[Barghast]

Quote

Now this comment below is why I am voting for Denul today..

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

Hood, on 20 June 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Out of the two options I find Kaschan to be the more scummier but nothing really sways me to defend GL and look at him innocently. There is possibly one or two players that I can see myself nodding along to, but various actions from others make my vote quite flexible.

I could vote for Ampelas for his reactions around the Sukul incident, but I wasn't getting a good feeling from him early on either.

Nothing has been majorly scummy for me this game so far. Another failed lynch is not going to happen though.

I agree completely with the underlined. Which is why I'm not going to outline my thoughts on others until after we get one. You're close to the top of my suspect list though.

I'm not bothered about that. It does show me that your judgement is not to be trusted though, hence why I would probably lean to Kaschan over GL. If you're wrong about me then you could be wrong about other's.

Did Pallid settle on GL as his choice?


Why has Liosan not pushed his case, he has voted for it, but not said much since.

I have my suspicion who is scum and they have not been mentioned yet, I am going to prbably push it tomorrow. For now, it's between GL and Kaschan. They both look suspect.

These were doubts about Liosan's case and HP's judgement, but there was no way I was going to vote away from one of GL and Kaschan at that stage. No way. If that had happened we may have had a failed lynch.

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

Kaschan, on 20 June 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

So I was going to do a huge post but there are too many quotes and GIF's from Barghast. So Im going to keep it simple and people can go look for themselves. I am operating under the assumption of 3 scum. 2 killers and 1 symp. This puts the ration at 3:1 which is typical. I have Barghast pegged and a symp and GL and SA as killers. Paired or not doesnt really matter for the assumption. Barghast has done nothing but repeatedly spam the thread with GIF's even after being asked to stop by multiple people. Once Lio and I vote for GL and SA, respectively, he commences to defending both of them and trying to undermine both of our arguments rather than putting something out there himself. Then posts a bunch of Pallid quotes after he was killed, stating " I liked his argument", but nothing else. Then states exactly what SA about me "knowing" Pallid was town and nothing else. And now we are close to end of day with basically a tie on our hands and two people who said they are willing to vote GL, including GL himself. So, am I right about all 3? I dont know. But if GL CF's scum I figure I cant be too far off. And no this doesnt absolve a couple others that have slight inconsistencies but as HP said I will bring those up later if I am still alive to do so.

I would be willing to switch to GL if someone could actually give me a clear idea what this 'case' everyone seems to have on him is all about! I mean, I'll switch for the lynch if I have to, but I'm going to leave it to the last minute, or as close to it as I can, in hopes that someone will clarify this for me.

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Nimander I think it stems from the pissing match Liosan and GL had on day one, and that they tried and failed to lynch GL day one. Then today he has done nothing to alleviate people's fears he is scum, and actually not defended the votes that are placed on him.

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Nimander I think it stems from the pissing match Liosan and GL had on day one, and that they tried and failed to lynch GL day one. Then today he has done nothing to alleviate people's fears he is scum, and actually not defended the votes that are placed on him.

There is SFA to defend against. Ergo IDGAF. You're all retarded dickwads as my RI CF will indicate.

Where are we left after then? "links" to me? People pushing the nil case on me is about all. So good luck.

Queue Liosan pushing his "case" against GL

Liosan, on 20 June 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Whew, thought I had missed timeout for a minute there... Sorry I wasn't around much most of today, RL had to be priority, but I'm back and should be around most of today. I just read up fast and we have a really interesting tie on our hands. Voting for Kaschan are two people he has fingered as scum, with a third being the one who refused to vote GL yesterday(suspicious, given that there were only 45 minutes left and he was the only viable train)(Nimander). And today, again, he is voting against the GL train while Kaschan's train, imo, doesn't have as much basis.

@ Nimander: Look back over the thread. Pallid posted a nice recap of the case when he voted day one, and then I quoted it today. That's where people are coming from when they vote GL

Then HP also points out GL's play has been non existent

Here I express the way I am leaning at this stage

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Kaschan oozes newby whereas GL seems more like a veteran, and the woe is me doesn't seem to sit right with my feelings about him.

How are we going to proceed going forward? I am now leaning more towards GL especially because of his recap to Nimander

(As I am reading this up, and writing my thoughts, I am considering voting for GL today myself, up to this point, (in day 2) I do actually feel that GL could be scum)

What has stood out a little to me, is Nimander's defense of GL, it has been quite vehement, when we could not be sure either way.

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Like I said, I'll vote GL if it's necessary for the lynch, but I'd just as soon not vote for him. The case against him is a load of shit, as far as I am concerned. You're all just latching on to the easy lynch for no good reason.

This puts GL at L1

Hood, on 20 June 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

I'd much rather have a concensus than not. But since Shin is going to freeze after the lynch

Vote GL

[Barghast]

So are these posts genuine or not by GL? In the midst of all the chaos he did sound reasonable

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

As I said, I'm around to switch if needed, regardless of Denuls thoughts on the matter - I'd rather a lynch on me went through than we had another no lynch. Again. Because that just fucks us up.

