[Aptorian]

HUGE

SPOILERS

FOR

ASSAIL

Right, lets hear people's opinion.

Is Jethiss Anomander Rake reborn or is he simply a new Andii chosen for the role of Son of Darkness?

Let's have the final scene once again:

Quote

"And your memories?"
"With me once more."
"Then," Fisher asked, "Would you give us your name?"
"Mother Dark, offered a title."
"Fisher's breath caught. He spoke low, as if not daring to say the words aloud. "Son of Darkness..."
Jethiss gestured, inviting them to descend with him. "Now more of an honorific, in truth."

Then a paragraph later

Quote

"There was a terrible battle." Jethiss murmured aloud as they descended. "At the feet of a gate. I wandered lost for an unknown time. A woman's voice spoke to me from the Eternal Night. She told me I was needed to stand as I had before. But that the cost would be great. That i would have to lose myself anew." He pressed a hand to Fisher's shoulder. "And so I have. My old name no longer fits. I am Jethiss. As for the title... we shall see if I prove worthy."
"Where will you go?" Kyle asked, careful to give the man room as he walked at his left side.
"I would travel to Coral," Jethiss answered. "There's a modest barrow there I would pay my respects to a good friend. Many evenings we spent together playing Kef Tanar."

I find the details ambiguous. It doesn't sound like Jethiss has a full recollection of who is or where he comes from. The fact that he calls it an honorific now leads me to think that Jethiss is not Anomander Rake.

Further more, did Rake play Kef Tanar with the Serdomin? I only remember Spinnock doing this. Leading me to wonder if Spinnock is Jethiss. But Spinnock isn't dead is he?

EDIT: Further points.

Jethiss kept breaking his weapons, which made Fisher think of the title "Mane of Chaos".

Also Jethiss seemed to be a very strong mage. This how ever is not evidence that Jethiss is anomander. His role as "Son of Darkness" may simply grant him a lot of juice as he is in MDs favor.

This post has been edited by Demon of High House Decay: 02 September 2014 - 06:40 PM

[theocean]

Its been debated in the other threads under assail. Most will say its Spinnock. 90% probably.

Spinnock is the one who played seer face to face but he was using Rakes moves. So in a wa you could say both played against him. Rake asks at one point how the game was going and Spinock basically tells Rake he (rake) won again. So spinnock made the moves using rakes moves.


The borrows if you believe its Spinnock could be Seers. If you think its Rake it could be the redeemers. Depends on what you consider modest. And Seeing the things rake has a beautifully done borrow with the decotations of tellen magic could still be modest. maybe.

I hate the fact that if it is Spinnock that they would give him the same title. There is only one son of darkness and his name was rake.

This post has been edited by theocean: 02 September 2014 - 04:35 PM

[Drusas Achamian]

When and where did Spinnock Durav die? I don't recall a scene in which he died. He was cured by Korlat, after his fight with Kallor in 'Toll The Hounds' right?

There is a possibility that the one who is buried in the burrow (mentioned by Jethiss) is Whiskeyjack. Esslemont could have forgotten that Whiskeyjack was interned in Moon's Spawn. When Quick Ben and Paran entered the skykeep at the end of 'Memories Of Ice', Paran went through the names of the Bridgeburners interned in Moon's Spawn. Whiskeyjack's name was not mentioned. In that case, Jethiss could be Anomander. I recall that those two used to play a (then not named) game during the Pannion campaign.

This post has been edited by Drusas Achamian: 02 September 2014 - 08:46 PM

[Aptorian]

Interesting theory but it relies on a lot of mistakes on Esslemonts side.

As far as I remember Spinnock Durav has not been seen since TTH so he should be alive. Mind you, it wouldn't surprise me if they just killed him off page because fuck you nice people who liked Spinnock.

[theocean]

Drusas Achamian, on 02 September 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

When and where did Spinnock Durav die? I don't recall a scene in which he died. He was cured by Karlot, after his fight with Kallor in 'Toll The Hounds' right?

There is a possibility that the one who is buried in the burrow (mentioned by Jethiss) is Whiskeyjack. Esslemont could have forgotten that Whiskeyjack was interned in Moon's Spawn. When Quick Ben and Paran entered the skykeep at the end of
'Memories Of Ice', Paran went through the names of the Bridgeburners interned in Moon's Spawn. Whiskeyjack's name was not mentioned. In that case, Jethiss could be Anomander. I recall that those two used to play a (then not named) game during the Pannion campaign.

