaghut and even then there are limitations. And let’s not forget the Jaghut are an almost extinct species. You cannot assign to them all the geographic and climatic inconsistencies of the books.[/QUOTE]

IT'S FANTASY! FAAANTAAASYYYY!!! Who gives a shit about the weather or which climate is near a theoretical equator?

But lets say I do. In the real world, does the north pole and antarctica effect the worlds climate? yes, it does. Now lets say that a Jaghut creates a couple billion tones of ice overlapping most of Africa stretching into the surrounding sea. Would that have an effect on the worlds climate... you tell me? Does it matter that the sealevels fall ten or twenty meters or rise ten or twenty meters? I think it might. That the actual reason to why 7C is a desert, it used be a mass of bigger and smaller islands surrounded by a sea that streched all the way into Raraku.

[quote name='Iskra;300429][QUOTE]I'm guessing you're basing your criticism on the map Werthead made and updates every book. You have to remember that while Erikson has said that it's a good map and it's close to his own maps' date=' he hasn't said that all the continent as aligned in the right position.[/QUOTE']

Again…I am forced to use Werthead’s maps because SE has still not provided as with full maps…by book SEVEN! How hard is it to draw a map, particularly considering the shitty quality of the maps we get anyway. I think it’s really hard when you have no idea what the world looks like and are just making up things as you go along which is exactly what I think SE is doing.[/quote]

What do you need full maps for? You're given maps of the places where the books take place. Isn't that enough? Do you expect the author to give you an address to Google Earth?

[quote=Iskra;300429]
Everyone here remembers the embarrassing inconsistency in the number of continents in the Malaz world…quick SE…is it six or seven continents?[/quote]

What the hell are you on about? It's not an age of sattelites, do you expect the people of an ancient age to know all the continents? There's both big ones and so called "india" type subcontinents. Live with it. It's not something I lose sleep over... not like the question of who's going to be Hoods wife, that ones a doozy.

[quote name='Iskra;300429][QUOTE]Your frustrations is what makes me love the books. I like the uncertainty. I like the fact that the author doesn't serve everything up to us on a plate like we're a five year old imbicile. I also enjoy the massive complexity of the story' date=' it's like watching someone competing for the Guiness World Record of tangling threads.[/QUOTE']

That’s quite a snobbish attitude to have. Because I want some semblance of unification in the dozen dangling storylines I must be a “five year old imbecile” (sic)

Complexity does not always lead to greatness. Ask Yingwie Malmsteen. For every five friends I try to get into the books four quit without finishing Book 1…why? Because it’s just too damn complex…needlessly. Characters appear and then disappear adding nothing to the story, plots are hinted at but never explained, the rules of magic are constantly being changed from book to book, etc.

Maybe Steve just needs a good editor. [/quote]

I didn't call you a 5 year old imbicile... I could though

What I ment was that, unlike some authors, Erikson doesn't repeat over and over again the last books events. He doesn't remind you of a prior conversation that took place 200 pages ago in boring flash backs. And, which really seems to bother you, he doesn't explain everything so that you can put the book away feeling that you now know everything.

About the characters popping up and disappearing. Are you kidding me? Erikson is great at making characters appear even for a brief instance and then showing up again two or three books later. I don't know where that is coming from.

[quote=Iskra;300429]And those are pretty much the only reasons I’m still reading these books. I like his imagination and his originality…but plotting…he needs to sit at the feet of George R. R Martin and learn a thing or two about creating plots and memorable characters.[/QUOTE]

You mean endless boring POVs that go nowhere and makes you want to kill somebody? Yeah, I think I prefer Erikson.

[quote=Iskra;300429]
I think that’s fanboy wishful thinking. I think Steven Erikson is making this all up as he goes along but for some reason won’t admit to it. Just like Robert Jordan this story has clearly gotten away from him but he still holds to his guns and claims that everything is exactly as he plotted.[/quote]

Seriously? This is your opinion? You think Erikson met a publishing house, claimed he had a manuscript for ten books, gave them GotM and they then just gave him 500.000 pounds? really? REALLY?

