[Alkend]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

That Serc is asking if he has any symps out there

and you are responding that you think there is at least one

[Tiamatha]

I'm fairly sure everyone who played the last game is playing now, and you can go suck aforementioned bag of ducks if you think I'm going trawling through 5 or 6 games looking for a quote for you for a claim I've made and another player has confirmed they have remembered.

[Okral Lom]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 15 April 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

I can think of several day one signalling cases that have come good for the town.

the very last game we played

one about 5/6 back when Maccy handed the town his scum on a player, so your bag of ducks can go suck on itself

By all means, go find it/quote it and we shall see.

Question though - what sort of cases do come good for town on the first day? This feels like a game with symps in it to me. The oft-publicised one killer, likely multiple scum situation from the OP, and the way that the game was originally designed with factions in mind. So we should be looking for player connections and what we can glean from them (IMO, obviously). And that grows out of signalling and the cut-and-thrust that comes with attacking and defending people.

I'm not interested hearing any more defensive posts from you - they don't add anything at this juncture because the nature of Day 1 is that there really isn't all that much to attack/defend. If you want some attention from me, then come up with something else or else I'm just going to tune you out.

[Shadow]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 14 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

checking in

I was hoping for more like a 7.2 from you...that was barely a 2.9! /terrible earthquake joke

That is a terrible earthquake joke. It's so bad that it gave me tremors.

signalling?

Hey look, someone uses the phrase "terrible earthquake joke" and then someone else replies to it using the exact same phrasing, and tiam questions it as signaling! Rikkter and me must each be half of the predator Kenshiro!

Why would you suggest that there are paired killers in the game? That just seems like a slip up to me.

[Lock]

Tiamatha, on 15 April 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure everyone who played the last game is playing now, and you can go suck aforementioned bag of ducks if you think I'm going trawling through 5 or 6 games looking for a quote for you for a claim I've made and another player has confirmed they have remembered.

Don't drag me into this. I also said that one of your claims was incorrect

[Denul]

Anyways, so that's the end of my catch-up. Why was it so big and long when it probably didn't need to be? Well there's been quite a few accusations against my behaviour:


1. I am defending Serc

I feel like this is simply due to Alkend and his "I will read you with non-townie eyes" policy. All I did was explain parts of the theme to a player who was not familiar with it, and then note parts of the OP and try to extrapolate game mechanics from them. In so doing, I proved that Serc's idea of a lone Kenshiro was wrong. But that does not mean I need to immediately then pounce upon him and be 101% convinced he is scum. I have made bad assumptions about game mechanics based on OP scenes before, too. Why would I want to discourage anyone from talking about the game mechanics by jumping all over them for not knowing something outside the OP? And yet, that is exactly what everyone seems to have done, and I think it is stupid. Alkend chooses to interpret me thinking it is stupid as scummy, but it's actually me trying to be a reasonable player that actually wants to have something to talk about in this game beyond a billion contrived day 1 signaling accusations.


2. I am being signalled by Serc / Korabas

Well, there's not much I can do to outright disprove that. I think those signaling accusations are extremely weak, and I guess I'll have to restrain myself from posting anything but ZEE MOST ZUPER ZERIOUZ MAFIA SRSZ BIZNESS content on day 1 ever again to avoid it. But part of the reason for my huge catch-up was that I knew it would produce lots of additional interaction that you can all now analyze, as well.


3. I am too laid back / too silly / did not respond to signaling accusations / etc

As I've said, I thought nothing of the Serc reaction to my Yuri post while I was online, and was offline by the time these giant signaling accusations and discussions were being thoroughly bandied about. Somehow this eluded people like MO who accused me of brushing it off by my lack of presence. I am most certainly not doing so, and I will absolutely defend myself against any accusations of being scum. The scale of my catch-up and responses is proportional to how full of shit and strawmanning I feel this particular accusation was, especially coming from MO who has wasted far more time in frivolity than me, but accuses me of being too silly.


