[Galayn Lord]

Serc, on 15 April 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 15 April 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

<Snip>

We, and by we I mean the general mafia-playing populace on these forums, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS think there should be symps in the game. Look at the last game - we day 1 lynched a scum and HE CF'D AS SCUM and we were still arguing for days afterwards that he was actually a symp, or that he was not scum at all, etc etc. And in the end, there were no symps in the game at all.

To use Serc's own example from page 2 or so, Khell's Name of the Rose game was just one lone killer against a dozen RIs, which would normally be extremely unbalanced, and the only way D'rek lasted to the end was because the town spent five striaght days arguing about really flimsy signalling cases.

I don't want to turn this into some sort of the oldies are better mafia players rant or anything, but as things are right now we spend waaaaay too much time arguing about signalling and it is almost always to the detriment of town. When you play mafia in person, you never go on huge hunts for symps, you usually just ignore them but keep your suspicions up, because that's how you get them to reach too far and give away their killer. Jumping onto every single fucking post and calling it a possible signal right away just puts the scum hackles up and they simply won't signal, will sit back and let town witchhunt themselves and come out smelling of rose-scented dicks.

Ok, Yeah for all Denuls hooting and holering this is a really sound statement for Town? Maybe the best I've heard in a couple of games despite it coming from a player I'm struggling to read. We spend too much time trying to assume scum slipped up and in doing so prevent scum doing enough to build a decent case on them.

Any of the more vocal players on here can be scum really. Thanks to town drowning out cases its a huge garbled mess, painful to read through. I had a few ideas for cases but really I'm not going to try straighten all that thread spaghetti. Again I say how about we keep it focused?

Occams Razor has proven invaluable day 1. Simple cases work out. Serc has such a simple case on him. I'd like to address that.

Serc: I want to hear what you thinks about players accusing you. There was that odd speculation that only one Scum existed, based off the OP? I suggested the FotNS lore proved otherwise but also Denul engaged you directly and "corrected" you making his own conclusions from the OP.

I recall your speculation was intended to get scum onto you, exposing themselves? for me, this is a poor excuse for poor posting but giving you the benefit of a doubt Has any such player in your opinion showed up?

Who exactly fits that bill in your opinion?

My vote on you relies on a reply proving your methods, without one, bad speculation is costing town dearly. It led up to all 4 pages of cross arguments. I want to know if it had any substance. you're our best lynch if it didn't.

Player accusing me--Alkend, mostly. He is eager, but accepts his mistakes (see the lasty page of him and Denul). don't get a scum vibe.

Brown Bear (the T'lann Imass names are confusing): he latched on to me after Korabas allegedly symped me. That is a much weaker argument, imo. given how much joking around he did before, it's suspicious. Day 1 gut, but that's where I'd look-he suddenly got super-serious and started to actively push for some pretty weak cases.

Denul-he's defending me, and himself. Not doing a great job-he brings a lot of attention to himself, and then votes me, so as to "sever" any ties. it'd make some sense if I was to CF scum, but I'm not. For the rest of you, you can try "testing him" by lynching me, but me, knowing how I'll CF, I can't really say one way or the other.




As for "me attracting scum to myself"-that is a motive that was attributed to me, one that I denied. I was honest-my motive for that post was Day 1 Monday laziness, and basically asking someone who read the wiki provided to point out if there are any "scum"-sounding roles in the FotNS lore.

wrt to "has anyone showed up?"-although I didn't intent to bait anyone, Brown Bear's involvement strikes me as odd. I'd also like to vote Kesso, but that's cuz he only posted once, and in math at that.

Not bad for a reply.

TBH I don't think keeping you on would be wise. I do think you raise some good points here, I've been keen to hear more from the above for similar reasons. I think Denul is the first port of call after we get your CF, which honestly seems the right play for town. We need to know whats happening with one of you and Denul seems the more logical choice to keep on day 2 IMO, others might disagree. I'm voting Serc because honestly that reply and your CF sets us on the right path. Nothing personal.


Vote Serc

If someone thinks a better case could be made without Sercs CF I'm actually happier following that.