[quote=Iskra;300429]
The truth is this…Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont, two amateur fantasists with no writing experience and vivid imaginations, created the Malaz world as the backdrop for a RPG game. They’ve said as much.

Then, realizing that the story could be expanded SE wrote a book. Then 10 years later decided to write a series. That’s it. We even had to create a term to explain the fact that Gardens of the Moon is clearly and obviously not connected to the other books and that it has a host of inconsistencies: a “GOTism”.[/quote]

Nobody is arguing against this. Erikson achknowledges the books faults.

[quote=Iskra;300429]
How does Kellanved, a tavern owner, create an empire? Why exactly is the Malazan Army able to conquer so easily and so readily? It ain’t the T’lan Imass. In Reaper’s Gale it states that the Emperor only unleashed them in Aren. Why do Duiker and Whiskeyjack all seem to know Kellanved personally? Why does the leadership of the Empire follow Laseen when the fact that she killed the rightful Emperor is common knowledge? Why does Admiral Nok follow her? Why is the fact that they’ve lived over 100 plus years beyond a normal human life span never talked about by the soldiers and citizens of this Empire? Why did Quick Ben and Kalam abandon their old loyalties and pledged themselves to an Empire that sought to destroy them and subjugate their native peoples and cultures?[/quote]

The emperor used the T'lan Imass to conquer both Unta and 7C and after having destroyed a couple of cities, just the threat of the T'lan Imass must have been enough for cities to surrender. Kellanveds probably lived 200 years. Read some of the chapter openings, he's written Sun Tzu and Marcus Aurelius type philosophies on government and war. Kellanved is a genious, and a ruthless and ambitious one at that.

Aren wasn't the emperors doing, it was Surly. We know this from Apsalar/Dancers memories. But it would also had been enough to put "the fear of god" into any other city or province that wanted to rebel.

Besides the T'lan Imass the Malazan empire ventured into an alliance with the Moranth. The ammunitions they were given changed the face of battle.

The Malazan Empire also used to have cadres of mages. Cadres of mages they don't have any longer.

The people don't know what happened on the Night of Knives. They knew there was a coup, but they don't know the details. The people had been living without their emperor and dancer for a long time, perhaps as much as a decade allthough the details are sketchy. Surly was already very much in control, and the transition, after killing off the nobility must have been very smooth.

Duiker, WJ, Dujek, etc hung out with the Old Family. The longevity is probably not so hard to swallow when you live in a world with mages and Trell and Giant races and soletaken, etc. etc.


[quote=Iskra;300429]
No they weren’t. Emperor and Dancer were assassinated by Laseen. That was stated in the first third of Gardens of the Moon. The real mysteries are endless…how does someone Ascend, what are the actual properties of Warrens, how does one become a mage, the difference between Holds and Warrens, who build the Deadhouses, etc.[/quote]

We knew that the Emperor and Dancer died. We didn't know how it went down. How she managed it. And we didn't know how the Emperor and Dancer ascended.

We have an idea of how you ascend. Isn't that enough? Do you want Samar Dev to draw you a schematic with mathematc calculations and a thesis on probablity and efficacy?

You are born with an affinity for magic or you study REAL hard, like Kiska could had done in NoK.

The actual properties of warrens and holds are outside what we should be able to know. Do we know everything about quantum physics, space/time, gravity, superstring theory, etc? No, the interactions of warrens and their very existance would naturally be on that level of complexity.

The Deadhouse is an Azath, it built itself.

[quote=Iskra;300429]
Books 8, 9 and 10 better be nothing but answers from beginning to end.[/quote]

I would stop reading now, because you're going to be very frustrated by the end of The Crippled God then.

[quote=Iskra;300429]
Ascendants laying waste to continents has only happened twice in the series. And Seven Cities will be just fine. Germany was completely rebuilt within 10 years of World War II and that lasted for six years. The Seven Cities rebellion lasted what…six months?[/quote]

7Cs is dead. There's probably not more than a few hundred thousand people alive on the continent, at the most.

There's a difference between having the population density of Europe in an industrial/atomic age and being virtually wiped out and having the technological skills of the roman/mongol empire. Most of the continents scholars and craftsmen lived in the cities, there's probably only farmers and desert tribes left now.