At this point, do I think Serc is likely scum? Not really, I think he made an honest query/suggestion and then simply responded to a joke post that was never meant to be taken as contentful, and everyone just piled onto him for it. That being said, I don't know for sure that he isn't scum, and as the more reasonable voices have already pointed out he is the most connected to all the other accusations that have flown about today. If he remains, we will talk about nothing else for the next 2 days. So, I will be voting Serc today as well, and I do hope he is lynched, but more because of damage control than because I think the cases on him merit it.

Vote Serc

[Eloth]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

Well, you were not "the one who posted that Kenshiro cannot be alone in the first place" as you said, indicated by the quotes below.

I mention this because this was the main thing that stood out to me between you and Serc:

Serc, on 14 April 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Eloth, on 14 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 14 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

checking in

I was hoping for more like a 7.2 from you...that was barely a 2.9! /terrible earthquake joke

That is a terrible earthquake joke. It's so bad that it gave me tremors.

signalling?

Are you serious right now?

Isn't this what happened last game?

I'm yet to read the wiki, but does the Kenshiro guy even have allies to signal him? he strikes me as the save the world loner type of guy

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I don't have a lot of time to post today so you probably won't hear from me again for the next few hours at least, but I promise I will give the OP a read at some point

For whomever was speculating about Kenshiro being alone upthread, IIRC he has a girlfriend who is kidnapped by one of the villains but still loves him, so that could be a potential symp role.

These posts are barely 20 minutes apart and there are only like 5 posts between them. It does almost look like a response from you back to Serc. I realize you've said you were just posting rapidly or something, but now you're saying that you were the one suggesting Kenshiro is alone, when above you are actually saying the opposite in response to Serc (by saying Kenshiro probably has allies). So which is it, that you were the first to suggest Serc's comment, or that you disagree with it?

[Lock]

Shadow, on 15 April 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 14 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

checking in

I was hoping for more like a 7.2 from you...that was barely a 2.9! /terrible earthquake joke

That is a terrible earthquake joke. It's so bad that it gave me tremors.

signalling?

Hey look, someone uses the phrase "terrible earthquake joke" and then someone else replies to it using the exact same phrasing, and tiam questions it as signaling! Rikkter and me must each be half of the predator Kenshiro!

Why would you suggest that there are paired killers in the game? That just seems like a slip up to me.

Haha lol, is this serious? Really?

[Alkend]

Almost lunch time here, and afternoons are hectic for me. I don't know if I will be able to post much in the next few hours. I am happy with my vote of Serc and it will stay there for now. I will be on before time out if I am needed for a vote.

[Okral Lom]

I'm at work for a couple more hours, but when I get done I'll start doing some digging. I feel like there's some interesting stuff hidden in the last few pages, just got to find it.

[Denul]

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

That Serc is asking if he has any symps out there

and you are responding that you think there is at least one

I really don't understand what you're trying to express anymore...



My claim, that I was the first to prove Kenshiro cannot be alone:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I was the one who posted that Kenshiro cannot be alone in the first place!

Lie.

You call it a lie.

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

To expand on that, Serc is in hot bother for suggesting such a thing and yet you are now claiming it?

No, Serc suggested that Kenshiro IS alone. My claim is that I was first to prove that Kenshiro CANNOT be alone. With this post:

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 April 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Victory Conditions

Town: Eliminate Kenshiro

Scum: Achieve majority OR Kenshiro kills the 3 warlords. If a warlord is lynched, it does not count toward this VC, which becomes null.

This makes me think that there are other scum roles beyond Kenshiro.

I think you've flipped Serc's claim and my rebuttal of it in your head.

[Eloth]

Ok, cross post with Denul there... Now that you've voted Serc, can you explain why you strongly claimed earlier that you were the first to post about "Kenshiro being alone" and how that reconciles with the post that you were responding to Serc with (intentionally or not - he was the one who raised the question that you answered)?

