[Grief]

Gnaw, on 27 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 27 September 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

List so far:

Mal (mod)
Morgoth (can look @ balance)


1 Gnaw
2 Bubba
3 Hidden One
4 Mentalist
5 The Unfound
6 Tatts
7 Venge
8 Khell. If he's scurred, he can hide in my pocket.
9 Inane Babble
10 Messremb

Will play if we tease them enough:
Twelve
King Lear
Starling
Bliss

Will play if we need the numbers:
Shin
Tapper

Still thinks it's not addictive:

-Gredfallan Ale (depends on when)

Fixed.

Fix me right off the list why don't you? Ruuuude

[Mentalist]

Inane Babble, on 27 September 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Probably not a good idea to advertise stuff about the setup of the game like that Mal.

The less a player knows about the design of the game the better IMO. They get their role PM, maybe some hints in the intro but apart from that they shouldn't (and almost always don't WANT to) know more.

Which game is it that is being played, the super sirus one with no spam high posters only, or the spamfest alt-less brawl?

In for a serious high quality/quantity game

out for the altless brawl

why can`t we have a serious altless game?

[Mentalist]

Grief, on 28 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 27 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Alright so three factions of seven people each. Houses Life, Death and Chains are contesting the field. Roles as follows:

Killer - Champion of Life, Knight of Death, Knight of Chains

Healer - Weaver of Life, Spinner of Death, Cripple of Chains

Day Vigilante - Soldier of Life, Soldier of Death, The Unbound

Bulletproof (one-time only) - Priest of Life, Magi of Death, Reaver of Chains

Bodyguard - Herald of Life, Herald of Death, Herald of Chains

Guard - Builder of Life, Mason of Death, Leper of Chains

Symp (essentially roleless in this setup) - Whore of Life, Virgin of Death, Fool of Chains

Everybody knows the identity of their faction's killer and nothing else.

Thoughts?

Having everyone know the identity of their faction's killer strikes me as a bad idea for a few reasons. Normally in faction games there's some mechanic that gives people a starting point for trying to figure out the rest of their faction, which is a good thing, and having everyone know the killer is one way of doing it, but I don't think it's a very good one for this game. Firstly, it simplifies quite a few of the action choices way too much (say you're a healer - knowing a member of your faction basically takes away any aspect of decision-making involved in the role, nevermind that it's a key member of your faction). Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it reduces the need for on-thread attempts at signalling to your team. The more people are in the dark about their team, the more they need to do on thread. I think everyone knowing the killer is just too much information, it encourages cautious play because there's not a huge benefit from trying to signal to the rest of the faction - it's not very necessary - when you can be useful in lynches by protecting the leader as a priority and then try and figure out the rest of your team without really doing much, just by observing voting etc, which then gives the others factions less to go on. Basically, I think it puts people in a position where there's not really much pay off for taking risks, and where there's not much incentive to put much out there. Thirdly, it removes part of the fun of factions games, which is people accidentally playing against their own team mates and the rest of the faction trying to figure out why they're doing that.

I would have some members of the faction know each other, but not that many, and fewer should know the important roles (because then the people who do know the important roles have to trying to inform the rest of the team, which gives the other factions more to work with, but also potentially is a huge benefit for the team, so is a risk that can be worth taking). Some members should know no-one, especially the healer (or if they know anyone, it should be the symp, so that it's a useful fall-back heal if they can't figure out anyone else, but if they think they've figured out their leader, they'd be tempted to go for it rather than just always sticking with the certainty). The people with killing abilities should also have limited knowledge (having the vig know who his leader is takes away a huge part of him choosing to take action, the killer knowing one or two of his underlings probably isn't such a major deal in a game where he has lots of underlings to worry about, though you want to avoid people knowing too many others, or in certain relations - for example everyone knowing the person or two people above them - or it can be too easy to figure out the whole faction in a sort of chain reaction). Likewise, the guard knowing his own killer simplifies his role considerably. If he's pretty sure he's made a successful guard, then not being certain whether it's his own killer he's guarded or someone else's is much more interesting than him knowing who his leader is.

I think one of the hardest things to do in a faction game is to figure out how each member should fit into their faction, and who they should be aware of, but I think having everyone know the killer is a bit clumsy, and that other set ups would be more tense and would have more going on in-thread (which is especially important with so many roles going about, because sometimes these games can end up with it being that most of the interesting and important stuff seems to happen in conversations with Path-Shaper, which isn't great really).

The alternative to knowing the "leader" of a faction is having a chain--whereas the healer knows the killer, the day vig knows the healer, the BP knows the vig and so forth.

