[Gorefest]

Depends where she runs to. In the books, Theon and Jeyne join up with Stannis, who then sends them on to the Wall ( I believe). They are also mingled back up with Asha for a Greyjoy storyline setup.

Obviously meeting up with Stannis' army is out of the picture now, so either they will head straight to the Wall, which indeed seems to render the whole Sansa character arc rather pointless, or they somehow merge it with the Brienne thread and mix in some Manderley's and maybe some Brothers without Banners, who might rally around Sansa in revenge on the Boltons. Sansa could then take the place of Lady Stoneheart in the books.

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 16 June 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Terez, on 15 June 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with it. It's kind of a unique scene in the show, with a death being a true delivery of justice, and the condemned meeting his justice with his last shred of honor. I never thought it was ambiguous; we see her sword swinging toward his head. With Ned Stark, we saw birds flying.

Not ambiguous? Until it was said above that he was really dead, I honestly thought they cut away because Brienne changes her mind. It's the key words 'Do your duty' that Stannis mumbles right before Brienne kills him. I thought it would be a similar trigger to her reply to Lady Stoneheart, i.e. she swore to protect the Stark girls and when Stannis says this she decides that her personal quest for vengeance is less important than getting his help in freeing Sansa. But clearly that is now a dead end.

Guess Stannis didn't write the pink letter either then. Although of course there is no pink letter in the series.

I think the fact that Stannis in this episode is quite realistically a blatant allegory for Richard the III at the end of the Battle Of Bosworth Field, where the final overthrow of the House of York (Baratheon) occurred which in turn led to the ascension of the Tudor (Lannister/Targaryen) monarchy and the end of the Wars of the Roses...is the most telling factor in the Brienne-DID-kill-Stannis camp. Stannis has been the tragic unthroned last member of his family all along. The fact that he died alone, wounded in the forest, is telling as well.

Anyways, if for some reason they pull this punch and Stannis lives next season...I don't know how you come back from that for either Stannis Or Brienne...Brienne especially not following through with her vow for Renly (which supersedes her vow to Cat since it came first) breaks her character in a way. I doubt D&D or GRRM would do that.

[Terez]

Agreed that her vows to Renly superseded her vows to Catelyn. That was, indeed, a condition for giving her vows to Catelyn, that Catelyn would not hold her back from Stannis when the time came. In the books and in the show. That's another reason why I never doubted she killed him. What could make her change her mind? She saw herself as dispensing justice, and Stannis's acceptance just made it easier for her to do. She might have respected him somewhat in that moment, for confessing that he killed Renly with blood magic, and for telling her to do her duty, but respect would not have stopped her from doing it, any more than it stopped Stannis from hacking off Davos's fingertips. If there was any scene in the whole series where we didn't need to see the head roll to know he was dead, it was that one.

[Gorefest]

Well, she could have reasoned that she could kill Stannis at a later date but that helping Sansa was more urgent and required 'allies'. Remember that Sansa lit a candle just after Brienne marched off towards the battle field, so perhaps Pod spotted it and stayed Brienne's hand.

But yeah, Stannis being dead does seem the most likely outcome. I can only hope/assume that the books and the TV series have truly diverged at this point.

[Terez]

Gorefest, on 16 June 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Well, she could have reasoned that she could kill Stannis at a later date but that helping Sansa was more urgent and required 'allies'. Remember that Sansa lit a candle just after Brienne marched off towards the battle field, so perhaps Pod spotted it and stayed Brienne's hand.

None of that makes any sense to me. Why would Brienne think that Sansa would need Stannis? What could Stannis do for her, with his army destroyed? And urgency means nothing; she's got him right there and it takes two seconds to swing the sword.

[Gorefest]

She might reason that if he can use blood magic to kill Renly, he could also use it to kill Roose and Ramsay. No clue how much she knows of the priesthood of the Lord of Light or Mellisandre. But I do agree that is quite a stretch, so yeah, Stannis very probably is a goner.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

On a lighter note, the other half and I came up with a cheerful alternate Game of Thrones over lunchtime!

Ned, Jorah, Oberyn, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Daario, Davos and season five-Jaime are our merry band of ne'er-do-wells who get together and run around Westeros having buddy-cop style misadventures.

Stannis is the long suffering figure putting up with the gang's crap and getting through it by correcting everyone's grammar to make himself feel better.

Step aside, HBO. We've got this one!

[Abyss]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 16 June 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

On a lighter note, the other half and I came up with a cheerful alternate Game of Thrones over lunchtime!

Ned, Jorah, Oberyn, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Daario, Davos and season five-Jaime are our merry band of ne'er-do-wells who get together and run around Westeros having buddy-cop style misadventures.

