[Andorion]

Regarding Cold Days:

Spoiler

I think the Outsiders already have a foothold. Remember an Outsider stalked Harry all those years ago when he ran away from his original master. He encounters another one in Chicago. Plus the Outsiders already have enough influence to contaminate many poeple including heavy hitters like Maeve. The Demonreach victory was ver important but it was more of a defensive victory than an offensive one.

Frankly you are right about Harry not looking for powerups. What Harry did do, before Changes blew everything up was find ways to make his own power more effective. Hence his shield bracelet, his rings, his gun etc. What he did not do was go around hunting objects of power, and the fact that he didn't I think says something about his character. When we first encounter Harry, he is a kind of happy-go-lucky wizard-for-hire, happy with his tiny apartment, his cat and his joke of a car. What he basically wants to do is help people with his skills and pay the bills in the process. Then things start happening to him, and note carefully most of the stuff in the books is fairly episodic. Harry notices that hings are getting intense and he starts accentuating his abilities, but in a rather limited manner. Now, here, I think is where many readers have a problem. If you are going to up your game, why not take it up several levels? Again the answer is..... Harry. I think Harry, fundamentally just wanted all the shit to stop so he could go back to his previous life. So basically this is denial. And the exact moment this denial vanishes is Changes.

Spoiler

When he gets the phone call about his daughter, he now knows his life is irreversibly changed.

He cannot go back. Ever. But there remains, a nostalgia, an attraction to what he is leaving behind. I dont have the books at hand right now, but go back and read the section

Spoiler

where his apartment has been torched, his stuff lost, his car wrecked.

Theres a bit of inner monologue there as he accepts his past is gone, and how much that hurt him.


So, when everybody talks about how Harry should be planning, plotting, ramping up weapons, new tactics, they miss the point. He isn't that type of a guy. He is not a coolly calculating Marconi, or even a Murphy or a Thomas.


Of course this raises the issue that then such a half-prepared, idiot should not have survived the stuff that was thrown at him. And her eI have a crazy theory.


Over the last decade and a half or so, the mainstream in good fantasy has increasingly become the dark-gritty style, with deeply flawed characters and multiple shades of grey. In books like Richard Morgans A Land Fit For Heroes, you actually ask yourself if the protagonist is actually worthy of your support. Essentially the trope of the virtuous hero on a white horse has been conclusively subverted. And we are readers of Malazan. We know all about subverting tropes. Now, what if Jim Butcher had some subversion of his own on his mind? What if he decided to subvert the gritty hero with a retro hero? So we have Dresden, who with all his faults is fundamentally a really good chap. He loves kids and small animals. He is chivalrous towards women. You wont catch him making huge plans like say, Rake, but he wins, coz he is good and when he gets into a righteous rage his power rises. So, what if Butcher, through Dresden is having a little laugh at current fantasy?


This is my own crazy theory and it fits the definition of half-assed beautifully. But what do you think?


As for the number of books, I once heard 23. But this info may be outdated/wrong.

[D'rek]

Can you guys please stop talking about Skin Game in spoiler boxes that only say Changes/Ghost Story/Cold Days?!

If you're going to talk about Skin Game, put Skin Game in brackets above the spoiler box, too!!!

[Andorion]

D, on 02 December 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Can you guys please stop talking about Skin Game in spoiler boxes that only say Changes/Ghost Story/Cold Days?!

If you're going to talk about Skin Game, put Skin Game in brackets above the spoiler box, too!!!

I was actually wondering, that since everybody on this thread seems to have read all the books, could we just stop Spoiler coding everything and put a warning in the subtitle about blatant spoilers instead?

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 02 December 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

D, on 02 December 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Can you guys please stop talking about Skin Game in spoiler boxes that only say Changes/Ghost Story/Cold Days?!

If you're going to talk about Skin Game, put Skin Game in brackets above the spoiler box, too!!!

I was actually wondering, that since everybody on this thread seems to have read all the books, could we just stop Spoiler coding everything and put a warning in the subtitle about blatant spoilers instead?

I thought it was pretty clear which posts were moving beyond COLD but i'll update the topic and throw some overt warnings in.

Sorry if you were spoiled Drek. If it helps, we were lying. All of us.

[Abyss]

WARNING SPOILERS SPOILERS

FROM HERE ON

SPOILERS


ALL DRESDEN BOOKS SPOILERS



UNBLOCKED



UNCENSORED

UNMONITORED

UNRESTRAINED

UNDRESSED

UNDENIABLE


SPOILERS


SPOILERS

[Saitama]

Andorion, on 02 December 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Of course this raises the issue that then such a half-prepared, idiot should not have survived the stuff that was thrown at him.

That, and it makes all those millenia-old monster schemers seem incredibly incompetent.

Quote

So we have Dresden, who with all his faults is fundamentally a really good chap. He loves kids and small animals. He is chivalrous towards women. You wont catch him making huge plans like say, Rake, but he wins, coz he is good and when he gets into a righteous rage his power rises.

