D, on 23 October 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:
Andorion, on 23 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:
My other main beef with RJ, and though this came through Nynaeve trying to teach the sea Folk, but its a pretty general beef:
In RJs world trust and co-operation are foreign words. The Aes Sedai, the Wise Ones,the Sea Folk, the Kin are all jealous and hostile of each other, and can only think how to subdue the other to ones authority and then humiliate them and dominate them. Relations are either hostile on equal levels, then equality breaks down and its domination/submission. All the characters come across as extraordinarily petty and narrow minded. Most conflicts are solved with one party exerting greater strength and having the other party beaten or made to do labour. No middle ground, no sense of give-and-take. And this same dynamic is steadily reflected in the internal dealings of each group as well. This is extraordinary especailly because its all happening in the era of the Dragon Reborn. His very existence proves Tarmon Gaidon is close, it can happen any day, week, month, or year. That battle decides whether these groups will even have a future. But instead of working together, compromising, making alliances, all I get is conflict, conflict, conflict. Moiraine was one of the few characters trying to get things done. Rand tries to force people to work together, but drives them apart more often than not. In spite of everything thats been said upthread about the problems of the Seanchan, I think that there formal existnce as a centralised, unified army gives them a big advantage over the faction-divided defenders.
I think this may have something to with Jordan's general worldview but in-world factors that contribute to producing distrust include that the nature of the One Power itself, giving as it does individuals incredible power over others, tends to build fear and suspicion both between channelers and non-channelers and between channelers themselves; Aes Sedai hierarchy, for instance, is heavily based on power and potential, e.g. time spent as a Novice and Accepted, and arguably that structure represents and acknowledgement that unless power is respected through deference to it that the more powerful channelers will simply violently impose themselves on the weaker. When it comes to group dynamics, this explains the hostility and suspicion between groups of channelers, especially between everyone else and the Aes Sedai, as givne that the Aes Sedai are the largest and most organised group, all the other groups fear being forced to submit to their rule. A second major factor in generating suspicion is the acknowledged fact that there are Darkfriends in all walks of life who might potentially betray the cause to the Shadow. These Darkfriends probably also do a lot of work in directly generating an atmosphere of suspicion and hostility by promoting conflict between different channeler groups (as well as also in non-channeler politics).
acesn8s, on 23 October 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:
While he doesn't go full-on John Norman, his relationships overall seem pretty sad.
In my mind I tried to justify the narrow view point of the major groups (Aes Sedai, Nobility, etc) in terms of the stereotypical philosophies that seemed to be typical a few centuries ago. In reality, I think Jordan got lost in the minutia. I think an editor who wasn't his wife might have been able to keep him on task and maybe saved us a book or two over the course of the series.
Macros, on 23 October 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:
To quote one great review
When Jordan was young 'his sisters must have held him down and poured lye down his pee hole'
His female characters a farcical, if that's how women and men really behaved to each other there would be no people
I don't have a problem with groups starting out distrustful, because there were valid reasons: Aes Sedai have always held themselves above the rest, the Aiel are isolated in the Waste, the Sea Folk have alwayys been at sea etc. My problem is that for the vast majority these attitudes don't change, don't evolve with circumstances. And this refusal to change is funny/irritating depending on your mood, until its almost farcical. The very presence of the Dragon Reborn means the last battle is close. Its kind of a big deal and it really doesn't matter if poeple are being polite to you or not if you just lose the battle.
What is more irritating is that RJ can make groups evolve, but chooses not to. For example the rivalry among the different national armies in Rand's camp is mentioned many a time. Its understandable, Especially between Illian and Tear. But Mat manages to turn a diverse group into a cohesive whole in his band.
An example of the realistic attitude that would be more plausible oddly enough comes from Cadsuane one of the most dominating women of the Aes Sedai:
Quote
“Verin, he can do whatever his heart desires, anything at all, as long as he lives to reach Tarmon Gai’don. And as long as I can be at his side long enough to make him learn how to laugh again, and cry.” Closing her eyes, she rubbed her temples with her fingertips and sighed. “He is turning into a stone, Verin, and if he doesn’t relearn that he’s human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing. Young Min told him he needs me; I got that much out of her without rousing her suspicions. But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won’t learn at all.”
She understands the very fundamentals. Rand has to reach Tarmon Gaidan, he has to be sane and normal until then. Saddling him with advisers, or trying to kidnap him, or forcefully bonding him won't work.
This is one aspect. The second aspect is the idea that if anyone disagrees with you, you can just have them beaten up. Frankly the White Tower and the Aiel disciplinary practices wouldn't be too out of step with those old-time Victorian boarding schools and their regular canings. This regular emphasis on corporal punishment is not just irritating, its baffling. These are adults. Why the hell should they even submit to it? Its not even like they are part of an institution like an army or a navy. Just random people beating up random people. There are numerous references to Aes Sedai having even royalty caned. Its insane. No actual power relation works that way. The existence of the Gray diplomatic Ajah is a farce existing in the same universe as this.
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