[Binder of Demons]

Since someone had to start it, and PG was complaining about others not discussing it already, fire away here with the discussion of Skin Game.

I thought the book was pretty good, but kinda lacked something of the coherence of the last 3 books, which I enjoyed immensely. I understand why he used the flashback as a narrative device (as a nod to how many a heist movie reveals how the cross/double-cross occurred), but it felt a bit weird to me.

Really enjoyed the scene between Dresden and Hades, and am curious to see if he will become a more active participant in the remaining books (could he have another aspect like Vadderung?). Even though the scene seemd quite stand-alone, I think it's likely as we've seen Harry accumulate powerful allies throughout the series, and this would give him access to another realm to mess around with.

I didn't really like the way Butters was portrayed in this book, seemed off. And i especially didn't like the bit with the sword. Though thst does explain a nagging issue I had with the swords being so different in type (could never figure how we had a japanese sword for a sword of the cross, but I guess that's kind of explained now).

I did like the various members of the team, though I had forgotten who Anna Valmont was. I am intrigued by the Goodman Grey character. He's definitely going to be showing up in the coming books.

So, question. Why was Tessa trying to interfere with Nicodemus' plan? Was it because she knew Deirdre's role in it?



I'll leave it there for now, so others can give their opinions of the book and begin asking questions. I deliberately kept the first post sufficiently vague so if someone still manages to ignore the thread title, they won't fall into an immediate spoiler info dump.



One major positive for me was that Butcher managed to avoid referring to Molly's training bra for the first time in about 4 books. Becomes really annoying (and kinda creepy on re-reads).


THERE WILL BE SPOILERS AHEAD

[polishgenius]

Unlike Binder, I won't be keeping this all that vague. So be warned.


It is a little less smooth than the previous books, for me- a lot of it felt like getting things into place for the future, with the actual heist almost a side-note. Still, it's a strong concept to build a story around and it's all a lot of fun.

New characters: Hades was great, obviously. Goodman Grey was fun, but he's essentially the same person as Kincaid. Ascher was rather obviously a tool-for-the-job type, and lacked development, but she was okay.

The returnees were much stronger. Much appreciated development for Nic. Butters becoming a Knight was great, and so blatantly the right choice in hindsight. His actual role in the plot felt a bit forced at times, but I think out of everyone in the supporting cast he'd be the most likely for it, so... And Michael getting a last hurrah was nice to see.



Plot thoughts:

Nic getting his hands on the grail: it's going to kick off the 'apocalyptic trilogy', isn't it? By the current pattern and plan we have one more Nicodemus book due before the finale, and it's the last book in the main series. We're starting to gear up...

The parasite seemed dealt with rather abruptly, but it's going to be great to see where we go with this.

Gentleman Johnny has now become basically a major supernatural middleman. Let's be honest, he is by some distance the most badass character in this series. Harry's hostility to him seems almost petty at the moment, since he's so clearly, while a ruthless gang lord, (a) a force for good in the greater picture and ( far more effective at his job than Harry is. I mean, Mab and Hades both respect him and make plans with him.

The normal-talking guy trapped in Demonsreach at the beginning - that's Merlin, isn't it. I can't wait till that prison gets explored more, to be honest.




Parkour!

[Binder of Demons]

polishgenius, on 27 May 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Parkour!

BITCH!!!!


I enjoyed that bit.

I assumed that the normal talking guy in Demonreach is the original Merlin as well.

I hadn't thought of the rule of 5, for Nico's reappearance, and the kicking off point for the apocalyptic trilogy but it does look that way. My main question regarding Nico at the moment is, does he know about Nemesis? It was the first thought that came to mind, when Dresden asks Deirdre about why she's helping Nico, and she says "We're trying to save the world". Are the Denarians as susceptible to corruption from Nemesis as anyone else?


And my other big question is about Mr. Sunshine. I can't help but get the feeling that there will be some follow on from his passing his angelic grace on to Michael, even temporarily. Will it lead to his fall. I'm saying yes. And subsequent redemption.

[Illuyankas]

Yeah I was wondering about the ramifications for his little airliner stunt.

The good news is that Lasciel and Ursiel are now both trapped inside Hades' vault, Maggie has an ethereal poltergeist sister to play pranks with and HARRY AND MURPHY FINALLY GOT TOGETHER FUCKING HOO BLOODY RAY

Any suggestions for the identity of the knife? I'm pretty sure on the rest.

e: How bout the power to knock a cop over from two yards away, with MIND BABIES?! That's telegenesis Murphy.

e2: I'm trying to work out which entity would be the worst possible choice for a coin, and now I'm wondering if any of the remaining Dragons with a D would deign to use one

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 27 May 2014 - 04:02 AM

[Starling]

Pure Dresdencrack. It's so good.