Those usually end up being spectacular implosions, but they usually are fun as hell to watch and play.

[Shinrei]

In for altless (serious or not). Out for everything else.

[Macros]

Gnaw, on 27 September 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Macros, on 27 September 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Whilst the lure of altless serious mafia is strong, the theres too much foreign food involved, I like my steak and chips

Is that Irish for "I'm afraid"?

Its English for I dislike faction games intensely

[Inane Babble]

Mentalist, on 28 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Inane Babble, on 27 September 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Probably not a good idea to advertise stuff about the setup of the game like that Mal.

The less a player knows about the design of the game the better IMO. They get their role PM, maybe some hints in the intro but apart from that they shouldn't (and almost always don't WANT to) know more.

Which game is it that is being played, the super sirus one with no spam high posters only, or the spamfest alt-less brawl?

In for a serious high quality/quantity game

out for the altless brawl

why can`t we have a serious altless game?

Malaclypse, on 26 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

You know what?

Morgy got me thinking and maybe to make it easier we can do it altless so ppl can spam all they like.

You should still lynch those that don't contribute in any meaningful way and you can be as prejudiced as you like

Also would mean it would be easier to fit it in alongside whatever other games are planned

The altless game was described as having no anti-spam rule, and allowing people to mess about so much that they should be lynched for it. That is not at all the "serious" game this thread started out as.

[Tapper]

Mentalist, on 28 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Grief, on 28 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 27 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Alright so three factions of seven people each. Houses Life, Death and Chains are contesting the field. Roles as follows:

Killer - Champion of Life, Knight of Death, Knight of Chains

Healer - Weaver of Life, Spinner of Death, Cripple of Chains

Day Vigilante - Soldier of Life, Soldier of Death, The Unbound

Bulletproof (one-time only) - Priest of Life, Magi of Death, Reaver of Chains

Bodyguard - Herald of Life, Herald of Death, Herald of Chains

Guard - Builder of Life, Mason of Death, Leper of Chains

Symp (essentially roleless in this setup) - Whore of Life, Virgin of Death, Fool of Chains

Everybody knows the identity of their faction's killer and nothing else.

Thoughts?

Having everyone know the identity of their faction's killer strikes me as a bad idea for a few reasons. Normally in faction games there's some mechanic that gives people a starting point for trying to figure out the rest of their faction, which is a good thing, and having everyone know the killer is one way of doing it, but I don't think it's a very good one for this game. Firstly, it simplifies quite a few of the action choices way too much (say you're a healer - knowing a member of your faction basically takes away any aspect of decision-making involved in the role, nevermind that it's a key member of your faction). Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it reduces the need for on-thread attempts at signalling to your team. The more people are in the dark about their team, the more they need to do on thread. I think everyone knowing the killer is just too much information, it encourages cautious play because there's not a huge benefit from trying to signal to the rest of the faction - it's not very necessary - when you can be useful in lynches by protecting the leader as a priority and then try and figure out the rest of your team without really doing much, just by observing voting etc, which then gives the others factions less to go on. Basically, I think it puts people in a position where there's not really much pay off for taking risks, and where there's not much incentive to put much out there. Thirdly, it removes part of the fun of factions games, which is people accidentally playing against their own team mates and the rest of the faction trying to figure out why they're doing that.

I would have some members of the faction know each other, but not that many, and fewer should know the important roles (because then the people who do know the important roles have to trying to inform the rest of the team, which gives the other factions more to work with, but also potentially is a huge benefit for the team, so is a risk that can be worth taking). Some members should know no-one, especially the healer (or if they know anyone, it should be the symp, so that it's a useful fall-back heal if they can't figure out anyone else, but if they think they've figured out their leader, they'd be tempted to go for it rather than just always sticking with the certainty). The people with killing abilities should also have limited knowledge (having the vig know who his leader is takes away a huge part of him choosing to take action, the killer knowing one or two of his underlings probably isn't such a major deal in a game where he has lots of underlings to worry about, though you want to avoid people knowing too many others, or in certain relations - for example everyone knowing the person or two people above them - or it can be too easy to figure out the whole faction in a sort of chain reaction). Likewise, the guard knowing his own killer simplifies his role considerably. If he's pretty sure he's made a successful guard, then not being certain whether it's his own killer he's guarded or someone else's is much more interesting than him knowing who his leader is.

I think one of the hardest things to do in a faction game is to figure out how each member should fit into their faction, and who they should be aware of, but I think having everyone know the killer is a bit clumsy, and that other set ups would be more tense and would have more going on in-thread (which is especially important with so many roles going about, because sometimes these games can end up with it being that most of the interesting and important stuff seems to happen in conversations with Path-Shaper, which isn't great really).