Stannis is the long suffering figure putting up with the gang's crap and getting through it by correcting everyone's grammar to make himself feel better.

Step aside, HBO. We've got this one!

Unless you're also doing a zombie show, i see a logistical problem with your plan.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Abyss, on 16 June 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 16 June 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

On a lighter note, the other half and I came up with a cheerful alternate Game of Thrones over lunchtime!

Ned, Jorah, Oberyn, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Daario, Davos and season five-Jaime are our merry band of ne'er-do-wells who get together and run around Westeros having buddy-cop style misadventures.

Stannis is the long suffering figure putting up with the gang's crap and getting through it by correcting everyone's grammar to make himself feel better.

Step aside, HBO. We've got this one!

Unless you're also doing a zombie show, i see a logistical problem with your plan.

The zombies take five seasons to appear in full and do anything of importance.

[Abyss]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 16 June 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

Abyss, on 16 June 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 16 June 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

On a lighter note, the other half and I came up with a cheerful alternate Game of Thrones over lunchtime!

Ned, Jorah, Oberyn, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Daario, Davos and season five-Jaime are our merry band of ne'er-do-wells who get together and run around Westeros having buddy-cop style misadventures.

Stannis is the long suffering figure putting up with the gang's crap and getting through it by correcting everyone's grammar to make himself feel better.

Step aside, HBO. We've got this one!

Unless you're also doing a zombie show, i see a logistical problem with your plan.

The zombies take five seasons to appear in full and do anything of importance.

I mean that half your cast is already dead.

[worry]

The idea of the Watch actually burning Jon and him being reborn that way is interesting (maybe in tandem with some Melisandre witchery), and I hadn't considered it before seeing it here, but I do believe Jon very explicitly burns his hand (in show and book) when he grabs a lantern to burn the wight that attacks Mormont. Have the big ASOIAF nerds addressed this?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 17 June 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

The idea of the Watch actually burning Jon and him being reborn that way is interesting (maybe in tandem with some Melisandre witchery), and I hadn't considered it before seeing it here, but I do believe Jon very explicitly burns his hand (in show and book) when he grabs a lantern to burn the wight that attacks Mormont. Have the big ASOIAF nerds addressed this?

There's a thread on Forum of Ice and Fire (i'm on my phone, will add it later) where what appears to be one of the mods gets a bit ariated about this theoretical Targ fire immunity and there's a Word of God somewhere where George addresses Dany's fire walk as a " one time blood magic deal".

Mel works blood magic though, so I don't think it rules out that scenario forJon (with Mel's help ).

[Gorefest]

Not sure about burning Jon, interesting idea. I was thinking that Melissandre might burn Shireen to revive Jon. The power of king's blood and all that.

[Primateus]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 June 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

worry, on 17 June 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

The idea of the Watch actually burning Jon and him being reborn that way is interesting (maybe in tandem with some Melisandre witchery), and I hadn't considered it before seeing it here, but I do believe Jon very explicitly burns his hand (in show and book) when he grabs a lantern to burn the wight that attacks Mormont. Have the big ASOIAF nerds addressed this?

There's a thread on Forum of Ice and Fire (i'm on my phone, will add it later) where what appears to be one of the mods gets a bit ariated about this theoretical Targ fire immunity and there's a Word of God somewhere where George addresses Dany's fire walk as a " one time blood magic deal".

Mel works blood magic though, so I don't think it rules out that scenario forJon (with Mel's help ).

Well, in regards to Dany's fire, in the show it was shown at other times that she did have at least a resistance to heat. The bath in episode one which was "too hot" and when she put the dragon eggs in a fireplace later in season 1 and then picked it up. So it might not just be a one time deal.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Sorry, should have clarified I was talking purely the books there.

[Terez]

The hot baths at least were in the books; Dany thought to herself that the heat made her feel clean. And while she tried to heat her eggs on a brazier in the books, I don't remember whether she touched them with her hands. The chapter summary doesn't say.

Either way, it's possible for Jon to have a one-time-only immunity to fire, when he is reborn as Azor Ahai or whatever. I can see him raising from the pyre. "We shall never see his like again....."

[Gorefest]

Terez, on 16 June 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 16 June 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Well, she could have reasoned that she could kill Stannis at a later date but that helping Sansa was more urgent and required 'allies'. Remember that Sansa lit a candle just after Brienne marched off towards the battle field, so perhaps Pod spotted it and stayed Brienne's hand.

None of that makes any sense to me. Why would Brienne think that Sansa would need Stannis? What could Stannis do for her, with his army destroyed? And urgency means nothing; she's got him right there and it takes two seconds to swing the sword.

