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Growing irritations w Dresden series Spoilers ALL BOOKS SPOILERS

#141 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 02:38 PM

View PostMalaclypse, on 18 September 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

I bought a load of the Dresden books for a holiday in Turkey and was ultimately disappointed - formulaic much? Dresden just barely survives, just baaaarely coaxes that extra little bit of power or gets an extremely timely helping hand from whoever he's hanging out with at the time? And if worse comes to worst, he just gets angry and all of a sudden wins!

Weaksauce, sorry but that's my opinion.


An overdose of dresdencrack leads inevitably to a crash.
I binge read the first few. Enjoyed 1-3 because they steadily improve, but GRAVE PERIL is my least favorite likely because i was semi-bored. Took an extended break, then loved SUMMER and MASKS but again, liked BLOOD less because i was a bit overread. From DEAD BEAT on it's been one a year, so no issues, but i am not blind to the formulaic elements for the first few books at least, and that reading 'too many' in one burst can be offputting.

But as a glorious yearly dose... oh, i don't think much comes close.

Btw, this...

Quote

And if worse comes to worst, he just gets angry and all of a sudden wins!


...doesn't apply to every book by a long shot.

Some, yes, and i can't/ won't break down how he beats the big bad in each book, but to grab a few examples, in FOOL MOON he wins by working with Marcone despite their enmity, in SUMMER KNIGHT he wins by being clever enough to have Toot and The Pizza Fae in reserve, and in DEAD BEAT he outsmarts the necromancers, not outpowers.

As far as i can remember, the 'Harry gets ANGRY, SMASH' thing only happened in GRAVE PERIL, BLOOD RITES, ... and actually that's all i can think of off hand.

(and keeping in mind that the OP is only thru DEAD BEAT).

Harry does tend to get beaten down a lot, that's part of the story and why he's fun to read. But he does use his brains, allies, etc. The brute force thing is far from the point of his wins.
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#142 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 02:47 PM

Is it wrong I read the title of this thread in the same voice as "Lowered Expectations" from MAD TV?


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#143 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 05:53 AM

View PostAbyss, on 18 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

View PostMalaclypse, on 18 September 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

I bought a load of the Dresden books for a holiday in Turkey and was ultimately disappointed - formulaic much? Dresden just barely survives, just baaaarely coaxes that extra little bit of power or gets an extremely timely helping hand from whoever he's hanging out with at the time? And if worse comes to worst, he just gets angry and all of a sudden wins!

Weaksauce, sorry but that's my opinion.


An overdose of dresdencrack leads inevitably to a crash.
I binge read the first few. Enjoyed 1-3 because they steadily improve, but GRAVE PERIL is my least favorite likely because i was semi-bored. Took an extended break, then loved SUMMER and MASKS but again, liked BLOOD less because i was a bit overread. From DEAD BEAT on it's been one a year, so no issues, but i am not blind to the formulaic elements for the first few books at least, and that reading 'too many' in one burst can be offputting.

But as a glorious yearly dose... oh, i don't think much comes close.

Btw, this...

Quote

And if worse comes to worst, he just gets angry and all of a sudden wins!


...doesn't apply to every book by a long shot.

Some, yes, and i can't/ won't break down how he beats the big bad in each book, but to grab a few examples, in FOOL MOON he wins by working with Marcone despite their enmity, in SUMMER KNIGHT he wins by being clever enough to have Toot and The Pizza Fae in reserve, and in DEAD BEAT he outsmarts the necromancers, not outpowers.

As far as i can remember, the 'Harry gets ANGRY, SMASH' thing only happened in GRAVE PERIL, BLOOD RITES, ... and actually that's all i can think of off hand.

(and keeping in mind that the OP is only thru DEAD BEAT).

Harry does tend to get beaten down a lot, that's part of the story and why he's fun to read. But he does use his brains, allies, etc. The brute force thing is far from the point of his wins.


Yeah, I bought a couple of them years ago with no concern for the order and enjoyed them and then kinda forgot about it but given the play they seem to get here I thought I'd dive in and was disappointed. No biggie. I just find them boring and predictable.