What is odd about this post ^, is that Denul hasn't commented on this page at all. So why mention him here?


I went back and it was because Denul said he didn't like the self vote and he voted for GL, so the above post is at odds with itself, regardless of what Denul thinks, I would rather you lynch me, than not but Denul IS voting for him.

I think it is due to the fact that we "could" miss a lynch and GL is promising to vote himself to make that happen. At the time, they looked like a selfless act, but in hindsight we did have the people there to lynch, so GL did not need to say this.

Another defense of GL from another player

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Like I said, I'll vote GL if it's necessary for the lynch, but I'd just as soon not vote for him. The case against him is a load of shit, as far as I am concerned. You're all just latching on to the easy lynch for no good reason.

Strongly agree that the GL case is BS, I don't see it at all.

I express my doubts over Denul, but I will vote for one of the two on offer.

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

30 minutes to choose the right lynch. It's our fault for leaving it tp others all day, the two trains have built up and we have to pick out of them don't we, I would love to lynch Denul but that's not going to be an option. Denul is my main choice for scum.

I don't like to swing away from what has built up over the last 30 odd hours, but it is what we are left to.

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

How much time do we have left? Do I need to switch over?

Hood, on 20 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Like I said, I'll vote GL if it's necessary for the lynch, but I'd just as soon not vote for him. The case against him is a load of shit, as far as I am concerned. You're all just latching on to the easy lynch for no good reason.

And you're not? kaschan in my opinion is the weaker case of the two. your mileage may vary of course.

My thoughts on GL's post at the time

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

As I said, I'm around to switch if needed, regardless of Denuls thoughts on the matter - I'd rather a lynch on me went through than we had another no lynch. Again. Because that just fucks us up.

See this is townyish.

so now afer I do this, both are on L1

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

I don't know about Lio but I distrust Amp.

Nimander I will give you the hammer.

Vote Kaschan


I am not going to be the one to decide this.

[Barghast]

Again GL trying to persuade us to vote for him

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

Make up your minds. Odd/even rule says I go.

I will change to get the lynch

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

If he doesn't respond within 15 minutes, and time is precariously close I will switch over.

GL offers to self-vote. Barghast says he shouldn't give up if he's town.

Now back to you Eloth

Barghast then says he believes GL.

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

You hammering yourself is no good for town, if you are town, if you are town then you should aim to stay alive.

Then GL offers himself again

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

You hammering yourself is no good for town, if you are town, if you are town then you should aim to stay alive.

It takes me out of the equation. No lynch today just makes tomorrow D1 pt. 3 with two NKs having taken place.

His willingness to die is what was making me believe his innocence.

Ampelas steps in

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

You hammering yourself is no good for town, if you are town, if you are town then you should aim to stay alive.

It takes me out of the equation. No lynch today just makes tomorrow D1 pt. 3 with two NKs having taken place.

Or Day 2 with 2 dead town, after all, how often do Day 1 lycnhes actually hit scum?

Just keep it together and ride it out.

See this is the reason I wanted to look elsewhere today

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

So we're at what, 5 votes each for Kaschan and GL?

Yes, looking at GL's current play I think Kaschan is the best option but people will use that as him escaping a lynch. Clear up the wifom with GL, or possible scum with kaschan.

[Barghast]

Quote

This post by Nimander hits the nail on the head about day 3, but I don't know, Nimander could be GL's partner, he was defending him, and he is preempting talking about GL again

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I have to go for lunch, my stomach is growling like a crazed animal! Should I just hammer GL then?

Let them get over their insecurity about not having perfect knowledge, the only WIFOM surrounding GL as far as I'm concerned is "Is he scum playing REALLY well at being town? Or just good town?"

As far as I am concerned here, kaschan is a better target.

Yeah but leaving him alive just means Day 3 goes back to Day 1's failed lynch of GL again. We'll spend the day doing stupid WIFOM and arguing over a case that makes absolutely no sense, then we'll have another stalled lynch at the end of the Day.

You are getting rid of someone to placate the people who are gunning for him for a reason neither of us can even SEE?

Yeah, it's a good strategy to help us move on to something new. If the people who are voting GL are right, then we hit scum. If they're wrong, then we can move on from their convictions and try to find actual scum. If they're wrong, but we don't vote GL out, then we waste Day 3 continuing this stupid argument.

Amp wanting Kaschan over GL

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

7 mins left I think?

Please someone vote Kaschan.

In the moment, with GL posting my thoughts on him

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Thoughts on GL's posting right now? Do you think he will turn up town or scum? I am leaning towards town, whereas I don't know with Kaschan

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Thoughts on GL's posting right now? Do you think he will turn up town or scum? I am leaning towards town, whereas I don't know with Kaschan

I'm probably biased...

I had a post ready, I was about to change

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Shit. I see Nimander's point about GL and Wifom.

when HP

Hood, on 20 June 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Since you all have talked GL out of self-voting. We need the fucking lynch.

Remove Vote


Vote Kaschan

Kaschan is lynched. So now we get to this, the summary was pretty weak Eloth.