I really enjoyed this one. It was super fun. Loved Michael laying the smackdown on Harry, loved the reunion with Maggie and Mouse, loved the absolute jaw-dropping audacity of Harry being 'pregnant'.

I'm assuming that Tessa was against the mission because she knew about Deirdre's role in it, which would explain why she stood with Nic at the end. But it seems like something more than that too, she had something personal against Harry particularly, what she said in the vault seemed to point to that. She blames Harry for something in particular.

The Holy Grail held the blood of Christ, yes? So it would suggest that the knife had something to do with drawing that blood, just as the rest of the relics were part of the death and resurrection of Christ.

I hadn't thought of that voice in Demonreach being Merlin, that leads to some very interesting ideas. I hope that's something that is developed more later.

[Cause]

For the Love of Dresden! It's a Tuesday. Don't you people have jobs, school? Its not fair!!!!!!!!

[Illuyankas]

I have a job, it starts at 6:15pm, four hours of sleep can be ignored so hard. Also get out before you read something you regret!

[Binder of Demons]

Cause, on 27 May 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

For the Love of Dresden! It's a Tuesday. Don't you people have jobs, school? Its not fair!!!!!!!!

Hey, I managed to buy this on Friday, and then showed the restraint to not read it until Saturday!!!!

But, that might be because my bedside light is broken. If i had got an electronic version I may have given in immediately and read through the night.

[polishgenius]

Starling, on 27 May 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

The Holy Grail held the blood of Christ, yes? So it would suggest that the knife had something to do with drawing that blood, just as the rest of the relics were part of the death and resurrection of Christ.

The one notable drawing of Christ's blood is when His side is pierced on the cross, and in the traditions, that's the Spear of Destiny/Holy Lance, not a knife.
It's difficult to say if that's what the Holy Grail was supposed to have caught, though, since (unlike every other major Crucifixion relic), there's absolutely no basis whatsoever for the Grail in scripture (it sometimes gets conflated with the Holy Chalice from the last supper, but they aren't the same thing).

As a Catholic I have no idea what it was meant to be, but a quick read-around suggests it might be something to do with the bread at the last supper - although there's no indication that a knife was used there, either, in the scriptures, and there's no major object associated with such. I'll be interested to see what people come up with/if Butcher ever confirms what it is.

I'm surprised, to be honest, that Butcher didn't go with any of the nails as a relic.

I have to say, I did think it was a teeny bit of a cop-out that Butcher suddenly went 'nope, that wasn't the real Shroud, THIS is'. It seemed like a late addition to the

[Binder of Demons]

polishgenius, on 27 May 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Starling, on 27 May 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

The Holy Grail held the blood of Christ, yes? So it would suggest that the knife had something to do with drawing that blood, just as the rest of the relics were part of the death and resurrection of Christ.

I'm surprised, to be honest, that Butcher didn't go with any of the nails as a relic.

I thought that the three swords were made around each of the nails from the cross? I'm pretty sure that is stated in one of the previous books.


As to the holy grail, I really had no clue as to what it's supposed role was, and had conflated it in my mind with the holy chalice/last supper.

[polishgenius]

Binder of Demons, on 27 May 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I thought that the three swords were made around each of the nails from the cross? I'm pretty sure that is stated in one of the previous books.

You're right. I'd forgotten that.

Quote

As to the holy grail, I really had no clue as to what it's supposed role was, and had conflated it in my mind with the holy chalice/last supper.

A lot of people do, including some of the major works that right about it I gather, to be fair. One common story being that Joseph of Arimethea took the Chalice and used it to catch the blood of Christ as he cleaned him in preparation for burial.

Whatever tradition Butcher is drawing on, I do appreciate that he depicts the Grail as a simple vessel and not some ornate, gold-and-jewels centerpiece.

[Illuyankas]

That tradition being Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

[Chance]

Found it fairly entertaining but there was just something about it that was less then most of the earlier installments. Perhaps it was just that a heist story follows certain rules actually making the aware less likely to be truly surprised.

Anyway there was still several really nice scenes Hades, Uriel and some others.

All in all I like a bit more resolution of events rather then drawing things out for half of forever, something which really has changed with the four last books and seems to be even more pronounced in this one. There really are a lot of plot threads hangining and not all that much is happening except a couple of paragraphs about each. All in all the new information in this one is so scant I don't even see a way to make informed theories about where we are going next except it may or may not be time for some fomor stomping and as noted above the grail will kick of the apocalpyse somehow.

Still I'll probably as usual like the audiobook better kind of a trend for the last few.