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 19 September 2014 - 06:02 AM


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Posted 18 October 2014 - 11:36 AM

five or six.

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 04:10 PM

I haven't really read this thread but I have one growing concern to add.

The good guys win at the end of every book. Sure there's always a cost, but they win in the end. Surely with 15 books there should be room for some losses. And Nicodemus, who is supposed to be on of the most clever dudes out there due to his thousands of years of experience, continually loses to a ~40 year old wizard. The guy has some great lines but he'd be much more intimidating if he actually won every now and then. This series hasn't had a real Empire Strikes Back.
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Posted 28 October 2014 - 04:35 PM

View PostEnd of Disc One, on 28 October 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

I haven't really read this thread but I have one growing concern to add.

The good guys win at the end of every book. Sure there's always a cost, but they win in the end. Surely with 15 books there should be room for some losses. And Nicodemus, who is supposed to be on of the most clever dudes out there due to his thousands of years of experience, continually loses to a ~40 year old wizard. The guy has some great lines but he'd be much more intimidating if he actually won every now and then. This series hasn't had a real Empire Strikes Back.


I don't want to spoil later books, but while Harry generally 'wins', it's hardly been without loss or consequence.


EMPIRE was cliffhangered to the next movie. That doesn't work as well in books that are intended to be self-contained and anyone's first, even ones that come out with relative regularity.
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#147 User is offline   Mcardle 

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 01:52 PM

Nah I caught up pretty quickly, was going through two audiobooks a week so finished a while ago, I will say that a lot of my irritations softened over the course, my dislike of Karen disappeared and I generally had a blast, the books never really went into the storylines I wanted to read about mostly but they were a blast and the perfect diversion to the heavyweight literature of the Malazan, moved onto working my way through Joe Aborcrombie now... Things I read while waiting for Fall of Light...
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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:42 PM

View PostAbyss, on 18 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

View PostMalaclypse, on 18 September 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

I bought a load of the Dresden books for a holiday in Turkey and was ultimately disappointed - formulaic much? Dresden just barely survives, just baaaarely coaxes that extra little bit of power or gets an extremely timely helping hand from whoever he's hanging out with at the time? And if worse comes to worst, he just gets angry and all of a sudden wins!

Weaksauce, sorry but that's my opinion.


An overdose of dresdencrack leads inevitably to a crash.
I binge read the first few. Enjoyed 1-3 because they steadily improve, but GRAVE PERIL is my least favorite likely because i was semi-bored. Took an extended break, then loved SUMMER and MASKS but again, liked BLOOD less because i was a bit overread. From DEAD BEAT on it's been one a year, so no issues, but i am not blind to the formulaic elements for the first few books at least, and that reading 'too many' in one burst can be offputting.

But as a glorious yearly dose... oh, i don't think much comes close.







I think this was my major problem with them - I read them all a bit too quickly and too close together, so by the end for each interesting new element I was increasingly frustrated with two or three formulaic ones. I had a break before Skin Game though and ended up really enjoying that, and I think the break before the next one will probably do me good too.

Although post-Skin Game I can't hear the word "Parkour" without descending into fits of giggles.
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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:57 PM

View PostEnd of Disc One, on 28 October 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

I haven't really read this thread but I have one growing concern to add.

The good guys win at the end of every book. Sure there's always a cost, but they win in the end. Surely with 15 books there should be room for some losses. And Nicodemus, who is supposed to be on of the most clever dudes out there due to his thousands of years of experience, continually loses to a ~40 year old wizard. The guy has some great lines but he'd be much more intimidating if he actually won every now and then. This series hasn't had a real Empire Strikes Back.


Disagree, Harry has been successful in treating the symptoms of the growing enemies influence. He does not even have a clue yet as to who they are.
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Posted 05 November 2014 - 08:58 PM

I went to a park the other day and there was actually a grown man and a lady running around the playground yelling "parkour!"
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#151 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 02:13 AM

View PostCause, on 05 November 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

View PostEnd of Disc One, on 28 October 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

I haven't really read this thread but I have one growing concern to add.