I dont believe we ever see spinncok die. Its just another assumption that can be made. There are only a few options it should be of who Jethiss is reborn. But to have Rake die and make that sacrifice and then come right back in a book or two seems like a way too easy way to get a legendary character back.


I wonder if Andarist could be another possibility... I dont know why

[worry]

Drusas Achamian, on 02 September 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

When and where did Spinnock Durav die? I don't recall a scene in which he died. He was cured by Karlot, after his fight with Kallor in 'Toll The Hounds' right?

I died. My head exploded and I'm dead now.

[Andorion]

theocean, on 02 September 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

Drusas Achamian, on 02 September 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

When and where did Spinnock Durav die? I don't recall a scene in which he died. He was cured by Karlot, after his fight with Kallor in 'Toll The Hounds' right?

There is a possibility that the one who is buried in the burrow (mentioned by Jethiss) is Whiskeyjack. Esslemont could have forgotten that Whiskeyjack was interned in Moon's Spawn. When Quick Ben and Paran entered the skykeep at the end of
'Memories Of Ice', Paran went through the names of the Bridgeburners interned in Moon's Spawn. Whiskeyjack's name was not mentioned. In that case, Jethiss could be Anomander. I recall that those two used to play a (then not named) game during the Pannion campaign.

I dont believe we ever see spinncok die. Its just another assumption that can be made. There are only a few options it should be of who Jethiss is reborn. But to have Rake die and make that sacrifice and then come right back in a book or two seems like a way too easy way to get a legendary character back.


I wonder if Andarist could be another possibility... I dont know why

Spinnock was last seen leading a charge of Andii into the Liosan at the Shore in TCG. He never dies on stage so to speak, but that was a brutal battle and he could have died. Also, I have said this before, but I don't understand why everybody assumes Jethiss is resurrected. he could have been comatose you know.

Regarding Whiskeyjack, that is a very fresh idea, and it hasn't been mentioned anywhere else in the debates that I know of. But I am pretty sure Whiskeyjack was interred in Moon's Spawn.

[theocean]

Andorion, on 03 September 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

theocean, on 02 September 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

Drusas Achamian, on 02 September 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

When and where did Spinnock Durav die? I don't recall a scene in which he died. He was cured by Karlot, after his fight with Kallor in 'Toll The Hounds' right?

There is a possibility that the one who is buried in the burrow (mentioned by Jethiss) is Whiskeyjack. Esslemont could have forgotten that Whiskeyjack was interned in Moon's Spawn. When Quick Ben and Paran entered the skykeep at the end of
'Memories Of Ice', Paran went through the names of the Bridgeburners interned in Moon's Spawn. Whiskeyjack's name was not mentioned. In that case, Jethiss could be Anomander. I recall that those two used to play a (then not named) game during the Pannion campaign.

I dont believe we ever see spinncok die. Its just another assumption that can be made. There are only a few options it should be of who Jethiss is reborn. But to have Rake die and make that sacrifice and then come right back in a book or two seems like a way too easy way to get a legendary character back.


I wonder if Andarist could be another possibility... I dont know why

Spinnock was last seen leading a charge of Andii into the Liosan at the Shore in TCG. He never dies on stage so to speak, but that was a brutal battle and he could have died. Also, I have said this before, but I don't understand why everybody assumes Jethiss is resurrected. he could have been comatose you know.

Regarding Whiskeyjack, that is a very fresh idea, and it hasn't been mentioned anywhere else in the debates that I know of. But I am pretty sure Whiskeyjack was interred in Moon's Spawn.

Its tough to be comatose in water though and not die.

[Abyss]

Oh, hey, one armed... trying to get through a gate.... it's obviously Dujek.


- Abyss, ...is totally fucking around...

[Aptorian]

Maybe Jethiss' soletaken form is Dujek Onearm.

[Vaddon Ra]

I would love it if it was actually a vague sneaky reference to Whiskeyjack and, therefore, is a reborn Rake... but I think the Kef Tanar reference is just too specific, being that the name of the game is used, and used (I think) for the first time specifically in Spinnock vs Seerdomin to develop their friendship.