The alternative to knowing the "leader" of a faction is having a chain--whereas the healer knows the killer, the day vig knows the healer, the BP knows the vig and so forth.

Those usually end up being spectacular implosions, but they usually are fun as hell to watch and play.

I'd set it to:

rank 1: Healer, protects against kills + removes all poison tokens (knows rank 3) - Champion of Life, Knight of Death, Knight of Chains

rank 2: Killer (knows rank 1)- Weaver of Life, Spinner of Death, Cripple of Chains

rank 3: Poisoner Day Vigilante (2 tokens = death, knows rank 2) - Soldier of Life, Soldier of Death, The Unbound

rank 4: Guard Bulletproof (one-time only, knows rank 1) - Priest of Life, Magi of Death, Reaver of Chains

rank 5: Bodyguard (knows rank 1 and 4) - Herald of Life, Herald of Death, Herald of Chains

rank 6: Bullet proof (one time only, immune to poison, knows rank 5) - Builder of Life, Mason of Death, Leper of Chains

rank 7: Symp (knows rank 1, essentially roleless in this setup) - Whore of Life, Virgin of Death, Fool of Chains


Or remove the Killer, work with a set-up of Healer, Poisoner, Guard, Bullet Proof (one time), 3x roleless. Bullet proofs looking to draw kills/ poison tokens will be active, the roleless will need to be as well, if only to draw kills/lynches, and the other roles need to find one another. Makes for an active thread in which roles are meaningful and there's only 1 direct kill: the lynch.

Your initial set-up has a possibility for 6 kills plus a lynch in cycle 1, coupled with another 4 removals in cycle 2. With so many kills, not using the day vig, even with a risk of a collateral, is madness. The playing of the thread becomes relatively meaningless because the 1 lynch each day, which is not guaranteed to begin with, pales in comparison to the night phase.

Also, given the attendance over the past few months, 21 is not a good baseline. Design for 18 players, and be ready to add or subtract 3 players of the lowest rank to run it. If you end up with 16 or 19, add a solo faction serial killer. At 17/20, make that guy partnered.

[Gredfallan Ale]

Mentalist, on 27 September 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Potentially interested:
-Gredfallan Ale (depends on when)

Well, I need another shot, I guess.

In

[Gnaw]

Well damn, as long as everyone is pissing in the soup, I'm sure it will taste better with an addition from me:

Certain PMs get an extra line at the end. Khell is your faction. Khell is your class/rank.

So if Khell is a healer in House Decay, all the other Decay members would get "Khell is House Decay" and all the other healers would get "Khell is a healer".

That should add an evil little twist to it.

[Mentalist]

Gnaw, on 28 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Well damn, as long as everyone is pissing in the soup, I'm sure it will taste better with an addition from me:

Certain PMs get an extra line at the end. Khell is your faction. Khell is your class/rank.

So if Khell is a healer in House Decay, all the other Decay members would get "Khell is House Decay" and all the other healers would get "Khell is a healer".

That should add an evil little twist to it.

if you do that, you're basically pointing people at who's not in their faction. That makes things a bit too easy.

[Gnaw]

joke.

modify it to everyone gets told "khell is not in your faction". Even Khell's faction.

[Gredfallan Ale]

Gnaw, on 28 September 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

joke.

modify it to everyone gets told "khell is not in your faction". Even Khell's faction.

I thought Khell only did solo faction games, even if he has to eliminate the rest of his faction first.

[Gnaw]

Gredfallan Ale, on 28 September 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

I thought Khell only did solo faction games, even if he has to eliminate the rest of his faction first.

You are wise beyond your years oh Gred.

[Gnaw]

List so far:

Mal (mod)
Morgoth (can look @ balance)


1 Gnaw
2 Bubba
3 Hidden One
4 Mentalist
5 The Unfound
6 Tatts
7 Venge
8 Messremb
9 A Demon Llama!
10 Grief
11 Shin in for altless
12 Gredfallan Ale


Maybes:
Tapper. Gave constructive criticism; that counts as 'interested' at lease.
Khell: Maybe no longer exists?
Inane Babble. Having a crisis of something.