Barghast states that in his view, GL is town and we should look elsewhere today. I did not want to stick on the GL wifom, but we have. We all have.

Summarize a bit more: he basically insists that GL is town and ought not to be revisited. It sounds like he CI'd the guy in a game with no way to CI people. True, and after reading up I have changed my mind

[Barghast]

So now I will address the scenarios.

Quote

Now, in my reasoning, I take issue with the CI-ing. I name three potential scenario's. Denul quotes them above, but let's repeat them since it's clear not everyone fully sees what I try to say. The scenario's are:

Either I agree with 1 or GL is town and gave me that vibe. The other 2 are way off base cause they involve me as scum.

Scenario 1.
GL is scum and offers to self-sacrifice. Barghast is not the only one to refute this, Ampelas also doesn't think so due to the wording, but Ampelas explicitly keeps the option open that GL might be scum. I remain doubtful. Barghast though is the only one to completely blithely refuse this option.
How can he be so sure, when scum will always try to sound like town, and it is a logical play to garner some sympathy when time runs down and there is an alternative (Kaschan)? If Barghast is town, does he not see the option that GL might have him fooled through sounding sincere? He doesn't. Because he wants a different direction.


Scenario 2
GL is inno and Barghast is scum. The tactical benefit of defending someone who is inno, is to earn someone's thanks and perhaps also come out shining ("told you guys he was inno"). Barghast prides himself several times on being able to spot that Kaschan was a new-ish player, even says somewhere he expected him to be town, iirc (but I might not, so disregard this or search for it). So he prefers keeping GL alive over keeping Kaschan alive, even though he knew some stuff about Kaschan already. Now he more or less CI'd GL.
In a game with killers only, the only person capable of knowing who's CI, is scum. Because it's anyone who's not a killer. For day two/three, that amount of certainty just has a funny smell to it. It is either day 2 syndrome (but if it was day 2 syndrome, he'd have an idea of who's scum, too, which eh doesn't) or scummy.

Scenario 3.
GL is scum and so is Barghast, with Barghast backing up GL and trying to save him from being lynched. In this case, the GL self-vote promise and Barghast then saying "that sounds like town to me" plus the insistence to not look at GL today make a perverse amount of sense.

An interesting side to this scenario is the following.
Barghast doesn't look into option 1 because he believes GL.
Barghast doesn't adress option 2 at all, probably because we should accept he's town.
Barghast does adress option 3 but his defense is extremely limited.

Firstly, he doesn't even say it's wifom. Instead, he says it would be a bad scum play because you leave a connection between the two of you. To which the logical reply is: only if either you or GL are lynched.
And this is a game with probably 3 scum. So one partner would still be hidden.

By insisting on a different direction (and possibly getting your way) this link would be obfuscated for at the very least another day - which would then be d-day.

Part 2 of why I feel Barghast is a better vote than GL, is that Barghast's defense is not only extremely vague (bad scum play, scum would never do that, and other things to that tune - if town doesn't pursue something consequently, then scum will do exactly that because they get away unpunished) but also panicky.

I say panicky because of the following.

A. Content of defense
His early arguments, when my post is fresh, focus on only a third of the possibilities in the "case", which is surprising.
Is this because this element is true, and it is the only way to preserve the facade? After all, if scenario 3 is true, neither he nor GL can be lynched, in his mind.

B. Further arguments later in the thread consist of the ever so sophisticated 'retarded' stamp in colour after every X comments. He still doesn't revisit option 1 or 2 of the case, though. He still doesn't admit he could be fooled by GL, either. If he desperately wants to avoid being lynched, that might be because revealing doubt now would put pressure on both him and GL? And after his statements earlier today and late day 2, he can hardly throw GL under the bus now, even if GL is town: it would be ruthless self-preservation, which is scummy.

C. Contradictory statement with his own theory on 'bad scum play'
He calls scum on two out of the three people who first pos something accusatory against him (Liosan, Denul, myself), seeing two partners working together there.
First, what happened to his conviction that scum wouldn't want to establish a link like that?
Second, if a completely unfounded OMGUS case on three players who's only thing in common is pressuring Barghast is the best effort he can make towards finding scum, what does that say about Barghast?

One, it means he doesn't have a clue who's scum if a spur of the moment idea is the best he has, or is enough to detract him from whatever idea he had.
Two, if he doesn't have a clue who's scummy, which is town's first responsibility, then how come he can so confidently assess that GL is town? This is reinforced by the fact that he also states that Kaschan wasn't a good option. To me, it sounds like a killer trying to blend in by defending people, but not coming up with ideas on who is scummy, and why, because that means sticking out your neck.

D. Barghast tries to put other player's efforts into comparison with his own, as if 'more present' means 'more right' or 'having more right to be believed'. I guess it's a pitfall for highly present players, but it's also blatantly untrue and furthermore, it is not a defense related to ANYTHING on thread. He doesn't seem very capable of accepting that he's making a huge gamble with the GL situation, either.

