[SiriusL]

wintermute;193138 said:

For example, that random heavy who took out a trol'baral despite it being some crazy ascendant that was worth unleashing the deragoth for.

Indeed, the trol'bharal (sp) was a huge disappointment. It seemed like it failed in everything it tried to do, except separate Mappo from Icarium.

Maybe that was kind of an inside joke. The Prologue gives this great buildup, making you think the demon is going to destroy everything in it's path, then Paran has to go get the Deragoth because he's afraid of the thing. But it turns out that your random heavy infantry soldier can hold her own (well, she had a little respite from the Hounds).

I did like how we were able to see Pust's power first-hand, finally--to the extent that even Cotillion was surprised.

[joe86s]

well, as for the trol'baral, SE explains that with it being weak and whatnot from hunger. plus, there was a ton of ironic humor in how easily the demon was taken out--i guess the point was that the world moved on while it was imprisoned. and the Karsa thing annoyed me for a while, till I realized that he was gonna have to fight Rulad and possibly Icarium. That'll be pretty cool...

[SiriusL]

More criticism...I guess.


What's with all the scenes of men being raped?

In MoI, the Dead Seed women rape dying soldiers.
In HoC, the Eres'al goddess rapes Trull.
In MT, Menandore rapes Udinaas.

I think there may be more, but I can't think of them (thankfully).

My main problem is...how is this at all realistic? * And even if the men in this world are predisposed to erections at horrific moments...the whole theme seems a bit overdone.

Secondly, how do all these rapes always end up impregnating the women? It's hard enough to get pregnant during consensual sex (something like 25% chances).... It seems a little convenient as a plot device. Not that it's not common in all fiction.



* Yes...I know. Asking for realism in a book with dragons, 18-foot tall Toblakai, and a planet that is actually a goddess... Fair enough.

[Imperial Historian]

As far as I know, at least two of those occasions involved the use of magic, eres and menandore definitely used magic to arouse their victim and ensure there was a child.

With the women of the dead seed, it might have involved magic, especially since these women all wielded the magic of the CG, again the purpose being to conceive a child, this time to honour the CG.

[SiriusL]

Imperial Historian;196887 said:

As far as I know, at least two of those occasions involved the use of magic, eres and menandore definitely used magic to arouse their victim and ensure there was a child.

With the women of the dead seed, it might have involved magic, especially since these women all wielded the magic of the CG, again the purpose being to conceive a child, this time to honour the CG.

I didn't think the use of magic (for that purpose) was clear at all. I'm sure there was magic in use somewhere, but where is it implicated in the arousal and conception process?

BTW, I appreciate that you take the time to reply to my posts, Historian (even if you seem to argue against me most of the time ).

[Gabrie]

SiriusL;196727 said:

What's with all the scenes of men being raped?

Boohoo. After all the women being raped, how dare the author do it to the menz ;P

Quote

My main problem is...how is this at all realistic? * And even if the men in this world are predisposed to erections at horrific moments...the whole theme seems a bit overdone.

Hardly. It is actually simply another form of sexism to assume only women can get raped. That is wrong and shows ignorance of simple biological mechanics. Men do get raped, by women, in real life. It shows in fact quite an amount of research on Erikson's part to even know of that, most guys have no clue about that.
See, an erection is a biological thing. Just like a woman can have an orgasm during a rape despite not enjoying it at all, a man can have an erection despite not enjoying it.

Quote

Secondly, how do all these rapes always end up impregnating the women? It's hard enough to get pregnant during consensual sex (something like 25% chances).... It seems a little convenient as a plot device. Not that it's not common in all fiction.

Always? The women of the dead seed sure don't always succeed. That's why they are always trying. The others? Magic.

[SiriusL]

Gabrie;197591 said:

Boohoo. After all the women being raped, how dare the author do it to the menz ;P

Please. Spare me the sarcasm and ridiculous assumptions about my beliefs, about which you can glean nothing from this particular criticism.