[Malaclypse]

Grief, on 28 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Having everyone know the identity of their faction's killer strikes me as a bad idea for a few reasons. Normally in faction games there's some mechanic that gives people a starting point for trying to figure out the rest of their faction, which is a good thing, and having everyone know the killer is one way of doing it, but I don't think it's a very good one for this game. Firstly, it simplifies quite a few of the action choices way too much (say you're a healer - knowing a member of your faction basically takes away any aspect of decision-making involved in the role, nevermind that it's a key member of your faction). Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it reduces the need for on-thread attempts at signalling to your team. The more people are in the dark about their team, the more they need to do on thread. I think everyone knowing the killer is just too much information, it encourages cautious play because there's not a huge benefit from trying to signal to the rest of the faction - it's not very necessary - when you can be useful in lynches by protecting the leader as a priority and then try and figure out the rest of your team without really doing much, just by observing voting etc, which then gives the others factions less to go on. Basically, I think it puts people in a position where there's not really much pay off for taking risks, and where there's not much incentive to put much out there. Thirdly, it removes part of the fun of factions games, which is people accidentally playing against their own team mates and the rest of the faction trying to figure out why they're doing that.

I would have some members of the faction know each other, but not that many, and fewer should know the important roles (because then the people who do know the important roles have to trying to inform the rest of the team, which gives the other factions more to work with, but also potentially is a huge benefit for the team, so is a risk that can be worth taking). Some members should know no-one, especially the healer (or if they know anyone, it should be the symp, so that it's a useful fall-back heal if they can't figure out anyone else, but if they think they've figured out their leader, they'd be tempted to go for it rather than just always sticking with the certainty). The people with killing abilities should also have limited knowledge (having the vig know who his leader is takes away a huge part of him choosing to take action, the killer knowing one or two of his underlings probably isn't such a major deal in a game where he has lots of underlings to worry about, though you want to avoid people knowing too many others, or in certain relations - for example everyone knowing the person or two people above them - or it can be too easy to figure out the whole faction in a sort of chain reaction). Likewise, the guard knowing his own killer simplifies his role considerably. If he's pretty sure he's made a successful guard, then not being certain whether it's his own killer he's guarded or someone else's is much more interesting than him knowing who his leader is.

I think one of the hardest things to do in a faction game is to figure out how each member should fit into their faction, and who they should be aware of, but I think having everyone know the killer is a bit clumsy, and that other set ups would be more tense and would have more going on in-thread (which is especially important with so many roles going about, because sometimes these games can end up with it being that most of the interesting and important stuff seems to happen in conversations with Path-Shaper, which isn't great really).

Thanks very much for your detailed thoughts I will reconsider and post something a bit more reasonable later today if time allows.

Mentalist, on 28 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Probably not a good idea to advertise stuff about the setup of the game like that Mal.

The less a player knows about the design of the game the better IMO. They get their role PM, maybe some hints in the intro but apart from that they shouldn't (and almost always don't WANT to) know more.

Which game is it that is being played, the super sirus one with no spam high posters only, or the spamfest alt-less brawl?

In for a serious high quality/quantity game

out for the altless brawl

OK, I think you're right. We'll have alts and we'll just have to work it in with the scheduled games. People will have to be mindful of not giving away their identities with obvious tells, and I don't know how accustomed people are to that being enforced? Anyway, serious game it is!

Tapper, on 28 September 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 28 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Grief, on 28 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Having everyone know the identity of their faction's killer strikes me as a bad idea for a few reasons. Normally in faction games there's some mechanic that gives people a starting point for trying to figure out the rest of their faction, which is a good thing, and having everyone know the killer is one way of doing it, but I don't think it's a very good one for this game. Firstly, it simplifies quite a few of the action choices way too much (say you're a healer - knowing a member of your faction basically takes away any aspect of decision-making involved in the role, nevermind that it's a key member of your faction). Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it reduces the need for on-thread attempts at signalling to your team. The more people are in the dark about their team, the more they need to do on thread. I think everyone knowing the killer is just too much information, it encourages cautious play because there's not a huge benefit from trying to signal to the rest of the faction - it's not very necessary - when you can be useful in lynches by protecting the leader as a priority and then try and figure out the rest of your team without really doing much, just by observing voting etc, which then gives the others factions less to go on. Basically, I think it puts people in a position where there's not really much pay off for taking risks, and where there's not much incentive to put much out there. Thirdly, it removes part of the fun of factions games, which is people accidentally playing against their own team mates and the rest of the faction trying to figure out why they're doing that.