TL;DNR: too much certainty for day 2/3, an attitude that focuses less on finding scum and more on being the knight in white armor saving people, panicky OMGUS finger pointing, a minimalist defense coupled with the retard brand and a refusal to revisit a previous stance and situation.

Rather than trying to dissect what I am saying Eloth, focus on the lynch yesterday and where we need to go forward, I think we either have to lynch GL right now today, and remove that element OR we never lynch GL until we have caught scum.

What do you make of my Denul Case or vote?

Remove Vote

Vote Galayn Lord

I did not want to focus on him anymore bt too many people cannot see past it, let's do our jobs and clear the water somewhat. I wish we had lynched him over Kaschan now.

[Ampelas]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

So Here is Kaschan just trying to hang out.

First post and he just misses being first

Kaschan, on 17 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Woo hoo my work week just got a little bit more bearable. Oh and First

damn crosspost

So I do not understand this reply to possible signaling to Barghast.

Kaschan, on 17 June 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Barghast, on 17 June 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

On radio

Callsign Swamp Thing

Obviously a freak.

Kaschan, on 17 June 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Girlfriend?? Thats marrying material there

Slightly demented freak.

Kaschan, on 17 June 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Pallid, on 17 June 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 17 June 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Having caught some ... movies ... the tentacles are probably out of shot. Why else do you think she's smiliing?

She opened her PM for this game of Mafia and it read "You are the Predator" in it?

Maybe Cthulhu would be more appropriate for one of the random scenes Shin was mentioning?

Still freaking

Kaschan, on 17 June 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 17 June 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Seriously, whatever happened to wholesome dragonsecks?

It got buried under a fluffy pink and white obsession

Complains about lack of "shit show" but does nothing to contribute to increase the flow of the game.

Kaschan, on 18 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Wow I get on this morning expecting a full fledged shit show and there surprisingly isnt much going on

In conclusion I feel that Kaschan is playing smart and making snarky day one comments. That smacks of someone who is paying attention to the thread but doesn't want to be lynched.

Vote

Kaschan

Denuls first serious post of the game, votes kaschan for playing exactly like everyone else. A pressure vote but tries to come across as a full blown case.

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

To what? The queue to getting in the ground?


I am not a fan of the HP vote either. But we do need something to get this game going.

I am the butler and I say that the maid did the cook in the pantry with a candle stick. The freaky part was the lack of lube. Ha oh.

OK, the previous vote was a bit of a joke, but this one is serious. Denul says that he feels we need something to get the game going. He also says he doesn't like GL's vote on HP. Now, there's an easy solution here: he could vote for GL, thereby expressing his displeasure and simultaneously helping to inject some action into the game. But apparently Denul doesn't feel that it's his responsibility to actually do anything about getting the game started himself. He's quite happy just pointing out that the game needs to move without doing anything about it.

Remove Vote
Vote Denul

A game where nothing happens is a game the scum win - in my book if you're facilitating that you're at best an obstruction to finding the scum, and at worst a scum yourself.

Nicely attempted as I am building my case on Kaschan.

The timing of this really is incredible. An effortless refutation of the first bit of pressure he gets on thread. This delays anyone taking a deeper look at him for quite some time.

[Ampelas]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Eloth

First post in the game

Eloth, on 17 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yeah man. And out again.

His next post doesn't come until after all of the Hello kitty spam. Then he just adds this

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, that's enlightening.

I don't really know what to make of this post. I think that he is referring to the link.

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 18 June 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, that's enlightening.

Rule 34?

I am at work, so I'll pass.
I meant the amount of posts, anyway.

A reference to a Banks novel that involves a party (If I remember that correctly) Possible signaling Who or what I have no idea.

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Ampelas, on 18 June 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Pallid, on 17 June 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Sukul Ankhadu, on 17 June 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Slightly disturbed by the hello kitty fetish

Vote Sukul Ankhadu

I don't think it's a good idea to leave such a disturbed individual in the game.

Sukul Ankhadu, on 18 June 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Well that was an exciting night.
way to be reaching for any excuse for a vote Pallid

Trying to create early distance between each other or just a good old fashioned culling of the prudes?

Making sure they get a Ximenyr-style send-off (for those who've read The Hydrogen Sonata)?

Doubles down on the possible signal to make sure that whom ever he was signaling got it.

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Making sure they get a Ximenyr-style send-off (for those who've read The Hydrogen Sonata)?

I mean death by Ximenyr, here, to clarify...

Reaction to the vote on HP but adds nothing.

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Kaschan, on 18 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Wow I get on this morning expecting a full fledged shit show and there surprisingly isnt much going on

Yeah, that was my reaction, too. Oh well.
Regarding the HP vote... meh. It would be something different if we were at page 6 already, but this is post #53 and it's rather hypocritical to vote for no-shows when there's nothing happening anyway, even to call the guy out.

But maybe that's just tolerant ol' me.

Another nothing post.