[Lock]

I think something needs to be pointed out here. Yesterday, PS came on to say that by majority he means parity also - so whether Kenshiro is alone or not has not in my mind been proved either way.

[Denul]

Okral Lom, on 15 April 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 15 April 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

I can think of several day one signalling cases that have come good for the town.

the very last game we played

one about 5/6 back when Maccy handed the town his scum on a player, so your bag of ducks can go suck on itself

By all means, go find it/quote it and we shall see.

Question though - what sort of cases do come good for town on the first day? This feels like a game with symps in it to me. The oft-publicised one killer, likely multiple scum situation from the OP, and the way that the game was originally designed with factions in mind. So we should be looking for player connections and what we can glean from them (IMO, obviously). And that grows out of signalling and the cut-and-thrust that comes with attacking and defending people.

I'm not interested hearing any more defensive posts from you - they don't add anything at this juncture because the nature of Day 1 is that there really isn't all that much to attack/defend. If you want some attention from me, then come up with something else or else I'm just going to tune you out.

We, and by we I mean the general mafia-playing populace on these forums, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS think there should be symps in the game. Look at the last game - we day 1 lynched a scum and HE CF'D AS SCUM and we were still arguing for days afterwards that he was actually a symp, or that he was not scum at all, etc etc. And in the end, there were no symps in the game at all.

To use Serc's own example from page 2 or so, Khell's Name of the Rose game was just one lone killer against a dozen RIs, which would normally be extremely unbalanced, and the only way D'rek lasted to the end was because the town spent five striaght days arguing about really flimsy signalling cases.

I don't want to turn this into some sort of the oldies are better mafia players rant or anything, but as things are right now we spend waaaaay too much time arguing about signalling and it is almost always to the detriment of town. When you play mafia in person, you never go on huge hunts for symps, you usually just ignore them but keep your suspicions up, because that's how you get them to reach too far and give away their killer. Jumping onto every single fucking post and calling it a possible signal right away just puts the scum hackles up and they simply won't signal, will sit back and let town witchhunt themselves and come out smelling of rose-scented dicks.

[Alkend]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

That Serc is asking if he has any symps out there

and you are responding that you think there is at least one

I really don't understand what you're trying to express anymore...



My claim, that I was the first to prove Kenshiro cannot be alone:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I was the one who posted that Kenshiro cannot be alone in the first place!

Lie.

You call it a lie.

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

To expand on that, Serc is in hot bother for suggesting such a thing and yet you are now claiming it?

No, Serc suggested that Kenshiro IS alone. My claim is that I was first to prove that Kenshiro CANNOT be alone. With this post:

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 April 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Victory Conditions

Town: Eliminate Kenshiro

Scum: Achieve majority OR Kenshiro kills the 3 warlords. If a warlord is lynched, it does not count toward this VC, which becomes null.

This makes me think that there are other scum roles beyond Kenshiro.

I think you've flipped Serc's claim and my rebuttal of it in your head.

Ah, I read that wrong. Still the three posts (two from Serc and one from you) look bad. Regardless of who said what first. I thought you were claiming to have said it first which would have been a lie.

[Denul]

Lock, on 15 April 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Shadow, on 15 April 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 14 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

checking in

I was hoping for more like a 7.2 from you...that was barely a 2.9! /terrible earthquake joke

That is a terrible earthquake joke. It's so bad that it gave me tremors.

signalling?

Hey look, someone uses the phrase "terrible earthquake joke" and then someone else replies to it using the exact same phrasing, and tiam questions it as signaling! Rikkter and me must each be half of the predator Kenshiro!

Why would you suggest that there are paired killers in the game? That just seems like a slip up to me.

Haha lol, is this serious? Really?

Unfortunately, I think he is 100% serious. I am frightened.

[Denul]

Eloth, on 15 April 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

Well, you were not "the one who posted that Kenshiro cannot be alone in the first place" as you said, indicated by the quotes below.