[Monok Ochem]

Ridcully: Haha, that little hissy-fit of Denul's reminds me of many of yours Dean. Goodness, nothing like a good tantrum to get the spirits out. Hehe... ::wipes tears away::

Dean: Tantrums? Master Ridcully, I may be expressive at times, but I never...

Ridcully: Yes yes, I'm sure I was mistaken Dean. Now, STTTTIIIBBBONSSS!!! What do you and the ape have for us.

Ponder: Yes sir. Well, I have been..

OOK!

Ponder: Er, we have been reviewing the "posts" and must confess that Master Denul is not looking any better to us. Whether or not Master Serc was "symping" Master Denul is rapidly becoming irrelevant. Master Denul's reaction, however is strange to saw the least. There is quite a bit of, what would you call it... Oh My God You Suck flying about, with bags of male.... er... knobs... I mean members.. floating about, but such bluster really belies how important Master Denul feels he is. The scorn, sarcasm, and finally case making seem to be a scramble, grasping at straws, so to speak, that can be interpreted as an angry town-member...

OOOOHH AAHHHAHH OOOOOHHH

Ponder: No not that kind of member!

Ook.

Ponder: Sigh... I guess I'm rambling. To sum it up: I...we think that Denul has been caught inadvertently, whether or not Serc was actually signalling, and is now desperately trying all the tricks in the book to escape the lynch, which includes, but is not limited to: Sarcasm, scorn, ignoring points, raging, performing the so-called dkt analysis of the thread, focusing on Serc while avoiding the cases on themselves, etc. The main thing that caught the Librarian's eye was the joke about needing to read up on the OP. This is not consistent with a RI, but rather someone who knows the OP better than we can due to a little extra something in their Role PM.

OOK!

Ponder: Our vote stays where it is, as the Librarian just emphasized.

[Shadow]

I hate to admit it but I agree with Monkey boy.

[Ampelas]

Shadow, on 15 April 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

I hate to admit it but I agree with Monkey boy.

To an extent I do too, I think my vote will be on one of the two, leaning slightly towards Denul but happy either way.

[Galayn Lord]

Shadow, on 15 April 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

I hate to admit it but I agree with Monkey boy.

To be honest my meta has Denul playing alot like I expect which usually means he is playing sincere. It may also mean some biased lynching is underfoot.

I would like to be certain Denul deserves the vote becuase I know some amongst us have their own back lying agendas.

[Monok Ochem]

OOOOK OOK EEEK!!

Ponder: Ok, ok, Librarian. Please calm down. This post below is what we are particularly distressed by:

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Anyways, so that's the end of my catch-up. Why was it so big and long when it probably didn't need to be? Well there's been quite a few accusations against my behaviour:


1. I am defending Serc

I feel like this is simply due to Alkend and his "I will read you with non-townie eyes" policy. All I did was explain parts of the theme to a player who was not familiar with it, and then note parts of the OP and try to extrapolate game mechanics from them. In so doing, I proved that Serc's idea of a lone Kenshiro was wrong. But that does not mean I need to immediately then pounce upon him and be 101% convinced he is scum. I have made bad assumptions about game mechanics based on OP scenes before, too. Why would I want to discourage anyone from talking about the game mechanics by jumping all over them for not knowing something outside the OP? And yet, that is exactly what everyone seems to have done, and I think it is stupid. Alkend chooses to interpret me thinking it is stupid as scummy, but it's actually me trying to be a reasonable player that actually wants to have something to talk about in this game beyond a billion contrived day 1 signaling accusations.


2. I am being signalled by Serc / Korabas

Well, there's not much I can do to outright disprove that. I think those signaling accusations are extremely weak, and I guess I'll have to restrain myself from posting anything but ZEE MOST ZUPER ZERIOUZ MAFIA SRSZ BIZNESS content on day 1 ever again to avoid it. But part of the reason for my huge catch-up was that I knew it would produce lots of additional interaction that you can all now analyze, as well.


