Malazan Empire: Continuous read-through of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time - Malazan Empire

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Continuous read-through of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time Spoilers for all books, Spoilers unblocked and blatant

#341 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 01:47 PM

View PostAndorion, on 30 November 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

One thought I had after the final book: The Dark One is initially presented as a sort of Dark counterpart to the Creator. Present from creation, but sealed away etc. But after reading Rands battle with him, my own impression was more like he was a creature from another dimension/universe who was interfering through a hole in the fabric of reality. I was wondering if there had been any discussion regarding this.

Not a whole lot, but Werthead has posted a little about this on his blog because he read some of RJ's early notes. Brandon had read them too, and Brandon wrote this scene. I get the feeling that Brandon was not left a lot of detail on how this battle was supposed to go, so he tried to construct it as best he could from what RJ wrote in his notes and in the books. He used the hell out of the Mirror World visions in TGH, for example.

I have only read AMOL once so I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about in that battle that led you to believe the Dark One was an alien being. I will keep an eye out for it when I do a reread. Anyway, in RJ's very nascent notes on WoT, the Dark One (Sa'khan or Sa'kanh) and his minions were indeed from another universe, and they had been discovered by channelers who made contact with other worlds using the Power. Sa'khan's followers were called the Forsaken (and here RJ writes a note to himself: "get a good name for Sa'kanh's lieutenants"), and they were trying to escape a dying star/planet. This is who Lews Therin and the Companions fought, and they were either trying to seal him away from Randland or return him to his own world.

I'm pretty sure that RJ moved completely away from that idea and towards the yin/yang of the Creator and the Dark One, but I have noticed other instances of Brandon hearkening back to RJ's earliest notes in the way that he resolved things for which there were no later notes.

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#342 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:57 PM

View PostAndorion, on 29 November 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

The thing is that when you reacha certain stage in WoT, around book 10 you stop caring. Who belongs to which faction, who likes who, who is betraying who. It just seems like so much fluff. And of course the dresses. And the hair.



and the lesbians
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#343 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 11:58 AM

View PostMacros, on 30 November 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 29 November 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

The thing is that when you reacha certain stage in WoT, around book 10 you stop caring. Who belongs to which faction, who likes who, who is betraying who. It just seems like so much fluff. And of course the dresses. And the hair.



and the lesbians



Sniffed Macros loudly, smoothing his skirt with one hand and tugging at his braid with the other.
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#344 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:12 PM

Too little description on the skirt.
Fail

This post has been edited by Macros: 01 December 2014 - 07:13 PM

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#345 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 03:02 AM

View PostTerez, on 30 November 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 30 November 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

One thought I had after the final book: The Dark One is initially presented as a sort of Dark counterpart to the Creator. Present from creation, but sealed away etc. But after reading Rands battle with him, my own impression was more like he was a creature from another dimension/universe who was interfering through a hole in the fabric of reality. I was wondering if there had been any discussion regarding this.

Not a whole lot, but Werthead has posted a little about this on his blog because he read some of RJ's early notes. Brandon had read them too, and Brandon wrote this scene. I get the feeling that Brandon was not left a lot of detail on how this battle was supposed to go, so he tried to construct it as best he could from what RJ wrote in his notes and in the books. He used the hell out of the Mirror World visions in TGH, for example.

I have only read AMOL once so I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about in that battle that led you to believe the Dark One was an alien being. I will keep an eye out for it when I do a reread. Anyway, in RJ's very nascent notes on WoT, the Dark One (Sa'khan or Sa'kanh) and his minions were indeed from another universe, and they had been discovered by channelers who made contact with other worlds using the Power. Sa'khan's followers were called the Forsaken (and here RJ writes a note to himself: "get a good name for Sa'kanh's lieutenants"), and they were trying to escape a dying star/planet. This is who Lews Therin and the Companions fought, and they were either trying to seal him away from Randland or return him to his own world.

I'm pretty sure that RJ moved completely away from that idea and towards the yin/yang of the Creator and the Dark One, but I have noticed other instances of Brandon hearkening back to RJ's earliest notes in the way that he resolved things for which there were no later notes.


My idea comes from two sources:

One was how the Dark One was reaching through the Bore to affect the weather. What he essentially did was take one season - summer and amplify it unnaturally. When the Bowl of the Winds is used, we get a lot of rain and mainly snow. Winter returns with a vengeance. Now if the Dark One was truly as powerful as he was made out to be, then he could have taken this winter and amplified it a bit. An extreme winter could have caused as much devastation as an extreme summer. but he didnt. This got me thinking, that what if extreme heat is more congenial to the Dark One rather than cold? What if, wherever he is, its a rather hot place, and he was trying to convert his new conquest into something familiar? This got me thinking along other-dimensional lines.