The same goes for the Panion Domin. It's empty. When the cities fall, society crumbles.

[quote=Iskra;300429]
I just want SE to get serious about his world-building. Give us better maps, more descriptions, better appendices, less cynical phisophising and more backstory and please…concrete rules for magic. Magic as it is right now in the books is ridiculous. There are no rules. SE refuses to set the limitations because he keeps using magic as a Deus Ex Machina. Everytime there is a problem the characters can’t fix another characteristic of Warrens or Holds that has not been spoken about before conveniently is shown.[/quote]

That's just not his style. And seven books into the series, you should probably stop expecting more.

I'm sorry if I come off sounding snobbish, but you come off sounding aggresive and ignorant of much of the books events and it's charms. I'd seriously suggest a carefull reread. It's all there the second time you read it.

EDIT: Goddamn, that took far too long to type out

[Imperial Historian]

Nice posts here, iskra has some valid points, but a lot of the time it is a matter of taste or missing some vital information. SE's descriptions are admitedly sparse, and I like that fact, theres no need for an author to force their viewpoint of a character other than a few key characteristics down your throat, and it's one of the things which bug me a lot about other authors with there info dumps, but there is a lot of information about the various racial groups (see the topics here and here for discussion on the racial groups). the malazan sub-group is not particularly well defined, and I think this is mainly due to the fact that there isn't much uniformity, quon tali is a hodge podge of cultures and skin tones and i'd be the first to admit this isn't particularly well explained, the likelihood is there has been a large degree of immigration onto this continent over the years resulting in this mixed array of races. Malazans range the full colour spectrum, mezla slanted eyes seem to be a relatively common feature, but thats probably only one common (among those who travel anyway) sub-group of malazans (likely the kanese), but there is no defining feature to mezla as they are an amalgamation of peoples not a racial subtype, seven cities people recognise them from there foreignness and accent not racial features. so I'd disagree with you there Apt on the use of the word caucasian.

Re writing the series, gardens was written originally as a screenplay then later expanded into book form, at this point SE had vague ideas of where the series would go, and a basic plot outline, he'd not plotted out the whole series, but he had spent years working on an indepth history through roleplaying games. Then later once published, he sat down and worked out what he needed to write and how the story would go, he plotted out that he was going to need 10 books to write the story he needed to tell, 8 of which he was pretty sure as to what needed to be in where, and 2 as spare to leave him space to write about anything that needed to be further explored (one of these has been filled as far I know Midnight Tides explored the edur story further than originally planned), the 10 book sequence was envisioned as three arcs, which by the looks of it we have just completed the second of, with an overiding plot behind it. He seems to have had a much more defined view of what he has wanted to do, and has stuck to it for the 10 book sequence then Robert Jordan or GRRM for example. As to why gardens and the rest are so inconsistent, there was a period of about 10 years in between writing it and the rest of the books, over which time SE's world inevitably developed, so it's a bit too much to expect complete consistency.

As to maps, there is a map, but it's so damn big that getting it into book form has proved problematical, with RG and BH being especially long there just wasn't enough space as far as the publishers were concerned,expect one to come out when the series is done, and for more details and appendicies, check the online wiki which makes an attempt at collating such data, and expect a more detailed look when the series has finished and he sits down and writes an encylcopedia of all this stuff. i don't know about you but I'd rather he finished the books rather than spend his time catalogueing stuff.

That said I can see why SE's vagueness and inconcistencies are annoying, but i find them a refreshing take, as they are more like real histories. The deux ex machina nature of some magic can be aggravating, but still if the world was more certain and cut and dried, i wouldn't love these books so much, and i definitely wouldn't be on these forums as much

[Optimus Prime]

Well said IH.

GotM was one of his first novels, so admittedly it is flawed. SE is obviously a lover of history, and history is anything but clear at points in our own world, so why does it have to be in a FANTASY story?

Yes he could give better descriptions.
Yes the maps could be better.
Yes the magic can sometimes just appear as a problem solver.

But I prefer these tiny flaws (as I see them) to the tedious penchant of some writers to constantly lead the reader by the nose throughout an entire series.