3. I am too laid back / too silly / did not respond to signaling accusations / etc

As I've said, I thought nothing of the Serc reaction to my Yuri post while I was online, and was offline by the time these giant signaling accusations and discussions were being thoroughly bandied about. Somehow this eluded people like MO who accused me of brushing it off by my lack of presence. I am most certainly not doing so, and I will absolutely defend myself against any accusations of being scum. The scale of my catch-up and responses is proportional to how full of shit and strawmanning I feel this particular accusation was, especially coming from MO who has wasted far more time in frivolity than me, but accuses me of being too silly.


At this point, do I think Serc is likely scum? Not really, I think he made an honest query/suggestion and then simply responded to a joke post that was never meant to be taken as contentful, and everyone just piled onto him for it. That being said, I don't know for sure that he isn't scum, and as the more reasonable voices have already pointed out he is the most connected to all the other accusations that have flown about today. If he remains, we will talk about nothing else for the next 2 days. So, I will be voting Serc today as well, and I do hope he is lynched, but more because of damage control than because I think the cases on him merit it.

Vote Serc

Ponder: There are more of the inconsistencies we are used to seeing by now found in this post. If Master Denul is town, we'd assume there to be less of a self-preservation bent, and more of a helpful quality to the posts. While this may not be true of many players, townie or otherwise, what convinces us of aberrant behavior is the vote on Master Serc, particularly in light of the last full paragraph where Master Denul clearly states that Master Serc is very unlikely scum. In fact, despite the ties being made between Master Serc and Master Denul, the cases on them seem to be running largely parallel, as if there is a divide over the players themselves, not the links between them.

Ponder: I... we have seen several posts from others (like Master Korabas and Master Lock) that actively detract from Denul but end in a vote for Serc. I find this very strange, given how little justification is given for votes on Serc. There is too much defensiveness swirling around these two, and I am beginning to suspect that one of them (Master Denul) has several supporters actively trying to rescue their main man. I don't know if others have noticed, but Serc is nearly lynched.

[Monok Ochem]

Galayn Lord, on 15 April 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Shadow, on 15 April 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

I hate to admit it but I agree with Monkey boy.

To be honest my meta has Denul playing alot like I expect which usually means he is playing sincere. It may also mean some biased lynching is underfoot.

I would like to be certain Denul deserves the vote becuase I know some amongst us have their own back lying agendas.

NARRATOR: (COMING OUT OF CHARACTER) META IS NOT ALLOWED IN MAFIA GAMES OF RANDOMLY-ALTED DESIGN. ATTEMPTING TO DERAIL AND/OR THROW ASPERSION ON A CASE DUE TO META IS REPREHENSIBLE AND AT MINIMUM POOR FORM. IF YOU SUSPECT THIS CASE TO BE ANYTHING BUT IN ERNEST, TAKE IT UP WITH PATHSHAPER IN YOUR PM'S, NOT ON THREAD.

[Monok Ochem]

Ridcully: Thank you Ponder, my good man, I'll take it from here.

oooookkk......

Ridcully: I know Librarian, Ponder can get off track so easily. He's been working hard and needs a break, and as the head man here, I feel obliged to fill in. So you scallywags with the quote content posted below, what makes you think a Serc lynch will clear Denul. I, and I'm sure even the Librarian, do not follow your logic.

Eloth, on 15 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Serc, on 15 April 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I will laugh so hard if I get to SH and there is, in fact only a killer.

As someone unfamiliar with Pratchett's work, was there any meaning to MO's eeking and ooking, or were those just generic monkey noises?

Is this all you are going to say about the discussion surrounding you? I assumed you would have some sort of analysis or rebuttal. With Denul's vote, he's pushed the lynch in your favor over his own - 4 votes Serc, 3 votes Denul now, if I'm not mistaken. We need what, 9 to lynch? And only like 5 hours left on the clock. Depending on who shows up (and who doesn't - Alk basically said he isn't moving his vote), we may have problems with numbers. But it's going to be interesting if Denul's vote is what swings the lynch away from him onto you.

Right now I'm inclined to vote Serc - I'm hoping it will clear up things with Denul, in addition to all of the signalling confusion. I also don't like the lack of response from you, Serc. Are you around or what?