The good guys win at the end of every book. Sure there's always a cost, but they win in the end. Surely with 15 books there should be room for some losses. And Nicodemus, who is supposed to be on of the most clever dudes out there due to his thousands of years of experience, continually loses to a ~40 year old wizard. The guy has some great lines but he'd be much more intimidating if he actually won every now and then. This series hasn't had a real Empire Strikes Back.


Disagree, Harry has been successful in treating the symptoms of the growing enemies influence. He does not even have a clue yet as to who they are.


Actually, for the last 2-3 books an everarching larger enemy plot is being gradually developed, that Harry is stil clueless about. I would say that most of his victories, have been pretty small ones, or ones that don't matter a lot. If my instinct is correct, things will change a lot in the last 4 books or so of the series.
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Posted 01 December 2014 - 12:27 PM

View PostAndorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Actually, for the last 2-3 books an everarching larger enemy plot is being gradually developed, that Harry is stil clueless about. I would say that most of his victories, have been pretty small ones, or ones that don't matter a lot. If my instinct is correct, things will change a lot in the last 4 books or so of the series.

He is clueless, but still manages to foil their plans. Out of the last 3 books, only Ghost Story victory is personal in nature;
Spoiler


View PostAbyss, on 28 October 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

I don't want to spoil later books, but while Harry generally 'wins', it's hardly been without loss or consequence.
While it is generally true, if Harry won every time without any kind of consequences it would be a series aimed at elementary school readers. As it is, it fits into the 'has consequences, but not really' type. Harry is a cool guy, and like all cool characters, he has to have bad thing happening to him, otherwise it wouldn't be 'deep'. However, everything is structured in such a way that when a truly terrible thing happens to one of his friends, Harry cannot be blamed for it. Usually, it is either a Heroic Sacrifice, or somebody in 'the team' gets hurt while trying to save the world. Then, Harry mops around with guilt for a while, but other people tell him that it wasn't his fault. Because it wasn't.

What irritates me the most is how reactive Harry is. He has a number of methods to increase his skills and knowledge at his disposal, and yet his most powerful abilities are usually given to him by some external entity. He meets (and insults and antagonizes) creatures out of his league, and yet he rarely (if ever, I don't remember but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here) devises a plan of dealing with them in the future.

That being said, I enjoy reading the books anyway, for reasons other than the main character. Though if Ferrovax the Awesome eats Butters and his ridiculous sword in one of the future books, all minor grievances will be forgiven.
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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostSaitama, on 01 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

...What irritates me the most is how reactive Harry is. He has a number of methods to increase his skills and knowledge at his disposal, and yet his most powerful abilities are usually given to him by some external entity.



Not really accurate but I don't want to spoil SKIN GAME.

Would be curious what you would use as an example of your point tho'.


Quote

He meets (and insults and antagonizes) creatures out of his league, and yet he rarely (if ever, I don't remember but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here) devises a plan of dealing with them in the future.


I think you're confusing 'meets and ... antagonizes' with 'refuses to be intimidated or bullied'.


Quote

... if Ferrovax the Awesome eats Butters and his ridiculous sword in one of the future books, all minor grievances will be forgiven.



I don't really know you, so I feel kind of bad for declaring holy bloodwar on you and your descendants unending until the heatdeath of the universe for this comment.
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#154 User is offline   Inane Babble 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:18 PM

View PostAbyss, on 01 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

View PostSaitama, on 01 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

...What irritates me the most is how reactive Harry is. He has a number of methods to increase his skills and knowledge at his disposal, and yet his most powerful abilities are usually given to him by some external entity.



Not really accurate but I don't want to spoil SKIN GAME.

Would be curious what you would use as an example of your point tho'.


Quote

He meets (and insults and antagonizes) creatures out of his league, and yet he rarely (if ever, I don't remember but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here) devises a plan of dealing with them in the future.


I think you're confusing 'meets and ... antagonizes' with 'refuses to be intimidated or bullied'.