Confusingly yes at no point do you see or hear that Spinnock is dead, although Jethiss is at no point in Assail said to have been dead and then born again... he has amnesia so we believed throughout that OHMIGOSHOHMIGOSHRAKERAKERAKE

therefore... he must have been dead right?

so how could it be Spinnock?

well... er, actually fool on us, at no point does Jethiss say, "oh hey Fish, I remember I was actually dead and now am REBORN."
he says he wandered and heard a voice (MD?) saying you must lose yourself... so maybe he was dead, or perhaps the big mess at Lightfall caused him into some kind of purgatory... its all speculation of course but Spinnock does not have to be dead for Jethiss to be Spinnock. He could have been lost in Kurald Galain and , due to trauma or whatever, from the battle (he is not actually heard from again in TCG after lightfall again is he?) and the death and being home at last...

man after thousands of years that could screw anyone up eh?

Also, just a thought Spinnock came at the end of the fight right? and reinforced the Watch and basically turned the tide. It didn't seem like the Andii who returned were, therefore, in any state of panic except to rush in a save who they could.

That's not to say he didn't fall, or didn't get swept up in the bleh between Liosann and Galain. Even so it would make sense for it to be Spinnock simply to answer that question... one that I now am ashamed I never asked even when reading TCG for the third time... Where is Spinnock?

I was too caught up in the Battle at the Spire and the heart of Kaminsod and Korabos...


Rake's story ended nicely... Spinnocks, in this regard, never did so it would be fitting, especially after all the times Rake had to play diplomat and send Spin in his place, for him to replace Son of Darkness. not as literal son, but in titled position...

Also

Kef Tanar

and his build. Spinnock even lifts bro... Rake didn't :PPPPP

[theocean]

Vaddon Ra, on 03 September 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

I would love it if it was actually a vague sneaky reference to Whiskeyjack and, therefore, is a reborn Rake... but I think the Kef Tanar reference is just too specific, being that the name of the game is used, and used (I think) for the first time specifically in Spinnock vs Seerdomin to develop their friendship.

Confusingly yes at no point do you see or hear that Spinnock is dead, although Jethiss is at no point in Assail said to have been dead and then born again... he has amnesia so we believed throughout that OHMIGOSHOHMIGOSHRAKERAKERAKE

therefore... he must have been dead right?

so how could it be Spinnock?

well... er, actually fool on us, at no point does Jethiss say, "oh hey Fish, I remember I was actually dead and now am REBORN."
he says he wandered and heard a voice (MD?) saying you must lose yourself... so maybe he was dead, or perhaps the big mess at Lightfall caused him into some kind of purgatory... its all speculation of course but Spinnock does not have to be dead for Jethiss to be Spinnock. He could have been lost in Kurald Galain and , due to trauma or whatever, from the battle (he is not actually heard from again in TCG after lightfall again is he?) and the death and being home at last...

man after thousands of years that could screw anyone up eh?

Also, just a thought Spinnock came at the end of the fight right? and reinforced the Watch and basically turned the tide. It didn't seem like the Andii who returned were, therefore, in any state of panic except to rush in a save who they could.

That's not to say he didn't fall, or didn't get swept up in the bleh between Liosann and Galain. Even so it would make sense for it to be Spinnock simply to answer that question... one that I now am ashamed I never asked even when reading TCG for the third time... Where is Spinnock?

I was too caught up in the Battle at the Spire and the heart of Kaminsod and Korabos...


Rake's story ended nicely... Spinnocks, in this regard, never did so it would be fitting, especially after all the times Rake had to play diplomat and send Spin in his place, for him to replace Son of Darkness. not as literal son, but in titled position...

Also

Kef Tanar

and his build. Spinnock even lifts bro... Rake didn't :PPPPP

the game though was spinnock playing as rake, or using Rakes moves. I agree with the its probably Spinnock crowd, but the game playing can be manipulated into being Spin or Rake.

[Randomander]

Reading through these comments it seems that most people are on board with Jethiss being Spinnock and thats my opinion as well. I think the battle in front of the "gate" was definitely the Liosan/Galain border fight, the friend's burrow was definitely seerdomin, and the title Son of Darkness is simply a title awarded by Mother Darkness to a Tiste Andii who she sees fit, as we read in Forge of Darkness (Anomander was simply the first Son of Darkness, Andarist the second and SIlchas Ruin the third).