[Monok Ochem]

Ridcully: PAAAATTTTHHHSHAPER! Would you be so kind as to post a vote update? My hat off to you good sir!

[Denul]

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Ridcully: Haha, that little hissy-fit of Denul's reminds me of many of yours Dean. Goodness, nothing like a good tantrum to get the spirits out. Hehe... ::wipes tears away::

Dean: Tantrums? Master Ridcully, I may be expressive at times, but I never...

Ridcully: Yes yes, I'm sure I was mistaken Dean. Now, STTTTIIIBBBONSSS!!! What do you and the ape have for us.

Ponder: Yes sir. Well, I have been..

OOK!

Ponder: Er, we have been reviewing the "posts" and must confess that Master Denul is not looking any better to us. Whether or not Master Serc was "symping" Master Denul is rapidly becoming irrelevant. Master Denul's reaction, however is strange to saw the least. There is quite a bit of, what would you call it... Oh My God You Suck flying about, with bags of male.... er... knobs... I mean members.. floating about, but such bluster really belies how important Master Denul feels he is. The scorn, sarcasm, and finally case making seem to be a scramble, grasping at straws, so to speak, that can be interpreted as an angry town-member...

OOOOHH AAHHHAHH OOOOOHHH

Ponder: No not that kind of member!

Ook.

Ponder: Sigh... I guess I'm rambling. To sum it up: I...we think that Denul has been caught inadvertently, whether or not Serc was actually signalling, and is now desperately trying all the tricks in the book to escape the lynch, which includes, but is not limited to: Sarcasm, scorn, ignoring points, raging, performing the so-called dkt analysis of the thread, focusing on Serc while avoiding the cases on themselves, etc. The main thing that caught the Librarian's eye was the joke about needing to read up on the OP. This is not consistent with a RI, but rather someone who knows the OP better than we can due to a little extra something in their Role PM.

OOK!

Ponder: Our vote stays where it is, as the Librarian just emphasized.

Well, that's rather frustrating.

So, MO's original case (on me, not his original case on Serc), was predicated on me being a (not-online) "laid back, unenaged" poster. And then, when I come online and give him a ton of very-much-engaged rebuttals, now I am apparently "throwing a hissy fit" and the collective reasoning and responses I have spent quite a bit of time posting can just be dismissed with a cursory glance lest they upset his delicate temperament.

Oh, and MO absolutely need not respond to any of the questions I levied back at him in my responses, that would be far too beneath him. Rest assured, MO will continue as he is until day 10 and win town the game all on his own by continuing to be an aloof monkey who simply tosses whatever behavioural observations he has forward with a 'scum' tag attached.

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

The main thing that caught the Librarian's eye was the joke about needing to read up on the OP. This is not consistent with a RI, but rather someone who knows the OP better than we can due to a little extra something in their Role PM.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

You can't express and acknowledge that something is a joke and then also take it completely seriously/at face value.

You can have either:

a - I was making a joke about not reading the OP because so many players have said similar things (and bitten them in the ass a couple times) in the last half-a-dozen games (particularly since Ghoul Gulch). The tongue-out smiley at the end of this joke was made to further reinforce the fact that it is a joke. You acknowledge it is a joke. Har har har it has no deeper meaning.

or

b - I was not joking. I was super serious and really wanted everyone to believe that I had not read the OP (even though I had!) and this was very important that everyone know this. The tongue-smiley was a typo. For some reason despite being the predator superduperroled I felt the need to call attention to myself by seriously stating that I had not read the OP. You correctly called me out on it.


but it makes absolutely no sense to have:

ab - I was both joking and not because I am superduperroled scum who likes to call attention to themselves but also to make everyone laugh. You correctly both noted that the post is a joke and also called me out on it. There is no confusion in this.

[Denul]

Since people seem to have a problem understanding my sarcasm this game, MO I really do want a follow-up to your "case" on me, based on my comments on it. Because, you know, I think it is shit. I'd like to see some actual justification/reasoning for how you think the points you've levied correspond to me being a likely scum in your book.

[Denul]

That above post was not sarcastic, I really do want a genuine response.

[Denul]

That post wasn't sarcastic either.

[Denul]

You get the idea...