Secondly Rands drawn out battle with the Dark One is less a battle and more of a philosophical debate. Each projects an ideal world and tries to pole holes inthe others vision. But towards the end, when Rand finally manipulates Moridin into using Callandor, forms a tripartite weace of Saidin Saidar and True Power, punches through the Bore and actually comes into physical contact with the Dark One, we get this:


Quote


Rand punched through the blackness there and created a conduit of light and darkness, turning the Dark One’s own essence upon him.
Rand felt the Dark One beyond, his immensity. Space, size, time… Rand understood how these things could be irrelevant now.
With a bellow— three Powers coursing through him, blood streaming down his side— the Dragon Reborn raised a hand of power and seized the Dark One through the Bore, like a man reaching through water to grab the prize at the river’s bottom.
The Dark One tried to pull back, but Rand’s claw was gloved by the True Power. The enemy could not taint saidin again. The Dark One tried to withdraw the True Power from Moridin, but the conduit flowed too freely, too powerfully to shut off now. Even for Shai’tan himself.
So it was that Rand used the Dark One’s own essence, channeled in its full strength. He held the Dark One tightly, like a dove in the grip of a hawk.
And light exploded from him...........

..........The seals crumbled. The Dark One burst free.
Rand held the Dark One tightly.
Filled with the Power, standing in a column of light, Rand pulled the Dark One into the Pattern. Only here was there time. Only here could the Shadow itself be killed.
The force in his hand, which was at once vast and yet tiny, trembled. Its screams were the sounds of planets grinding together.
A pitiful object. Suddenly, Rand felt as if he were holding not one of the primal forces of existence, but a squirming thing from the mud of the sheep pens.
YOU REALLY ARE NOTHING, Rand said, knowing the Dark One’s secrets completely. YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE GIVEN ME REST AS YOU PROMISED, FATHER OF LIES. YOU WOULD HAVE ENSLAVED ME AS YOU WOULD HAVE ENSLAVED THE OTHERS. YOU CANNOT GIVE OBLIVION. REST IS NOT YOURS. ONLY TORMENT.
The Dark One trembled in his grip.
YOU HORRIBLE, PITIFUL MITE, Rand said.
Rand was dying. His lifeblood flowed from him, and beyond that, the amount of the Powers he held would soon burn him away.
He held the Dark One in his hand. He began to squeeze, then stopped.
He knew all secrets. He could see what the Dark One had done. And Light, Rand understood. Much of what the Dark One had shown him was lies.
But the vision Rand himself had created—the one without the Dark One—was truth. If he did as he wished, he would leave men no better than the Dark One himself.
What a fool I have been.
Rand yelled, thrusting the Dark One back through the pit from where it had come. Rand pushed his arms to the side, grabbing twin pillars of saidar and saidin with his mind, coated with the True Power drawn through Moridin, who knelt on the floor, eyes open, so much power coursing through him he couldn’t even move.
Rand hurled the Powers forward with his mind and braided them together. Saidin and saidar at once, the True Power surrounding them and forming a shield on the Bore.
He wove something majestic, a pattern of interlaced saidar and saidin in
their pure forms. Not Fire, not Spirit, not Water, not Earth, not Air. Purity. Light itself. This didn’t repair, it didn’t patch, it forged anew.
With this new form of the Power, Rand pulled together the rent that had been made here long ago by foolish men.
He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy.
It never had been.


Now if the Dark One had been the Dark counterpart of the creator, he would have hardly been as powerless as this. Rand could hardly have held him in his hand and contemptuously called him a mite. Its as if at that moment Rand perceived the Dark Ones true nature, found him a lot weaker than imagined and then sealed the breach.
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#346 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 03:46 AM

Ah, that is rather more vague than I was imagining, which is not to suggest you led me astray. And it's still quite possibly inspired by RJ's early notes, since RJ apparently did not make too many notes on the nature of the Dark One after that early outline of the story; Brandon would have had nowhere else to go. But that's an assumption on my part; the collection of RJ's notes that I accessed was limited in some ways. RJ's final notes were not in it, i.e. whatever he might have written with a successor in mind. I don't think there was much of that, though; RJ was stubborn until the end was near, and it's hard to blame him. Most of his final notes are actually transcriptions of recordings they made of dictated scenes, answered questions, etc., because in the end it was his wish for it to be finished. The communications between Team Jordan regarding Brandon's work were also not included, with a couple of small exceptions which were not supposed to be there. :The Force:

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#347 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 10:54 AM

View PostTerez, on 29 November 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:


Of course, my relationship with COT might stem from the fact that I am a born skimmer. RJ's descriptions about surroundings and dresses never bothered me because I skimmed right over them and on to the interesting stuff. It's why I had to reread the series several times to be able to hang with the experts at Theoryland; RJ likes to bury important details in all that fluff.

But if you think COT is bad, try reading Charles Dickens, one of RJ's favorite writers. Dickens' whole career is COT-type writing, except less interesting stuff happens. My skimming skills don't work on Dickens because there is nothing interesting to skim to. Yet he is regarded as one of the most important writers in American history. Go figure.