I think the best arguments for these would be that although the "terrible battle at the feet of the gate" could depict Anomander's trip into Dragnipur, the tone of Jethiss in making that remark made it seem as though he had participated in the battle in some harrowing and gruesome way, where as Anomander simply showed up and ended the battle without actually taking part in the fighting. Another thing would be the absence of Spinnock at the end of the book where the remaining populace of tiste showed up for the final convergence in TCG. He was a character of note, and while other main tiste Andii were present (Korlat, Nimander, etc.) Spinnock was nowhere to be found.

The second point would be that although some could, at a stretch, say that Anomander could have considered Seer Domin a friend through the games Spinnock played with his tactic, it would be even more of a stretch to say that Anomander Rake, Mane of Chaos, First Son of Darkness' first thought upon rebirth would be to seek out the burrow of a man he had never personally met before. It was kind of a defining characteristic in the series that the only friend he had made in a very very long time was Whiskeyjack, who was undoubtedly interred into Moon's Spawn with the rest of the bridge burners that died in Coral.

Lastly, and what really makes it for me, is that Anomander Rake's death was so perfect and well written that I would hate the idea of SE or ICE spoiling it by bringing him back like this. It would seem like a cop-out to me, because Rake's storyline was my favorite in the series and had a sense of finality / completeness to it in its closing.

These are my thoughts, hope maybe they shed some light for people still on the fence.

Edit: Im pretty sure that it was said in Forge that Sons of Darkness were awarded powers by Mother Dark akin to sorcery, so that could explain how Spinnock who had not been a mage before, was now a bamf with serious magic skills

This post has been edited by Randomander: 04 September 2014 - 06:45 PM

[Zaloopa]

Didn't Spinnock have red hair, while Jethiss has black hair with some silver streaks in it? So if it really is Spinnock then the real question is: Why did MD feel the need to dye his hair? These are the kinds of questions we should be seeking answers to people!

[Aptorian]

I am too lazy to find my copy of FOD but was Anomander Rakes hair white before the Andii recieved the Gift of Darkness? Maybe it is a power thing. Or maybe Chaos made his hair white?

Chaos would be strange though, since MD despises chaos and Jethiss is a product of her plans.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

This be from FoD, Ch. 15:

Quote

Kellaras stood near the door, his eyes on the magnificent weapon that Hust Henarald had unwrapped. It seemed to divide the table it rested on, as if moments from splitting the world in half. Lord Anomander, his face hooded as if in shadow, made no move to reach for the sword.
Kellaras could see his commander – the man he had always known – through the midnight pitch of his skin, and the long hair that had been black and was now silver, the hue of polished iron, yet capable of trapping every colour in its strands. The glow of the lanternlight was gold deepening to red, rippling like water as Anomander slowly leaned forward. The shadows within it were blue, on the very edge of inky black, and the way the hair fell reminded Kellaras of rain, or tears. He still struggled to comprehend this transformation.

Put it on the record.

Here is an image of polished iron, just so we can all see what it looks like. Gather round, kids. Timmy, sit down in front so little Susie can see. Thank you...




Howver, if someone can come back to life, I would assume they can change the color of their hair too. Also, lets think of other times when characters got healed, body parts replaced. Tehol has a new eye that wasn't his. Hetan's feet are from someone else. Perhaps Spinnock's soul was placed in a different body. Who knows. I don't really think the details are all that important. What I think is awesome, though, is that ICE has written bonafide enigma that could really go either way, and the mystery of the whole thing is brilliant, even if just on Troll level.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 05 September 2014 - 02:35 PM

[Aptorian]

My point was that I think the silver hair is a trait of the Son of Darkness.

Mal got really mad at me one time because I claimed that Rake and his offspring are the only Andii who don't have black hair, Something that I have still haven't seen evidence to the contrary off. All Andii's seem to have black hair, some have red or similar tints to the hair, but it is black.

Given that Rakes hair chained to all white after the gift, I think the hair is a trait of the titular Son of Darkness. Jethiss didn't just return from death. Who ever he is, he is a tool that Mother Dark has created for her purposes.

EDIT: That is a retcon by the way. Erikson stated in an interview long ago that he regretted giving Rake white hair. It was just a fantasy idea that somehow turned hyper generic.