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Ampelas, on 18 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Eloth, on 18 June 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Kaschan, on 18 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Wow I get on this morning expecting a full fledged shit show and there surprisingly isnt much going on

Yeah, that was my reaction, too. Oh well.
Regarding the HP vote... meh. It would be something different if we were at page 6 already, but this is post #53 and it's rather hypocritical to vote for no-shows when there's nothing happening anyway, even to call the guy out.

But maybe that's just tolerant ol' me.

I am extremely tolerant, I tell you. I even let old ladies jump the queue.

Totally playing it safe. With some more possible signalling.

Vote Eloth

Another vote based on people not putting themselves out there. Even for day 1 this is a really tenuous reason.

[Ampelas]

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Worth bearing in mind that this is a Killers vs Town game according to the OP. That means no symps, and it's probably safe to assume two paired killers. So given that, why are people looking for signalling? There are no roles to code and no reason for anyone to need to signal anyone else. Interactions and distancing are the name of the game in a scenario like this.

Where you get no symps because it is a killers vs town game. The bare basic m/p game is a killer with a symp. Paired killers actually increase the TMDI level because you have to put town roles in that balance out killer communication. With just a killer and a symp, town does not need to have any roles. I disagree on your conclusion that there can not be a symp in the game. Saying something like that seems like an attempt to generate WIFOM for no reason.

Defends keeping around the possibility of symps.

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 17 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Dear Malazan Mafia Addicts

There is no setting. There is no spoon. Just Killers and Town.

In Mafia, no one can hear you screaming at your computer

RI pm is simply - you are RI

I will write scenes, but they will make no sense whatsoever.

It is day 1, 36 hours are left. Nights will be instantaneous.

12 players are alive.

Ampelas, Atrahal, Barghast, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Liosan, Nimander Golit, Pallid, Sukul Ankhadu


No one has voted.


A TRUE M&P GAME IS ON.

People looking for signalling cases is a bit suspect, right in the OP he said killers and town. No symp was mentioned at all.

Nothing has stood out to me at all, or nothing worth a mention.

https://38.media.tum...pjjrio1_400.gif

Since when is a symp mentioned?

According to Mafia Wiki

Normal Games

The Traitor (Symp on our forum) is a common and allowed for basic games. To assume that there is not a symp seems like a big stretch at any point.

Defends symp idea again.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130082

Defends keeping in mind symps once more (the amount of quotes is getting pretty high)

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130085

Yet again refusing to let us drop the idea.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130088

Finally drops the argument, note that denul does NOT agree to drop the idea of symp WIFOM, just stops arguing it.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130483

Votes for GL on the basis of GL being willing to self vote. Specifically states that he was not sure who was a better target until then.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130614

Disappears until after end of day then votes. Not sure what exactly this accomplishes. Maybe "I'm busy but am TRYING to help, don't look at me too seriously"?

Makes a series of good no nonsense posts against barghast and the clown show he has been displaying today.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130942

"The only evidence is the evidence that you are trying to put there. I haven't lead a lynch on anyone. I have voted for a couple of people and that is it."

The phrasing of this post really bothers me. Denul is trying to say that he can't be looked at for scum through any lynches simply due to the virture of not STARTING them? That voting habits, or lack of them, isn't evidence in itself?

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1131015

Brings up the GL WIFOM yet again and votes him immediately. Says the ONLY benefit to keeping him is for scum, he is DARING anyone to try and argue with him to paint them as scum immediately. When it isn't nearly as cut and dry as he seems to think it is this is an incredibly confident play. Denul wants us to spend a third day in a row with GL in the spotlight, THIS benefits scum, possible D-day tomorrow and he STILL won't let go of the day 1 nonsense that led us here.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1131030

I am willing to lynch GL any time it is worth it. Killing him simply FOR NOT BEING KILLED is nonsense to me.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1131036

Denul then stretches himself so much he spagettifies himself, scum would publicly congratulate each other on tricking town to not lynch one of them. WHAT?

Refusing to let go of WIFOM, with how much resistance there was to the GL lynch yesterday and the many people who voiced a desire to drop it, at least for a little while, he KNEW what would happen when he brought this up again. This is WIFOM generation, not removal. Not received any major attention all game long, the instant he does Barghast get jumped on, coincidence maybe, but it looks awful.

Remove Vote

Vote Denul

[Galayn Lord]

I thought you were off before Barghast.

So a little pressure and you decide it is time to turn on me again? Lets do our jobs when it was you trying to keep the lynches nicely balanced and seeing to be involved?

Vote Barghast

[Galayn Lord]

Amp, I see your point I think on Denul - I am willing to switch there if needed.

[Ampelas]

Galayn Lord, on 24 June 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Amp, I see your point I think on Denul - I am willing to switch there if needed.

If both you and barghast come to your senses and let go of each others throats we can put Denul at L-2

[Galayn Lord]

Ampelas, on 24 June 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 24 June 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Amp, I see your point I think on Denul - I am willing to switch there if needed.

If both you and barghast come to your senses and let go of each others throats we can put Denul at L-2

We have around 15 hours left, there's no huge hurry as yet. I'll be around till EoD-4 or so. I need to re-read Denul and that'll happen when I get home tonight.