So what I'm getting from this is that you didn't find COT to be a bad book because you simply skimmed all the bad parts? That's a strange argument to make.

As Hiddenone said, this strange Dickens tangent seems a little missplaced. I understand that you didn't like Great Expectations when you were younger, and Dickens is a controversial classic these days, but to argue that nothing happens in Dickens' books is patently absurd.
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#348 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 11:00 AM

It's hardly an uncommon opinion, even among 'smart' people, though I'm sure it's somewhat exaggerated, if not so exaggerated as the claim that nothing happens in COT. I have no desire to revisit Dickens to see how well my opinion holds up after 20 years. I skimmed the descriptions in COT pretty much like I did in every other WoT book, or any book for that matter. Some people think COT is particularly heavy on description, and who am I to argue, since I skim the stuff? I worded my comment carefully.

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#349 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 04:18 PM

doesn't skimming Jordans heavy descriptions leave you with about 20% of the original?
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#350 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 10:58 PM

No.

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#351 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 09:21 AM

Incidentally: Is there a pub in Jordania that doesn't have a hammered dulcimer player? Genuine question as I seem to recall every one did.
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#352 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 09:33 AM

View PostMaark, on 07 December 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Incidentally: Is there a pub in Jordania that doesn't have a hammered dulcimer player? Genuine question as I seem to recall every one did.

There were some that had no music at all.

The hammered dulcimer might seem like a noteworthy instrument in the modern era, but at one time they were pretty ubiquitous in Europe and in the Middle East. Nowadays even pianos in bars are rare because of electronic music, but before electronic music, most establishments had some kind of piano. Before pianos, there were other types of keyboard instruments, and before keyboard instruments, there were dulcimers, lutes, etc. Anything that could play chords to accompany a singer.

<---has degree in piano performance, studied keyboard lit and historical instruments

P.S.—RJ always said that the WoT world was basically 17th-18th century without gunpowder. Well, make that 17th-18th century without gunpowder or keyboard instruments.

This post has been edited by Terez: 07 December 2014 - 09:34 AM

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#353 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 01:43 PM

Every tavern had a barmaid that Matt fancied though
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#354 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 07:55 PM

Is there any particular reason why you are trolling this thread, Maccy, or do you just have nothing better to do?

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#355 User is offline   acesn8s 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 03:09 AM

I'm still waiting for an official pub sign for the Nine Horse Hitch...
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#356 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 07:31 AM

View PostTerez, on 07 December 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

View PostMaark, on 07 December 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Incidentally: Is there a pub in Jordania that doesn't have a hammered dulcimer player? Genuine question as I seem to recall every one did.

There were some that had no music at all.

The hammered dulcimer might seem like a noteworthy instrument in the modern era, but at one time they were pretty ubiquitous in Europe and in the Middle East. Nowadays even pianos in bars are rare because of electronic music, but before electronic music, most establishments had some kind of piano. Before pianos, there were other types of keyboard instruments, and before keyboard instruments, there were dulcimers, lutes, etc. Anything that could play chords to accompany a singer.

<---has degree in piano performance, studied keyboard lit and historical instruments

P.S.—RJ always said that the WoT world was basically 17th-18th century without gunpowder. Well, make that 17th-18th century without gunpowder or keyboard instruments.



Ah, excellent. I actually rather enjoy the sound of a dulcimer. Nice to see someone else with a degree in some form of music or other (mine was in technology).

At some stage I may book myself in for a rereard of the series, but it'll be a goodly while yet. Maybe 3-4 years odd, being that it took me over a year to read the series the first time.
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#357 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 08:13 AM

WoT is 10x as good the second time around. No other series has anywhere near as much foreshadowing.

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#358 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:33 AM

View PostTerez, on 07 December 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

Is there any particular reason why you are trolling this thread, Maccy, or do you just have nothing better to do?


Its my week off.
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#359 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 01:12 PM

I started to check one of these out from the library over the weekend, the first one w/ Sanderson at the helm, and I just couldn't do it. I was thinking that I might like to see how the series ends up, but then when I randomly opened the book, all I could see was Elayne admiring skirts and Egwene tugging braids & so forth.
HiddenOne. You son of a bitch. You slimy, skulking, low-posting scumbag. You knew it would come to this. Roundabout, maybe. Tortuous, certainly. But here we are, you and me again. I started the train on you so many many hours ago, and now I'm going to finish it. Die HO. Die. This is for last time, and this is for this game too. This is for all the people who died to your backstabbing, treacherous, "I sure don't know what's going on around here" filthy lying, deceitful ways. You son of a bitch. Whatever happens, this is justice. For me, this is justice. Vote HiddenOne Finally, I am at peace.
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#360 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 06:18 PM

Odds weren't in your favour to be fair
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