I would have some members of the faction know each other, but not that many, and fewer should know the important roles (because then the people who do know the important roles have to trying to inform the rest of the team, which gives the other factions more to work with, but also potentially is a huge benefit for the team, so is a risk that can be worth taking). Some members should know no-one, especially the healer (or if they know anyone, it should be the symp, so that it's a useful fall-back heal if they can't figure out anyone else, but if they think they've figured out their leader, they'd be tempted to go for it rather than just always sticking with the certainty). The people with killing abilities should also have limited knowledge (having the vig know who his leader is takes away a huge part of him choosing to take action, the killer knowing one or two of his underlings probably isn't such a major deal in a game where he has lots of underlings to worry about, though you want to avoid people knowing too many others, or in certain relations - for example everyone knowing the person or two people above them - or it can be too easy to figure out the whole faction in a sort of chain reaction). Likewise, the guard knowing his own killer simplifies his role considerably. If he's pretty sure he's made a successful guard, then not being certain whether it's his own killer he's guarded or someone else's is much more interesting than him knowing who his leader is.

I think one of the hardest things to do in a faction game is to figure out how each member should fit into their faction, and who they should be aware of, but I think having everyone know the killer is a bit clumsy, and that other set ups would be more tense and would have more going on in-thread (which is especially important with so many roles going about, because sometimes these games can end up with it being that most of the interesting and important stuff seems to happen in conversations with Path-Shaper, which isn't great really).

The alternative to knowing the "leader" of a faction is having a chain--whereas the healer knows the killer, the day vig knows the healer, the BP knows the vig and so forth.

Those usually end up being spectacular implosions, but they usually are fun as hell to watch and play.

I'd set it to:

rank 1: Healer, protects against kills + removes all poison tokens (knows rank 3) - Champion of Life, Knight of Death, Knight of Chains

rank 2: Killer (knows rank 1)- Weaver of Life, Spinner of Death, Cripple of Chains

rank 3: Poisoner Day Vigilante (2 tokens = death, knows rank 2) - Soldier of Life, Soldier of Death, The Unbound

rank 4: Guard Bulletproof (one-time only, knows rank 1) - Priest of Life, Magi of Death, Reaver of Chains

rank 5: Bodyguard (knows rank 1 and 4) - Herald of Life, Herald of Death, Herald of Chains

rank 6: Bullet proof (one time only, immune to poison, knows rank 5) - Builder of Life, Mason of Death, Leper of Chains

rank 7: Symp (knows rank 1, essentially roleless in this setup) - Whore of Life, Virgin of Death, Fool of Chains


Or remove the Killer, work with a set-up of Healer, Poisoner, Guard, Bullet Proof (one time), 3x roleless. Bullet proofs looking to draw kills/ poison tokens will be active, the roleless will need to be as well, if only to draw kills/lynches, and the other roles need to find one another. Makes for an active thread in which roles are meaningful and there's only 1 direct kill: the lynch.

Your initial set-up has a possibility for 6 kills plus a lynch in cycle 1, coupled with another 4 removals in cycle 2. With so many kills, not using the day vig, even with a risk of a collateral, is madness. The playing of the thread becomes relatively meaningless because the 1 lynch each day, which is not guaranteed to begin with, pales in comparison to the night phase.

Also, given the attendance over the past few months, 21 is not a good baseline. Design for 18 players, and be ready to add or subtract 3 players of the lowest rank to run it. If you end up with 16 or 19, add a solo faction serial killer. At 17/20, make that guy partnered.

Thanks for this As above, I will have a look at the setup and certainly change it in some way(s) based on the advise I have received. I'll update the thread ASAP. I must admit to being a bit rusty as I haven't done this in years so please bear with me a while longer

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 29 September 2014 - 09:01 AM

[HiddenOne]

Inane Babble, on 27 September 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Probably not a good idea to advertise stuff about the setup of the game like that Mal.

The less a player knows about the design of the game the better IMO. They get their role PM, maybe some hints in the intro but apart from that they shouldn't (and almost always don't WANT to) know more.

Which game is it that is being played, the super sirus one with no spam high posters only, or the spamfest alt-less brawl?

In for a serious high quality/quantity game

out for the altless brawl

Don't think that the alt-less game will be any less serious or demanding than the alted ones.

[Morgoth]

In the Culture game I believe we solved the issue Grief raised by making the leader of each faction relatively weak, but left him the only player in the faction that knew the identity of the faction killer. All the other faction members knew only the leader.

[D'rek]

Is this the game that is running next, then? If so, I can change the SH password and send it to Mal so he can finalize his design in there, if desired.

[Inane Babble]

I think this was more of a test the waters thread rather than a sign ups one.

Aren't there a whole bunch of games already in the backlog, or did those fall through/get pushed back?

[Tapper]

Inane Babble, on 29 September 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I think this was more of a test the waters thread rather than a sign ups one.

Aren't there a whole bunch of games already in the backlog, or did those fall through/get pushed back?

I am not sure if Blend is around or on holiday (the Clash of Clans thread indicates the latter), but he has 2 games ready, I think?