[Nagrom]

The only 2 criticisms I have with the books is:

A: Its not gonna BE long enuff,
10 books (maybe 20 with ICE's books) will not satisfy me. I want more, plz. which brings me to....

B: I cannot read any other fantasy now, as any other fantasy I read now is just stuff FOR kids. Seriously, its ruined it all FOR me now.

When all the books have been published, how the hell am I gonna read any other fantasy? I've tried already, really tried,
(going back 2 Jordans' WoT, my God that was a futile exercise, no offence but, meh)

So when I wanna Sword 'N' Sorcery-out, I just keep re-reading MBotF over and over. This helps get more of a grasp on so much info that I missed the 1st time.

I don't need discriptions of the racial type/armour/etc.
I need action, with pathos, philosophy, a decent reflection of our own human condition and some aspirations to live up TO.

I agree with some of the remarks about lack of 'defined characterization' but quite frankly I like the fact that I can use my imagination and BE treated like a intelligent person. (Kel and Dancer could look like Tony Blair and Gordan Brown FOR all I care) :eek:

Its different than any other fantasy out there, partly due TO this fact. The creatures/races/magic systems ARE unique and the way it is written makes me feel part of the continued development of the 'world', I have more control over how Wu functions, how a certain character looks, what a particular race is like physically.

Howeva I understand that these books ARE not FOR every1, I only recommend these TO select folks I meet. Not everybody likes being 'kept in the dark'. Personally I can't wait FOR TtH not TO clear things up and not dot the 'i's, but TO make me work FOR some kinda conclusion of my own.
(I gotta make my own as er...
I still don't know what the hell is going on, lol)

and I'll still want more!

The closest thing I can think of, as a description FOR 'MBotF', is:
"Its like finding a 'history of the human race' book, in the British library. There ARE chapters randomly torn out, a few pages of the bible/quoran inserted in odd places, YOU may BE able TO cross ref. some of it with some pamphlets that the library have lying about, but most of these also have pages missing and thick crayon written over all the important parts. The reader is from Pluto, its set 1000,0000 years ago, there is no such thing as 'milk' and quite frankly the idea of evolved monkeys is distasteful , but it cannot BE put down, YOU gotta keep reading it!

So, not a story arc in the traditional narrative style, but a wonderfuly compelling allegory with hidden depths and an extended metaphor on the theme of power, control, empire, society and personal morality as well as some souped-up kick ass characters who whoop it up in mighty epic battles.................................................
on steriods .............................while coming up on acid

Maybe it could do with a bit less geology tho.

PS. Iskra why do YOU read these books?

[Optimus Prime]

I'd again like to state that Iskra was just doing what the thread says, list his criticisms of the series. It was more his attitude that annoys me than the actual act of criticising SE or ICE.

They aren't perfect authors, we all know that.

[Ammanas]

Iskra;300429 said:

And those are pretty much the only reasons I’m still reading these books. I like his imagination and his originality…but plotting…he needs to sit at the feet of George R. R Martin and learn a thing or two about creating plots and memorable characters.

Wow, what a stupid and untrue thing to say. If GRRM plotted as well as you claim, we'd be reading Dance with Dragons. Instead, your alleged plot master stumbles through interviews saying stuff like "Well, I, uh, got mixed up in that last book and then tried to divide it in two and uh...three years later, still no book.

GRRM has lost control of his series and now all the man does, according to his website, is go to fantasy conventions.

[Mentalist]

well, I've re-read this last debate and must say, a lot of good points were made by Apt, Illy and IH
for myself, I'll dare add one thing:
Iskra thinks that SE is lost in his own plot a la Jordan and suggests taking an example form GRRM. Now, while I like ASoiAF a great deal, I'm far more concerned about how THAT story will get wrapped up in the 3 remaining books than I am about the MBotF. Also, even though i feel it may be redundant, I'll point out that SE delivers us a book a year with amazing consistency, while the waiting for a new book in ASoIAF, (which is claimed as an example of a great, COMPLETELY well-thought out plot), is worthy of an epic in its own right, by this point.
EDIT: lmfao, cross-post with Ammanas... great minds really do think alike, lmfao....