Quote

... if Ferrovax the Awesome eats Butters and his ridiculous sword in one of the future books, all minor grievances will be forgiven.



I don't really know you, so I feel kind of bad for declaring holy bloodwar on you and your descendants unending until the heatdeath of the universe for this comment.


Polka must die. It's awful. Fully onboard with operation "Let's find out of Butters is into Vore"
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#155 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 05:15 PM

View PostSaitama, on 01 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Actually, for the last 2-3 books an everarching larger enemy plot is being gradually developed, that Harry is stil clueless about. I would say that most of his victories, have been pretty small ones, or ones that don't matter a lot. If my instinct is correct, things will change a lot in the last 4 books or so of the series.

He is clueless, but still manages to foil their plans. Out of the last 3 books, only Ghost Story victory is personal in nature;
Spoiler


View PostAbyss, on 28 October 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

I don't want to spoil later books, but while Harry generally 'wins', it's hardly been without loss or consequence.
While it is generally true, if Harry won every time without any kind of consequences it would be a series aimed at elementary school readers. As it is, it fits into the 'has consequences, but not really' type. Harry is a cool guy, and like all cool characters, he has to have bad thing happening to him, otherwise it wouldn't be 'deep'. However, everything is structured in such a way that when a truly terrible thing happens to one of his friends, Harry cannot be blamed for it. Usually, it is either a Heroic Sacrifice, or somebody in 'the team' gets hurt while trying to save the world. Then, Harry mops around with guilt for a while, but other people tell him that it wasn't his fault. Because it wasn't.

What irritates me the most is how reactive Harry is. He has a number of methods to increase his skills and knowledge at his disposal, and yet his most powerful abilities are usually given to him by some external entity. He meets (and insults and antagonizes) creatures out of his league, and yet he rarely (if ever, I don't remember but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here) devises a plan of dealing with them in the future.

That being said, I enjoy reading the books anyway, for reasons other than the main character. Though if Ferrovax the Awesome eats Butters and his ridiculous sword in one of the future books, all minor grievances will be forgiven.


I disagree on your spoilered comment about Cold Days. I am putting my rebuttal in spoilers for anyone who has not read Cold Days.
Spoiler


Also a very serious thing happens to him personally and if I have read the books correctly he has not recovered from it yet. Huge Spoiler from Changes

Spoiler

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#156 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 09:12 PM

View PostAbyss, on 01 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Not really accurate but I don't want to spoil SKIN GAME.

Would be curious what you would use as an example of your point tho'.


With Harry from the beginning of the series as benchmark and major powers/spells:
Spoiler

Quote

I don't really know you, so I feel kind of bad for declaring holy bloodwar on you and your descendants unending until the heatdeath of the universe for this comment.

Bring it. I will learn parkour so that I may defeat you with style ;)


View PostAndorion, on 01 December 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

I disagree on your spoilered comment about Cold Days.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
Spoiler

Quote

Also a very serious thing happens to him personally and if I have read the books correctly he has not recovered from it yet. Huge Spoiler from Changes


Re: Changes
Spoiler

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#157 User is offline   Saitama 

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 09:33 PM

View PostAbyss, on 01 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I think you're confusing 'meets and ... antagonizes' with 'refuses to be intimidated or bullied'.


He is not refusing to be intimidated, he desperately wants to convince others that he isn't. True self confidence doesn't require recognition from others.

For example, Marcone has a true self confidence. You can force him to give in, but not in a million years would you believe that he was actually intimidated. You know you will have to watch your back now. In contrast, Harry talks loud and signals to his potential enemies that he has to be dealt with sooner rather than later, but he does not follow through with preparations for the inevitable clash. In short, he is arrogant.
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Posted 01 December 2014 - 11:34 PM

View PostSaitama, on 01 December 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 01 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I think you're confusing 'meets and ... antagonizes' with 'refuses to be intimidated or bullied'.


He is not refusing to be intimidated, he desperately wants to convince others that he isn't. True self confidence doesn't require recognition from others.