...he already has a trenchcoat, with his power of pop culture references that go unnoticed by the 'normals', all he needs is a fedora and a neckbeard for the full costume

Where you see subversion, I see pandering to a certain type of audience - Harry is so cool that even when he fucks up, he comes on top anyway. Personally, I think that Harry is a really obvious Escapist Character. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it may be just that I prefer more intelectual characters as my escapist characters

He does get somewhat better in the last 2-3 novels, though.

[Tiste Simeon]

Characters so intellectual they can even spell intellectual properly!

[Saitama]

Well, what did you expect? That's why they're escapist characters. What would be the point of fantasizing about being dumber than I already am?

[worry]

I can think of one thing.

[Abyss]

Saitama, on 05 December 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

...

Where you see subversion, I see pandering to a certain type of audience - Harry is so cool that even when he fucks up, he comes on top anyway. Personally, I think that Harry is a really obvious Escapist Character. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it may be just that I prefer more intelectual characters as my escapist characters

He does get somewhat better in the last 2-3 novels, though.

WARNING WARNING WARNING TV TROPES LINKWARNING DANGER HOURS OF YOUR LIFE GONELINKS SO MANY MANY LINKS WARNING TV TROPESWARNING WARNIoooooo the Buffy page....!!!

[Tiste Simeon]

Saitama, on 05 December 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

Well, what did you expect? That's why they're escapist characters. What would be the point of fantasizing about being dumber than I already am?

Haha I know what you mean - it's why I like my characters to be good looking!!

Oh...

[Saitama]

Tiste Simeon, on 06 December 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Haha I know what you mean - it's why I like my characters to be good looking!!

Oh...

Well, look at it this way. If we apply a little bit of reverse psychology-ish mumbo jumbo, if we don't care to identify with someone (somewhat objectively) cool, it must be because we already have obtained similar traits of character.
I mean, awesome people aren't obsessed with being awesome.
So in my case, I must not care about identifying with Dresden because I'm already really cool, incredibly powerful dude with tons of hot chicks hitting on me, right? Right??

[Tiste Simeon]

Saitama, on 06 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 06 December 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Haha I know what you mean - it's why I like my characters to be good looking!!

Oh...

Well, look at it this way. If we apply a little bit of reverse psychology-ish mumbo jumbo, if we don't care to identify with someone (somewhat objectively) cool, it must be because we already have obtained similar traits of character.
I mean, awesome people aren't obsessed with being awesome.
So in my case, I must not care about identifying with Dresden because I'm already really cool, incredibly powerful dude with tons of hot chicks hitting on me, right? Right??

I AGREE WITH THIS GUY

[HoosierDaddy]

I love steak and asparagus with a side-salad for dinner. I want to digest it and taste each bit, a little like Erikson.

But...sometimes I want popcorn. Dresden is the best popcorn.

[Nicodimas]

HoosierDaddy, on 06 December 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I love steak and asparagus with a side-salad for dinner. I want to digest it and taste each bit, a little like Erikson.

But...sometimes I want popcorn. Dresden is the best popcorn.

This is probably the best statement about fantasy. Sci-fi. Different tastes. This make each person categorically unique and readable!.
If you as a person go about not enjoying..say humor and analyze the stupid F out of it..its not fun. Have fun. dont be go hyper analyzing....it

I want people like Martin and.... Erikson.

As much as...i like..

Pierce Brown...and Butcher

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 23 March 2015 - 04:47 AM

[Tapper]

reading Skin Game.

It is the first time in close to three years that I pick up a Dresden File.
Unfortunately, up until now (the vault fight scene) I am disappointed. Rather than a nose full of the Dresden-cocaine that I remember, I only smell the sweaty armpits of Gary Stu.
Dresden's lack of mid- and long-term vision is grating. In addition to that, the heist plot is wafer-thin, its reveals were hardly surprising so far and the jokes aren't very funny so far (special mention to Parkour for being especially annoying).

The Deirdre thing was not a surprise.
In the Odessey, Odysseus needed a sacrifice to speak to Tiresias. When Nico mentioned to Binder that he and Grey were the likeliest to get out of the Vault alive, omitting Deirdre, the apple in his eye, 1 and 1 was 2 pretty quickly. It did help that Tessa was sent to Iran yet was present in Chicago and intent on sabotaging Nic's heist.

Likewise, Hades being in on the heist through Mab (although I never expected him being capable of slowing time - seriously, that's a bastard of a power). I do like Hades' explanation that his Vault is an armory intended to be raided and equip the smart and powerful in preparation for the end-times, though.

There were too many mentions of cards close to the chest to there not being an ace up the sleeve, and Grey made way too much sense since he went into the Vault and seemed the only true mercenary without affiliations, just like Ascher (being hot and capable) was a female foil who seemed to sway towards Harry's side, not in the least because they got along. See below for a bit of ranting on that subject.