[Sukul Ankhadu]

I'll vote him.
throwing wifom and muddying the waters. I was voting denul or barghast anyway

vote denul

[Eloth]

Finally some time to read this. Thanks for going in detail. Replies coming in.

[Eloth]

http://forum.malazan...st__p__1131101. All reasonable. BUT: you state you don't have a clear reason why GL is town. There will be a swing on this later.

In the back and forth with HP, this stands out to me. http://forum.malazan...st__p__1130524. Basically, because he leans one way and thinks X about you, you tend to go the other way? Arrogant.

And then we get here. Are you really preparing a swing?

Quote

Then HP also points out GL's play has been non existent

Here I express the way I am leaning at this stage

Quote

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:
Kaschan oozes newby whereas GL seems more like a veteran, and the woe is me doesn't seem to sit right with my feelings about him.

How are we going to proceed going forward? I am now leaning more towards GL especially because of his recap to Nimander

(As I am reading this up, and writing my thoughts, I am considering voting for GL today myself, up to this point, (in day 2) I do actually feel that GL could be scum)

You swing several ways in that post. You consider GL because NG was defending him, then follow him in the last quote in #443, copying his reasoning. It also doesn't really mesh with your earlier reasoning that there was no defending of GL happening - because you felt NG did.

Then we get to #444, and you are now turning your defense in a case on GL. At this point.... what am I to think? This is a 180 degrees turn.


#445, what a gem in the first line. I am not scum, therefore cross out scenario 2 and 3. That's not a defense. Especially not combined with the fact that you DO NOT stick to your guns. A couple of hours ago, you told me I was dumb because I didn't see what Liosan saw after you posted some reasoning that swayed him towards seeing your point, but.... Now you copy my point of view. It's either/or.
And then it gets worse.

Quote

Rather than trying to dissect what I am saying Eloth, focus on the lynch yesterday and where we need to go forward,

Are you lecturing me? I am not allowed to look at you? Isn't looking at you warranted by the fact that you're going to throw GL under the bus now? How yo changed around from 'he is not scum' to 'I changed my mind', plus a vote for the guy you were defending?
How is not dissecting posts going to help with finding scum? You said I should examine the lynch train, and then you find Denul scummy for not being on it. It's horribly odd.

Quote

I think we either have to lynch GL right now today, and remove that element OR we never lynch GL until we have caught scum.

What do you make of my Denul Case or vote?

Remove Vote

Vote Galayn Lord

I did not want to focus on him anymore bt too many people cannot see past it, let's do our jobs and clear the water somewhat. I wish we had lynched him over Kaschan now.

Funny. I have no enthusiasm whatsoever for voting GL today. You, on the other hand... I need to see your CF. You're trying to placate everyone in leaving you around, and the way you twist seems to me rather desperate.

If you are scum, then I believe Ampelas could be a partner, due to that case on Denul.
If Denul turns out scum, then I'll clear Ampelas, but I won't clear you.

You are extremely suspect still to me, so my vote will stay, at the very least

[Denul]

Ampelas, on 24 June 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Pallid, on 18 June 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Worth bearing in mind that this is a Killers vs Town game according to the OP. That means no symps, and it's probably safe to assume two paired killers. So given that, why are people looking for signalling? There are no roles to code and no reason for anyone to need to signal anyone else. Interactions and distancing are the name of the game in a scenario like this.

Where you get no symps because it is a killers vs town game. The bare basic m/p game is a killer with a symp. Paired killers actually increase the TMDI level because you have to put town roles in that balance out killer communication. With just a killer and a symp, town does not need to have any roles. I disagree on your conclusion that there can not be a symp in the game. Saying something like that seems like an attempt to generate WIFOM for no reason.

Defends keeping around the possibility of symps.

Denul, on 18 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Barghast, on 18 June 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 17 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Dear Malazan Mafia Addicts

There is no setting. There is no spoon. Just Killers and Town.

In Mafia, no one can hear you screaming at your computer

RI pm is simply - you are RI

I will write scenes, but they will make no sense whatsoever.

It is day 1, 36 hours are left. Nights will be instantaneous.

12 players are alive.

Ampelas, Atrahal, Barghast, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Liosan, Nimander Golit, Pallid, Sukul Ankhadu


No one has voted.


A TRUE M&P GAME IS ON.

People looking for signalling cases is a bit suspect, right in the OP he said killers and town. No symp was mentioned at all.

Nothing has stood out to me at all, or nothing worth a mention.

https://38.media.tum...pjjrio1_400.gif

Since when is a symp mentioned?

According to Mafia Wiki

Normal Games

The Traitor (Symp on our forum) is a common and allowed for basic games. To assume that there is not a symp seems like a big stretch at any point.

Defends symp idea again.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130082

Defends keeping in mind symps once more (the amount of quotes is getting pretty high)

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130085

Yet again refusing to let us drop the idea.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130088

Finally drops the argument, note that denul does NOT agree to drop the idea of symp WIFOM, just stops arguing it.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130483

Votes for GL on the basis of GL being willing to self vote. Specifically states that he was not sure who was a better target until then.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130614

Disappears until after end of day then votes. Not sure what exactly this accomplishes. Maybe "I'm busy but am TRYING to help, don't look at me too seriously"?