This post has been edited by Chance: 27 May 2014 - 02:08 PM

[amphibian]

People, you're missing the big thing: Harry and Lasciel's spirit love child is now trapped in a skull demense with Bob.

[Stormcat]

Jim is going to be here signing books tonight.

[Obdigore]

amphibian, on 27 May 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

People, you're missing the big thing: Harry and Lasciel's spirit love child is now trapped in a skull demense with Bob.

Umm... I believe the spirit love child is in the second container that bob made harry swear to make.

[Starling]

Cause, on 27 May 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

For the Love of Dresden! It's a Tuesday. Don't you people have jobs, school? Its not fair!!!!!!!!

Tuesday is my one day with no classes And even then, I had to wait most of Tuesday for the book to arrive, because of the time difference between here and America.

polishgenius, on 27 May 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Starling, on 27 May 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

The Holy Grail held the blood of Christ, yes? So it would suggest that the knife had something to do with drawing that blood, just as the rest of the relics were part of the death and resurrection of Christ.

The one notable drawing of Christ's blood is when His side is pierced on the cross, and in the traditions, that's the Spear of Destiny/Holy Lance, not a knife.
It's difficult to say if that's what the Holy Grail was supposed to have caught, though, since (unlike every other major Crucifixion relic), there's absolutely no basis whatsoever for the Grail in scripture (it sometimes gets conflated with the Holy Chalice from the last supper, but they aren't the same thing).

As a Catholic I have no idea what it was meant to be, but a quick read-around suggests it might be something to do with the bread at the last supper - although there's no indication that a knife was used there, either, in the scriptures, and there's no major object associated with such. I'll be interested to see what people come up with/if Butcher ever confirms what it is.

I'm surprised, to be honest, that Butcher didn't go with any of the nails as a relic.

I have to say, I did think it was a teeny bit of a cop-out that Butcher suddenly went 'nope, that wasn't the real Shroud, THIS is'. It seemed like a late addition to the

Yeah, I agree about the Shroud, and there just didn't seem to be any point to it.

It was mentioned in the book (by Michael, maybe?) that the Grail was used to collect the blood of Christ. Guess my Catholic upbringing is deserting me!

Possibly Brent Weeks, on 28 May 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

amphibian, on 27 May 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

People, you're missing the big thing: Harry and Lasciel's spirit love child is now trapped in a skull demense with Bob.

Umm... I believe the spirit love child is in the second container that bob made harry swear to make.

Yup. Bob is still in his own skull, as far as we know. It does bring up an interesting point though; will Harry introduce his new baby to Bob? Will Bob take advantage? CAN he take advantage? What are the mechanics of intellectus sex, and would it matter that she is essentially a baby, even if she is growing fast enough that she looks about 12 to Harry? Will Bob be her mentor? How much has she learned from Harry, and more importantly, Lash?

[Obdigore]

Starling, on 28 May 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

Yup. Bob is still in his own skull, as far as we know. It does bring up an interesting point though; will Harry introduce his new baby to Bob? Will Bob take advantage? CAN he take advantage? What are the mechanics of intellectus sex, and would it matter that she is essentially a baby, even if she is growing fast enough that she looks about 12 to Harry? Will Bob be her mentor? How much has she learned from Harry, and more importantly, Lash?

I'm more interested in 'did Bob lie to Harry about his 'fears' to get Harry to make a new home for the love child he suspected harry had?'

edit: Also, do we know how long its been since Lash went spirit-shield for Harry's grey matter? Could it have actually been 12 years already?

This post has been edited by Possibly Brent Weeks: 28 May 2014 - 04:16 AM

[Obdigore]

(doublepost)

No one is really asking what Hades got out of it... seems like his collection of 'dangerous weapons' now has a pair of Nickelheads in it...

I wonder if his storage is more secure than that of the church.

[Starling]

Possibly Brent Weeks, on 28 May 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

Starling, on 28 May 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

Yup. Bob is still in his own skull, as far as we know. It does bring up an interesting point though; will Harry introduce his new baby to Bob? Will Bob take advantage? CAN he take advantage? What are the mechanics of intellectus sex, and would it matter that she is essentially a baby, even if she is growing fast enough that she looks about 12 to Harry? Will Bob be her mentor? How much has she learned from Harry, and more importantly, Lash?

I'm more interested in 'did Bob lie to Harry about his 'fears' to get Harry to make a new home for the love child he suspected harry had?'

edit: Also, do we know how long its been since Lash went spirit-shield for Harry's grey matter? Could it have actually been 12 years already?

Nope, pretty sure Harry says the werewolf stuff is about 12 years ago. Lash must be later than that.