I mention this because this was the main thing that stood out to me between you and Serc:

Serc, on 14 April 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Eloth, on 14 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 14 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 14 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 14 April 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

checking in

I was hoping for more like a 7.2 from you...that was barely a 2.9! /terrible earthquake joke

That is a terrible earthquake joke. It's so bad that it gave me tremors.

signalling?

Are you serious right now?

Isn't this what happened last game?

I'm yet to read the wiki, but does the Kenshiro guy even have allies to signal him? he strikes me as the save the world loner type of guy

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I don't have a lot of time to post today so you probably won't hear from me again for the next few hours at least, but I promise I will give the OP a read at some point

For whomever was speculating about Kenshiro being alone upthread, IIRC he has a girlfriend who is kidnapped by one of the villains but still loves him, so that could be a potential symp role.

These posts are barely 20 minutes apart and there are only like 5 posts between them. It does almost look like a response from you back to Serc. I realize you've said you were just posting rapidly or something, but now you're saying that you were the one suggesting Kenshiro is alone, when above you are actually saying the opposite in response to Serc (by saying Kenshiro probably has allies). So which is it, that you were the first to suggest Serc's comment, or that you disagree with it?

I said I first proved Kenshiro CANNOT be alone. Alkend said I lied about that. I don't know how this became about me saying Kenshiro IS alone - something I never said and do not claim to have said!

[Eloth]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

That Serc is asking if he has any symps out there

and you are responding that you think there is at least one

I really don't understand what you're trying to express anymore...



My claim, that I was the first to prove Kenshiro cannot be alone:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I was the one who posted that Kenshiro cannot be alone in the first place!

Lie.

You call it a lie.

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

To expand on that, Serc is in hot bother for suggesting such a thing and yet you are now claiming it?

No, Serc suggested that Kenshiro IS alone. My claim is that I was first to prove that Kenshiro CANNOT be alone. With this post:

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 April 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Victory Conditions

Town: Eliminate Kenshiro

Scum: Achieve majority OR Kenshiro kills the 3 warlords. If a warlord is lynched, it does not count toward this VC, which becomes null.

This makes me think that there are other scum roles beyond Kenshiro.

I think you've flipped Serc's claim and my rebuttal of it in your head.

Ok, actually this is much clearer than I thought. I either misread or misunderstood you, because it seemed as if you were contradicting yourself before.

[Denul]

Lock, on 15 April 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

I think something needs to be pointed out here. Yesterday, PS came on to say that by majority he means parity also - so whether Kenshiro is alone or not has not in my mind been proved either way.

From a town consideration of game mechanics perspective, yes we now have to just think of parity.

But from a "Serc said this then Denul said this then Aranatha said this!" perspective it stands as it was.

[Denul]

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Did you have a followup to that post Alkend?

Because it sure looks to me like you are confirming my point for me...

That Serc is asking if he has any symps out there

and you are responding that you think there is at least one

I really don't understand what you're trying to express anymore...



My claim, that I was the first to prove Kenshiro cannot be alone:

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I was the one who posted that Kenshiro cannot be alone in the first place!

Lie.

You call it a lie.

Alkend, on 15 April 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

To expand on that, Serc is in hot bother for suggesting such a thing and yet you are now claiming it?

No, Serc suggested that Kenshiro IS alone. My claim is that I was first to prove that Kenshiro CANNOT be alone. With this post:

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 April 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Victory Conditions

Town: Eliminate Kenshiro

Scum: Achieve majority OR Kenshiro kills the 3 warlords. If a warlord is lynched, it does not count toward this VC, which becomes null.

This makes me think that there are other scum roles beyond Kenshiro.

I think you've flipped Serc's claim and my rebuttal of it in your head.

Ah, I read that wrong. Still the three posts (two from Serc and one from you) look bad. Regardless of who said what first. I thought you were claiming to have said it first which would have been a lie.

Ok, glad that's cleared up, I was very confused. As for the italicized... that's just, like, your opinion, man