Makes a series of good no nonsense posts against barghast and the clown show he has been displaying today.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1130942

"The only evidence is the evidence that you are trying to put there. I haven't lead a lynch on anyone. I have voted for a couple of people and that is it."

The phrasing of this post really bothers me. Denul is trying to say that he can't be looked at for scum through any lynches simply due to the virture of not STARTING them? That voting habits, or lack of them, isn't evidence in itself?

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1131015

Brings up the GL WIFOM yet again and votes him immediately. Says the ONLY benefit to keeping him is for scum, he is DARING anyone to try and argue with him to paint them as scum immediately. When it isn't nearly as cut and dry as he seems to think it is this is an incredibly confident play. Denul wants us to spend a third day in a row with GL in the spotlight, THIS benefits scum, possible D-day tomorrow and he STILL won't let go of the day 1 nonsense that led us here.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1131030

I am willing to lynch GL any time it is worth it. Killing him simply FOR NOT BEING KILLED is nonsense to me.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1131036

Denul then stretches himself so much he spagettifies himself, scum would publicly congratulate each other on tricking town to not lynch one of them. WHAT?

Refusing to let go of WIFOM, with how much resistance there was to the GL lynch yesterday and the many people who voiced a desire to drop it, at least for a little while, he KNEW what would happen when he brought this up again. This is WIFOM generation, not removal. Not received any major attention all game long, the instant he does Barghast get jumped on, coincidence maybe, but it looks awful.

Remove Vote

Vote Denul

Lets take a nice long look at why the GL WIFOM needs to be removed from the game shall we. Since obviously you are obfuscating the damage that WIFOM has done to town and will continue to do to town if left in the game.

Well there was the last game when scum left a fucking announced healer alive all game for the simple fact the WIFOM that him being alive generated allowed them to win.

Vengeance, on 04 June 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 04 June 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Gaah, I was right about everything except there being one scum. I bet Tatts' wife that Eloth was town and luckily he now gets to keep his wife. That distancing was so good.


Inane - great game, don't beat yourself up about revealing healer, that wasn't an error, 9/10 people would have done the same. The error was in not lynching you earlier (but mostly in not finishing off the Barghast lynch)


Unfound - sooo unlucky to get Fener in your first game haha! There was a time, in the very misty past, when the Fener alt regularly turned out to be scum, so it became a default to suspect the Fener alt early on. You should check out the Tyrant Steve game (might be called something different) where the mod Twelve made Fener into the big bad who everyone knew was scum from the off, but couldn't get to before identifying and lynching his henchmen

Yes Inane there was nothing wrong with the reveal you did good to hold to your guns. You needed to be lynched before D day to remove possible WIFOM.

The name of the Tyrant Steve game is The Hamlet.

Then there was this game when scum used a screwed up nonmodkill to keep someone alive and caste WIFOM all over our faces.

Blend, on 09 April 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Congrats Scum. Sorry bout giving up at the end there Town (I was Denul) but I was just discouraged and saw no way out of the constant barrage of crap pointed my way for the non modkill.

Do you want me to go on. Because it just goes on and on and on and on. Every single time town has ignored blatent WIFOM scum have cruised to victory. Now if that gets me lynched then so be it. I stand by that assessment. I can not think nor name one game in the last 100 were town was better off for leaving someone who generated WIFOM in the game. It doesn't matter if the original case on GL was shit or not. We are past that. What matters is that he was taken down to l-2 with another player with under an hour left in the game and wasn't lynched. Someone who didn't give a CF was (I assume town). When you look at his failed lynch. There are several players who come out and basically state I will not vote for this person. What member of town does that? And it is more then one player. Come on.

[Eloth]

The meat of Ampelas' case, for me, is this.

Denul, on 23 June 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Barghast, on 23 June 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Denul, on 23 June 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Barghast, on 23 June 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Day one Page four Denul looks to be extra helpful, posting vote counts and post counts and points a finger at Atrahal for having low content. Denul's posts have been high up to this point, as he shows us, he was the top poster up to this point.



He then wants to push against the low posters, so he definitely has a game plan.

Not only that but people were finding the Pallid/Denul exchange rather scummy and opting to vote for Pallid over Denul.

Did I vote for Atrahal? Did I say that we should lynch a low poster on day 1? Umm no. I stated that Atrahal hadn't made anything other then a opening post. *Sarcasm* That is a brilliant game plan if I ever saw one. *Sarcasm*

*Sarcasm*My god I can control how other people view the game and how they vote!! At last the power is mine. Beware all other players! *Sarcasm*

Your seriously stretching to reach for anything aren't you. Your stawmanning case making is a bit weak though.