In the over-arching plot, I still really don't understand what Harry's issue with Mab is. She has been fairly patient with him, backed him on occassion and was open to bargains. She keeps him in the dark, yes - but that is only because Dresden is a specialist in turning long term plans upside down for short term personal gains, all the while racking up debts with other entities of power.
That aside, he keeps black-and-whiting the Winter Sidhe, continuously portrays Mab's ruthlessness as evil, consistently seeks to provoke and challenge her while underestimating her capabilities and mistrusting her despite knowing her prime task is to rule and strengthen the Winter Sidhe so they can keep the Outsiders out.
It's doubly puzzling given the fact that being with the Sidhe means he's actually best placed to fight the Outsiders when they come.

What Skin Game really made me realise though, is, is how Butcher uses female foils.... badly.

Spoiler

I am not talking about women in general, considering Harry is a chauvinist disguised as an old-fashioned gentleman who considers every woman a dainty flower and for whom the best compliment is trusting a lady to hold her own like one of the guys.

It is just that as soon as a woman in the DF is described as giving Dresden a hard-on as well as being open to the suggestion of wild monkey sex, you just know she's probably a baddie or at the least ambiguous (Ascher in SG is of course a baddie, Mab being the evilish boss-lady who has weird mental sexy times broadcasted everywhere when she makes Harry Knight, Lara Raithe being female top dog and - of course - a sex vampire). It gets tiresome.

"Good girls" can be hot, but are always first and foremost allowing Harry to be focused on the job at hand and not talking about mutual feelings until after a very long time (Susan and Karrin) one of the guys (Karrin and Andi), daughter figures that are looking up to Dresden and/or putting aside whatever they're doing when he needs them (Molly).

As for the Grail: in Indiana Jones it is to give eternal life.
In the Arthurian saga, it is mostly a vessel of purity that can only be seen by the worthy, and in the Welsh versions, it is a horn of plenty. Not sure what Butcher plans to do here.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 30 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

reading Skin Game.
...
The Deirdre thing was not a surprise...

You read Dresden for wild crazy did not see that coming surprises? Really?
I mean, they happen... For me it was the revelation re who actually shot Harry, back in GS.... but before that.... not much springs to mind. And i'm totally cool with that, i don't read the dresdencrack for it's mindfuckery.


When was the last time this series hit you with something you wholly, utterly, DID NOT see that coming?

Quote

...I still really don't understand what Harry's issue with Mab is. She has been fairly patient with him, backed him on occassion and was open to bargains. She keeps him in the dark, yes - but that is only because Dresden is a specialist in turning long term plans upside down for short term personal gains, all the while racking up debts with other entities of power. ...

You do remember the previous Winter Knight, yes? And what happened to him?
Also, virtually every Winter Sidhe Harry has dealt with has been a complete asshat. Mab has near zero compassion or humanity, and even where their interests are the same, Harry won't trust her to not sacrifice innocents to get what she wants.

Quote

What Skin Game really made me realise though, is, is how Butcher uses female foils.... badly...

This subject is not new and i can't even really argue with anyone about it even if i disagree, because it's a perfectly valid way to interpret what Butcher does with his cast.


But Murphy is awesome, Molly's had a brilliant character storyline to date, Mab is a fascinating character, Harry's mom is an enigma, Lash was interesting, Lara's a great baddie.... i could go on, but my underlying point is that i like Butcher's female cast and how he writes them. It's not his strongest writing, but it holds my attention for the most part without the sort of eye-rolling you seem to experience and other authors trigger for me.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 30 June 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Tapper, on 30 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

...I still really don't understand what Harry's issue with Mab is. She has been fairly patient with him, backed him on occassion and was open to bargains. She keeps him in the dark, yes - but that is only because Dresden is a specialist in turning long term plans upside down for short term personal gains, all the while racking up debts with other entities of power. ...

You do remember the previous Winter Knight, yes? And what happened to him?
Also, virtually every Winter Sidhe Harry has dealt with has been a complete asshat. Mab has near zero compassion or humanity, and even where their interests are the same, Harry won't trust her to not sacrifice innocents to get what she wants.

This. 100%. Mab is a terrible creature who has shown herself to be capable of horrible psychological and physical damage to those around her. I mean the old Winter Knight was just the tip of the iceberg.

[worry]

Mab is a slaver. It takes no wrangling whatsoever, in story or from reader, to think negatively of her. Harry owes her nothing.

In terms of Harry (and given the commutative property of wish fulfillment, Butcher) being level 1 fedora chauvinists, yah it's a thing and yah it sucks when it infiltrates the story (the short story in Dangerous Women, despite being pretty good otherwise, was dripping with it). At level 1 I can live with it -- I don't sense at all that Butcher sympathizes with the "make me a sandwich" crowd even a little bit -- but I do think you're absolutely right that he's a bit retrograde on norms.

[Abyss]

It is just old skoole chivalry tho?He doesn't disrespect women, but he's stuck with a notion of them needing to be rescued. Sometimes.