For example, Marcone has a true self confidence. You can force him to give in, but not in a million years would you believe that he was actually intimidated. You know you will have to watch your back now. In contrast, Harry talks loud and signals to his potential enemies that he has to be dealt with sooner rather than later, but he does not follow through with preparations for the inevitable clash. In short, he is arrogant.


That's because Jim likes to give Harry a lot of Frenemies, like Lara, Marcone, Leanansidhe, or Erlking, and giving himself the option to ignore them; have them help harry, or be antagonists in whatever book he wants to write.

If Harry was serious about any his threats to kill Lara he could easily do it, and probably in such a way to put Thomas in her place as head of the household. Which would be massively more beneficial for him and the white council than Lara "probably-going-to-turn-on-us-soon-because-she-has-no-reason-not-to-and-is-a-fucking-vampire (see what I did there?)" Raith.

It's like a comic book with regards to how Harry's rogues gallery is growing, but also becoming more diluted and less threatening.
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Posted 02 December 2014 - 02:24 AM

Regarding Cold Days:

Spoiler


Regarding Changes through Cold Days:

Spoiler


Regarding Harry's 'powerups'

Spoiler


Regarding Lara: I don't think Thomas has the plotting chops to rule the White Court. I also suspect he lacks the will.

Regarding Harry not doing dark/questionable things: Harry's character arc is very long term. In the first few books he was painfully anive and got tripped up easily. Later he wised up a bit. By Skin Game he has become way more cynical and is displaying plotting abilities. But fundamentally Harry is a nice guy. He is honest, old-fashioned chivalrous(which can be an annoying quirk), and has certain moral hangups. Throughout all his problems he tries very hard to hang on to these traits. In fact this tenacity defines him to a great extent. However he is increasingly pushed away from this, Changes onwards. I would be very interested to see the future of his arc.

As for Harry's arrogance, yes he is. But consider the plus points: Many would see him as some loud-mouthed cocky idiot who needs to be stomped on. The reaction is anger. Anger clouds judgements. Mistakes are made. Harry gets gaps in the defence ot exploit. Many would expect a more cool, calculating schemer as a wizard of the White Council. They would either be seriously perturbed by all the cockiness, wondering whether their info was correct, or they would see it as some sort of cover for a deep dark plan(which does not exist) this again makes them hesitate.
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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:17 PM

Changes, Cold Days short & sweet:

Spoiler


View PostAndorion, on 02 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Regarding Harry not doing dark/questionable things: Harry's character arc is very long term. In the first few books he was painfully anive and got tripped up easily. Later he wised up a bit. By Skin Game he has become way more cynical and is displaying plotting abilities.


The books are something like 75% finished right? I do enjoy latter novels way, way more. But at this point stakes are getting too high for his newly acquired finesse to be honed into something more complex. Which to a certain extent is fine, I guess. But I would prefer something more challenging.


Quote

As for Harry's arrogance, yes he is. But consider the plus points: Many would see him as some loud-mouthed cocky idiot who needs to be stomped on. The reaction is anger. Anger clouds judgements. Mistakes are made. Harry gets gaps in the defence ot exploit.


The counter argument is that Harry, being as emotional as he is, gets angry equally as fast :unsure: So then we have a case of a baby and a horse in a screaming match, except the soundwaves are fire. I could understand if Dresden did his due dilligence before the case, so he knew those gaps in defence and needed something to uncover them. As is, he just throws the dice every time (while he has a handicap) betting that the outcome will be positive.
On a side note, this is why I like the winter knight mantle as a power - it's not that flashy but it makes Harry less of a glass cannon. Not to the point that it makes him go toe to toe with heavy hitters, but enough that I don't have to roll my eyes every time he survives a physical encounter with a superior foe.


View PostInane Babble, on 01 December 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

It's like a comic book with regards to how Harry's rogues gallery is growing, but also becoming more diluted and less threatening.


Agreed. Though it's nice to see Harry being able to use his diplomatic skills once in a while.
I have high hopes (well, relatively high) for Ferrovax because I consider Nicodemus to be a wasted potential.
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