[Monok Ochem]

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Ridcully: Haha, that little hissy-fit of Denul's reminds me of many of yours Dean. Goodness, nothing like a good tantrum to get the spirits out. Hehe... ::wipes tears away::

Dean: Tantrums? Master Ridcully, I may be expressive at times, but I never...

Ridcully: Yes yes, I'm sure I was mistaken Dean. Now, STTTTIIIBBBONSSS!!! What do you and the ape have for us.

Ponder: Yes sir. Well, I have been..

OOK!

Ponder: Er, we have been reviewing the "posts" and must confess that Master Denul is not looking any better to us. Whether or not Master Serc was "symping" Master Denul is rapidly becoming irrelevant. Master Denul's reaction, however is strange to saw the least. There is quite a bit of, what would you call it... Oh My God You Suck flying about, with bags of male.... er... knobs... I mean members.. floating about, but such bluster really belies how important Master Denul feels he is. The scorn, sarcasm, and finally case making seem to be a scramble, grasping at straws, so to speak, that can be interpreted as an angry town-member...

OOOOHH AAHHHAHH OOOOOHHH

Ponder: No not that kind of member!

Ook.

Ponder: Sigh... I guess I'm rambling. To sum it up: I...we think that Denul has been caught inadvertently, whether or not Serc was actually signalling, and is now desperately trying all the tricks in the book to escape the lynch, which includes, but is not limited to: Sarcasm, scorn, ignoring points, raging, performing the so-called dkt analysis of the thread, focusing on Serc while avoiding the cases on themselves, etc. The main thing that caught the Librarian's eye was the joke about needing to read up on the OP. This is not consistent with a RI, but rather someone who knows the OP better than we can due to a little extra something in their Role PM.

OOK!

Ponder: Our vote stays where it is, as the Librarian just emphasized.

Well, that's rather frustrating.

So, MO's original case (on me, not his original case on Serc), was predicated on me being a (not-online) "laid back, unenaged" poster. And then, when I come online and give him a ton of very-much-engaged rebuttals, now I am apparently "throwing a hissy fit" and the collective reasoning and responses I have spent quite a bit of time posting can just be dismissed with a cursory glance lest they upset his delicate temperament.

Oh, and MO absolutely need not respond to any of the questions I levied back at him in my responses, that would be far too beneath him. Rest assured, MO will continue as he is until day 10 and win town the game all on his own by continuing to be an aloof monkey who simply tosses whatever behavioural observations he has forward with a 'scum' tag attached.

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

The main thing that caught the Librarian's eye was the joke about needing to read up on the OP. This is not consistent with a RI, but rather someone who knows the OP better than we can due to a little extra something in their Role PM.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

You can't express and acknowledge that something is a joke and then also take it completely seriously/at face value.

You can have either:

a - I was making a joke about not reading the OP because so many players have said similar things (and bitten them in the ass a couple times) in the last half-a-dozen games (particularly since Ghoul Gulch). The tongue-out smiley at the end of this joke was made to further reinforce the fact that it is a joke. You acknowledge it is a joke. Har har har it has no deeper meaning.

or

b - I was not joking. I was super serious and really wanted everyone to believe that I had not read the OP (even though I had!) and this was very important that everyone know this. The tongue-smiley was a typo. For some reason despite being the predator superduperroled I felt the need to call attention to myself by seriously stating that I had not read the OP. You correctly called me out on it.


but it makes absolutely no sense to have:

ab - I was both joking and not because I am superduperroled scum who likes to call attention to themselves but also to make everyone laugh. You correctly both noted that the post is a joke and also called me out on it. There is no confusion in this.

Ridcully: Cases change, my dear man, as more evidence comes in. To address your first concern, initially, your mannerisms bespoke on who was trying to balance a day 1 levity with day 1 usefulness. You did seem to be trying, but also attempting to remain unnoticed by what has been called "middling" play. Unfortunately for your designs, Serc's own rambunctious behavior besmirched your game, and scrutiny came down upon you, largely due to our monkey's careful assessments.