Gabrie;197591 said:

Hardly. It is actually simply another form of sexism to assume only women can get raped. That is wrong and shows ignorance of simple biological mechanics. Men do get raped, by women, in real life. It shows in fact quite an amount of research on Erikson's part to even know of that, most guys have no clue about that.
See, an erection is a biological thing. Just like a woman can have an orgasm during a rape despite not enjoying it at all, a man can have an erection despite not enjoying it.

Oddly enough, I understand biology pretty well. I'm not arguing it's not possible, far from it.* I'm suggesting the occurrences in the books seem too plentiful to be realistic, especially with no explanation of how it happened. Maybe Erikson just doesn't want to get into describing erections, which is fair enough. You have to admit, though, that raping a man would be extraordinarily difficult if he wasn't aroused (biologically). I just think it's odd that it seems to be a major plot device.

Please don't lecture me on sexism, nor my beliefs, because my arguments have nothing to do with that. If you have actual information that wouid indicate that this type of rape is more common than I think, please present it.

Gabrie;197591 said:

Always? The women of the dead seed sure don't always succeed. That's why they are always trying. The others? Magic.

The fact that there are an entire group of people called the Children of the Dead seed lends credence to my suggestion that they are far more successful than should be naturally possible. Obviously "always" was an exaggeration--sorry you didn't catch that.

As for the use of magic, I already addressed that. Please answer that question in case I missed it in the books.



* This site (Rape Myths) has some information about this, and there are other similar sites. It's obviously biologically possible and does happen, but it's extremely rare (something like 97-98% of rape perpetrators are male). There may be bias in the stats because a lot of rapes are not reported. I don't want to turn this into a debate over rape, since this is a thread about criticism of the books.

[Imperial Historian]

HoC p889 'a flash of images... time folding in on itself, sinking away and then rising once more-'

So the eres clearly used magic in this case, to fold time at least and either seduced Trull, or has some magic which arouses those she is near like bottle.

Menandore is less, clear, but there is a suggestion that it's not Udinass who is responsible for the arousal but the Wyval

MT HB, p80-81 'Fire in his blood.' and later 'The Wyval's blood is alive'

As for the children of the dead seed, it sounds a bit improbable but I think SE makes at least an attempt at explaining it, though I can't find the quote at the moment, at any rate the fact that all the mothers of the children of the dead seed all have chaotic magic suggests at least a possible use of magic in the raping of the dead.

that said yes, the occasions of women raping men are perhaps out of proportion to what we know in our world, but consider... in this world more women have the power to rape thanks to magic, wheras most women probably do not have the physical strength to overpower and rape most men normally.

and if you ask interesting questions, or make interesting points I'll answer clearly you have been posting a variety of interesting questions.

[SiriusL]

I know--like I said before, I feel a little stupid for asking questions about "realism."

Good point about the Wyval--I hadn't even considered that.

[Draconus]

SiriusL;196727 said:

More criticism...I guess.


What's with all the scenes of men being raped?

In MoI, the Dead Seed women rape dying soldiers.
In HoC, the Eres'al goddess rapes Trull.
In MT, Menandore rapes Udinaas.

I think there may be more, but I can't think of them (thankfully).

My main problem is...how is this at all realistic? * And even if the men in this world are predisposed to erections at horrific moments...the whole theme seems a bit overdone.

Secondly, how do all these rapes always end up impregnating the women? It's hard enough to get pregnant during consensual sex (something like 25% chances).... It seems a little convenient as a plot device. Not that it's not common in all fiction.



* Yes...I know. Asking for realism in a book with dragons, 18-foot tall Toblakai, and a planet that is actually a goddess... Fair enough.

Eresal and Menandore are ascendants, and doubtless fertility aspected to some extent. This is a supernatural experience, and therefore impossible to compare to a biologically normal rape. Furthermore, there seems to be a certain amount of mind-control at work.

As to the tenescowri witches, they are apparently taking advantage of normally occuring "erections" that are not uncommon with a dead or dying man, brought on by lack of oxygen to the brain. The fact that they can elicit ejaculation (I hope I'm not being too graphic here) and give birth to soulless offspring, again indicates that this is a supernatural occurence, and again not governed by normal biological laws.