Got thinking about it a bit more. I do still find it niggling that they don't actually show Stannis being killed, whereas you do (very graphically, I might add) see Myrcella, Jon and Arya's victim die. There really are plenty of ways and reasons to have Stannis survive his run-in with Brienne, apart from her showing (temporary) mercy in favour of obtaining his aid (tactical insight on how to get into Winterfell, assumed magic ability, or just for having a flaming sword). Pod could intervene last-minute, perhaps after seeing the candle. The Brotherhood without Banners could have arrived on the scene and stopped Brienne. Theon and Sansa may have actually showed up in the clearing after their jump and team up with Brienne and Stannis to regroup and mobilise new troops. Stannis may even have been leaning against a weirwood tree and Bran stops the sword through the tree by swinging a branch out to intercept it. So many ways around it. But if you don't see heads roll, when in the same episode other people are so clearly and graphically die, the show makers must have a reason for leaving it open. So I'm afraid I'll remain unconvinced until we see a decapitated corpse in season 6.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 17 June 2015 - 11:17 AM

[Gorefest]

Indeed. Mangled corpses or it didn't happen.

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 17 June 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Terez, on 16 June 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 16 June 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Well, she could have reasoned that she could kill Stannis at a later date but that helping Sansa was more urgent and required 'allies'. Remember that Sansa lit a candle just after Brienne marched off towards the battle field, so perhaps Pod spotted it and stayed Brienne's hand.

None of that makes any sense to me. Why would Brienne think that Sansa would need Stannis? What could Stannis do for her, with his army destroyed? And urgency means nothing; she's got him right there and it takes two seconds to swing the sword.

Got thinking about it a bit more. I do still find it niggling that they don't actually show Stannis being killed, whereas you do (very graphically, I might add) see Myrcella, Jon and Arya's victim die. There really are plenty of ways and reasons to have Stannis survive his run-in with Brienne, apart from her showing (temporary) mercy in favour of obtaining his aid (tactical insight on how to get into Winterfell, assumed magic ability, or just for having a flaming sword). Pod could intervene last-minute, perhaps after seeing the candle. The Brotherhood without Banners could have arrived on the scene and stopped Brienne. Theon and Sansa may have actually showed up in the clearing after their jump and team up with Brienne and Stannis to regroup and mobilise new troops. Stannis may even have been leaning against a weirwood tree and Bran stops the sword through the tree by swinging a branch out to intercept it. So many ways around it. But if you don't see heads roll, when in the same episode other people are so clearly and graphically die, the show makers must have a reason for leaving it open. So I'm afraid I'll remain unconvinced until we see a decapitated corpse in season 6.

One thing you may need to consider above and beyond the other reasons not to show Stannis' beheading.

Effects budget. From what I can tell, a huge section of the budget (largest portion for the season) was dedicated the the Hardhome sequence in Ep8. So much so that the battle of Winterfell in Ep10 is only shown from afar. You've got Arya having to pull faces off "no one" repeatedly (more CGI), and a few other odds and ends probably. Jon's death scene, Meryn Trant, Myrcella, and even Ramsay's girl...all done easily with practical effects, blood packs, ect. This costs next to nothing when compared to CGI.

A beheading, on the other hand, has always been done on the show with CGI (as far as I know they've never resorted to practical effects with a dummy head and blood packs to show a beheading) to make it look as realistic as possible. Since they've very likely spent the effects budget on the rest of the season and especially Hardhome sequence, most of which would have been CGI, it's entirely possible that the decision not to show the beheading was a monetary one.

[Nevyn]

Yeah, I don't know why they would not show it, other than a beheading at close range is pretty gory and difficult to CGI even for them (past ones having been shown from a farther off character's perspective.

But it would be the stupidest thing they have done so far if they end their season with him presumed executed (after setting up his decline and fall over the season), then just start the next season saying "nope, she didn't really kill him". They have enough dramatic fan-crushing death in the stabbing of Jon Snow to make a finale, so I think if they wanted to have Stannis somehow spared, they would actually show that in the finale.

Furthermore, his story is wrapped up nicely. He let Melisandre talk him into more and more things he knew to be wrong, giving up more and more of his nobility, ending in him sacrificing his daughter, having his wife commit suicide, and Melisandre and his army abandon him. Having him lose that last battle, come face to face with a past sin of his and accept his fate is a fitting a poetic end. To have him live would lessen the impact of all that came before, and require a feeble explanation.

If one of the finale deaths is going to be seen again, I don't think it will be Stannis. And I don't think it will be because they didn't die, but rather because someone brought them back. And I won't be at all surprised if that doesn't happen either.