This post has been edited by Demon of High House Decay: 05 September 2014 - 02:51 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Demon of High House Decay, on 05 September 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

My point was that I think the silver hair is a trait of the Son of Darkness.

I understand, and I completely agree. Though, even if it isn't an actual trait of the be-titled, its a great literary way to draw a parallel between the two, as far as the title of 'Son of Darkness' is concerned.

Also, the reddish tints could just imply some distant or even recent interbreeding with other species, like the Thel Akai or Dogrunners. Gizzin Farl has red hair, I think (it's described as "fiery blood" when the sun shone through it) and Rint called him Thel-Akai halfblood.

To me, all that stuff is just world-building though. Little details that help set the scene and distinguish the players, while also implying a history that existed long before.

[Hetan]

Demon of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Interesting theory but it relies on a lot of mistakes on Esslemonts side.

It wouldn't be the first time, let's be honest. I don't intend to sound mean here - both authors have a lot of stuff to keep track of so shit happens

Rake's hair turned white after he received the blessing of MD. However T'riss said to him before he went in to see MD "Night will claim your skin.....But I will make visible the defiance within you, as a gift", and once he had seen MD, Emral "gasped upon seeing not the ebon hue of his skin, but the silver sheen of his hair". Which suggests this was how T'riss had marked him, which is followed up by MD sighing and saying that he ever troubled her.

Spinnock does not die on camera but it is suggested that he did die at the gate because Korlat has a pebble in her pouch for him, along with one for Orfantal, Whiskeyjack and I can't remember who else, but will edit once I find the reference. He played Kef Tanar with Rake and with Seerdomin.

So if Spinnock died at the gate, and if Jethis is AR and wants to visit the barrow of a friend he played Kef Tanar with, the other Andii would have had to have then taken Spinnock's body to Coral and errect a barrow for him there.
If Jethis is Spinnock then there's a few things that don't add up. Simples.

Edit to add - Korlat's pebbles were for Anomander, Orfantal, Whiskeyjack and Spinnock. It's not definitive that they are all dead of course, they are held for the people she loved.

This post has been edited by Hetan (Also Actually Probably Mal): 05 September 2014 - 06:32 PM

[Randomander]

Demon of High House Decay, on 05 September 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

My point was that I think the silver hair is a trait of the Son of Darkness.

Mal got really mad at me one time because I claimed that Rake and his offspring are the only Andii who don't have black hair, Something that I have still haven't seen evidence to the contrary off. All Andii's seem to have black hair, some have red or similar tints to the hair, but it is black.

Given that Rakes hair chained to all white after the gift, I think the hair is a trait of the titular Son of Darkness. Jethiss didn't just return from death. Who ever he is, he is a tool that Mother Dark has created for her purposes.

EDIT: That is a retcon by the way. Erikson stated in an interview long ago that he regretted giving Rake white hair. It was just a fantasy idea that somehow turned hyper generic.

"Night will claim your skin. Before your eyes, darkness will be revealed. But i will make visible the defiance within you as a gift." - T'riss to Anomander just before he entered MD's chamber and was transformed
"When Emral looked to Anomander, however, she gasped upon seeing not the ebon hue of his skin, but the silver sheen of his hair" - High priestesses reaction to seeing his hair immediately post transformation
"Mother Dark sighed. 'You ever trouble me First Son. One day i shall tell you of your mother.'" - MD to Anomander immediately after transformation

So his hair was more a gift from T'riss as a reminder to all that although he gave himself willingly to MD, he's still his own man with his own convictions and will not bend to anothers will if he feels it contradicts his nature - at least thats my take.

Also to elaborate on the Son of Darkness title,

• "He would be schooled by the Sons of Darkness, as one of their retinue" - Nerys speaking of Orfantal who was to go join house Purake
• "And though I am now elevated to First Son of Darkness, I will not stand alone" - Anomander to his bros

So basically Son of Darkness is a title MD gives to her loyal followers i guess, and First Son is an honor that only Anomander has ever received. As we all know neither Andarist nor Silchas' hair turned silver like Anomanders though they both had interesting effects upon turning. I don't know how or why but I guess the personality of those of power or character is reflected in their transformation somewhat

This post has been edited by Randomander: 05 September 2014 - 06:25 PM