Don't forget Erikson's archaeological background, the myths of Egypt and Central America especially are rife with similar themes.

[STOUT]

I dont like sometimes how SE gets a little to graphic especially when descriing what happend on sepik, and when Karsa was first introduced how they enjoyed "Lopping off childrens heads" I know he really means adults but Karsa was annoying back since that he has grown on me.

[SiriusL]

STOUT;204471 said:

I dont like sometimes how SE gets a little to graphic especially when descriing what happend on sepik, and when Karsa was first introduced how they enjoyed "Lopping off childrens heads" I know he really means adults but Karsa was annoying back since that he has grown on me.

You mean like how blood sprays every time any fighting happens?

He is pretty graphic, but at the same time he never glorifies the violence. I think the gore adds to the gravity.

But there is a lot of spraying blood.

[Shadow Dancer]

here's a minor one. i think that the figures of the heavies are a "little" stereotyped: they are all big, stupid, brainless.

[STOUT]

SiriusL;204658 said:

You mean like how blood sprays every time any fighting happens?

He is pretty graphic, but at the same time he never glorifies the violence. I think the gore adds to the gravity.

But there is a lot of spraying blood.

No not that but how he describes the Edur on sepik making mothers throw there babies into fire raping mothers and daughters in front of family. stuff like that i know its really at a minimal and if that is my only critism its not a bad thing. I actually like the graphic descriotions of combat especially one on one.

[eddie]

yeah the death thing is a bit of a pisser. it was really awfull ehn the bridge burnres died and i couldn't believe it when whiskyjack got it. but now, well who cares who dies. they'l just come back to life (or asend or some other nonsense) any way. it's getting as silly as the x-men.(why wont that bitch Jean Gray stay dead)

[STOUT]

Hedge is kinda silly how he can manifest things, can all bridgeburners do that? I mean all the dead BB manifesting cussers and droping them at once withouth worrying about them selves. they would be a walking manifesting Atom bomb

[Sucka27]

Not sure if someone has mentioned this but the one thing that i've wondered about when reading these books is...

If a being lives for 300,000 years and there is a chance that in battle or some other circumstance, that they will be killed....they would never make it 300,000 years.

For example, Tool. Although T'Lan Imass are immortal, they could be sent to oblivion, we saw this in MoI when the KCCM took out a bunch of them. Also with Rake and Kallor, they had battles with demons and other powerful characters. True, they are bad asses and excellent in battle, but all it takes is one lucky swing to take down Kallor, and Rake to meet one demon just tough enough. Ok, maybe i can believe Rake making it 300k but i'm not sure about the T'Lan Imass or Kallor. They both have sworn enemies and would have faced fatal situations many, many times.

All of this happened in the span of maybe 1-5 years. So if you risk death come close to death 3 times in 5 years, imagine how many times it would happen over 300,000. And at least one of those times should prove fatal, to avoid this would be an unimaginable beating of the odds. I mean 300,000 years is a LONG time. 3,000 maybe i could believe.

[Aptorian]

The Malazan books are describing a time in the world where everything is getting funky. The Pantheon is in an uproar, armies and empires are amassing, old beings are returning across the world. These aren't exactly the good old days.

On the other hand Wu is a pretty dangerous place and ascendants keep poping up and endless amounts of things keep digging them sleves out of the earth and such.

I don't think you should look at the few ascendants or powerplayers you mention there as exceptional. Remember there's an ascendant born every hour it seems. Not many survive but the exceedingly clever and talented do.

[dktorode]

I also doubt they been constantly in the thick of things for 300 000 years straight...
just cause they been around for that long doesnt mean a life of perpetual warfare...remember the imass where "recruited" by Kalenved.
So they were probably chilling in dust form for a while.

[tharinock]

also, to address the kallor thing, he was cursed to live forever without ascending. that kind of means that he won't really die much anytime soon. And remember, one lucky enough blow could kill anomander, but it is unlikely. for example, scabandari imprisoned silchas ruin, presumably because he couldn't actually kill him outright. killing draconean ascendants is DAMN HARD.