The quote is right there, why mention it if you didn't view it as vote worthy? You brought attention upon him by saying so, and the posts before that, showing post count, then showing how little time we have left, you cast line and was hoping for some people to bite so that you can lead a lynch on a known town player. No one bit, and therefore you left it. Enough to miss the end of day? You decide, but there's evidence that supports what I say, and you call it strawmanning to downplay the fact that it was and is scummy

It was day 1. I see a lot of things that are scummy. I don't bother to vote for all of them. I just point them out to keep them in the back of my head as I go through the game thread in later days. The only evidence is the evidence that you are trying to put there. I haven't lead a lynch on anyone. I have voted for a couple of people and that is it.

And what it (edited from 'is') says is, I coasted along. That's damning.
I am willing to switch if people don't see what I see in Barghast. I'll be on for two hours but EoD is at 6 AM for me, I won't make that. If I switch to Denul, then unless something significantly changes, I'll be hot on Barghast's ass against tomorrow.

EDITED FOR GRAMMAR, see red text.

This post has been edited by Eloth: 24 June 2014 - 12:51 PM

[Shinrei]

It is Day 3, 12 hours and 50 minutes are left in the Day.

9 players are alive.

Ampelas, Barghast, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Hood's Path, Liosan, Nimander Golit, Sukul Ankhadu

3 votes Denul: Barghast, Ampelas, Sukul Ankhadu
2 votes Barghast: Eloth, Galayn Lord
1 votes Galayn Lord: Denul

Players not voting: Hood's Path, Liosan, Nimander Golit

This post has been edited by Shinrei: 24 June 2014 - 01:55 PM

[Denul]

I was going back over yesterdays lynch. Because unlike what some people think that is the only real evidence that we have in this game. Who was voting for whom and why.


So here is Nimander on and not to enthusiastic about voting for GL but willing to lynch him to get the lynch.

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Like I said, I'll vote GL if it's necessary for the lynch, but I'd just as soon not vote for him. The case against him is a load of shit, as far as I am concerned. You're all just latching on to the easy lynch for no good reason.

Here is Amp coming on and agreeing that the case on GL is crap.

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Like I said, I'll vote GL if it's necessary for the lynch, but I'd just as soon not vote for him. The case against him is a load of shit, as far as I am concerned. You're all just latching on to the easy lynch for no good reason.

Strongly agree that the GL case is BS, I don't see it at all.

Now is where it gets interesting. Ampelas seems to be saying that it is better to have no lynch then for GL to vote for himself. What kind of town says that no lynch is better then a lynch.

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 20 June 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

Barghast, on 20 June 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

You hammering yourself is no good for town, if you are town, if you are town then you should aim to stay alive.

It takes me out of the equation. No lynch today just makes tomorrow D1 pt. 3 with two NKs having taken place.

Or Day 2 with 2 dead town, after all, how often do Day 1 lycnhes actually hit scum?

Just keep it together and ride it out.

At this point GL is at l-1. Nimander seems like he is looking for an excuse to just get a lynch.

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I have to go for lunch, my stomach is growling like a crazed animal! Should I just hammer GL then?

Now Here is AMP bring up future WIFOM. This is not town behavior nor town decision making. Look at that we have lost so many games due to WIFOM that who would say the below quote. That is some of the most blatant damming shit I have seen.

Ampelas, on 20 June 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 20 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I have to go for lunch, my stomach is growling like a crazed animal! Should I just hammer GL then?

Let them get over their insecurity about not having perfect knowledge, the only WIFOM surrounding GL as far as I'm concerned is "Is he scum playing REALLY well at being town? Or just good town?"

As far as I am concerned here, kaschan is a better target.

Now through all of that HP was around and finally had enough of people not hammering GL and removed his vote and voted for Kaschan. Barghast and Amp where all over the place trying to keep GL alive. Why? Also why try to eliminate and get in front of the next days WIFOM. That smacks of full scale panic mode.

[Ampelas]

Denul, on 24 June 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Do you want me to go on. Because it just goes on and on and on and on. Every single time town has ignored blatent WIFOM scum have cruised to victory. Now if that gets me lynched then so be it. I stand by that assessment. I can not think nor name one game in the last 100 were town was better off for leaving someone who generated WIFOM in the game. It doesn't matter if the original case on GL was shit or not. We are past that. What matters is that he was taken down to l-2 with another player with under an hour left in the game and wasn't lynched. Someone who didn't give a CF was (I assume town). When you look at his failed lynch. There are several players who come out and basically state I will not vote for this person. What member of town does that? And it is more then one player. Come on.

Yes, it does matter. There are other people who we can actually take a serious look at and based on past behaviour choose to lynch them. You just said here you don't want to kill him for any other reason that he is alive now. That is bullshit.

Here you go again with the fucking WIFOM generation. Shin EXPLICITLY STATED that we will get scum CFs when scum die. The question was asked again by SA and I quoted shin's post AGAIN. Stop trying to make us doubt things that we have concrete information of.

Only 1 person has said they will not vote for him. A few people have said they will not for him YET, pretty big difference there. What kind of player tries to keep someone alive and not have them self vote? The kind that thinks someone is behaving more like town than another viable option to lynch.