Ridcully: Now, the case against you stands because of your following response! You did throw a hissy-fit my dear sir (bags of dicks are synonymous with such antics), please don't insult me or my loyal Librarian by saying otherwise. Several others called you out upon it, so unless you want to put your dukes up and have a go, let it stand.

Ridcully: You also claim that my dear Librarian is flip-flopping, being unsatisfied with your increased presence and thoughtfulness, to which I'd reply Dragon Shit. Furthermore, I question what queries you have leveled at the Librarian. He would like too reply to such slander.

Ridcully: POOOONDDER!!!! Could you be so kind as to explain the last bit. I think I need a breather.

Ponder: Yes Sir. So Master Denul, the second segment of your post seems to imply that there is only a singular purpose to your OP "joke," which is rather simplistic don't you think? I mean, there are numerous interpretations to many seemingly simple remarks thanks to the absence of vocal inflection and context to such text based responses. Therefore, joking about not reading the OP could be easily interpreted several ways, most of which would be in your favor, such as it being funny that someone so astute and helpful as you would even say something as such. If you weren't joking, it would also be in your favor, being a busy RI needing a chance to reflect upon powers one does not have. The problem lies in even implying such things, trying to establish yourself as not worth the notice, or worth the notice as a good solid player. Either implication is designed to buoy your position and try to develop people's view of you. Such statements are not black and white, which is why your attention has been called to the statement.

Oook.

Ponder: Oh, and the Librarian would also like to point out that cases, good one's that is, go well beyond just reading text. There is context and behavior requiring accounting, and discounting such cases is foolish or manipulative.

[Monok Ochem]

Ook!

Ponder: Er, yes Librarian. I misspoke. Here are the aforementioned questions directed at him and his responses, in interpreted orange below.

Denul, on 15 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

<s, and aside: fuck these stupid monkey translators, every goddamn MO post is a pain in the ass to quote, effectively dampening his caseworthiness from laziness, not what I would consider good townie play>


Sorry, so here's the the short of it. Master Denul, not Master Serc, is at the heart of this. Here is what the Librarian has ascertained:

Spoiler

Ponder.png

: First of all, Master Denul announced himself in the standard, provocative manner. Interestingly enough, as the Librarian pointed out, this manner quickly degenerates into base tomfoolery, making light of the last game's fake signalling, and a humorous switchero with a male picture where there ought to have been a more, er, beautiful lady. The quote (third below in the amazing MultiQuote device) that bothered him and myself the most was a comment about absence, not reading the OP, and speculation on a "symp" girlfriend. Quite the post for someone seemingly unengaged. Then Master Serc seems to "signal" closely followed by Master Korabas, and then it all just falls apart from there. But it comes back to Master Denul, don't you see? Master Denul's seemingly simple and easy going posts seems flippant, maybe even elusive, especially in context.


<s>

Denul, on 14 April 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I don't have a lot of time to post today so you probably won't hear from me again for the next few hours at least, but I promise I will give the OP a read at some point

For whomever was speculating about Kenshiro being alone upthread, IIRC he has a girlfriend who is kidnapped by one of the villains but still loves him, so that could be a potential symp role.

<s>

So two posts after MO pleads for a re-focus from Korabas onto the scum master Serc, he changes his mind again and now wants to re-focus on me. I find his reasoning outrageously stupid and hypocritical though:

1. "First of all, Master Denul announced himself in the standard, provocative manner." --> uh, I said "checking in" how in the fuck is that either provocative or scummy? The Librarian was trying to point out how you entered the game in a very standard manner, checking in, making jokes, not saying much, provocative in pointing out Inane Babble and casting early aspersion on signaling.

2. "Interestingly enough, as the Librarian pointed out, this manner quickly degenerates into base tomfoolery, making light of the last game's fake signalling, and a humorous switchero with a male picture where there ought to have been a more, er, beautiful lady." Oh noes I made a joke on day 1 and engaged in "tomfoolery"... oh wait you're the one fucking posting ooks and aaaks with a bunch of spoilered discworld pictures, which is far far more 'tomfoolery' than me. And yet you want this case to be taken seriously? The Librarian is generally insulted that you think his assessments are tomfoolery. Just because you cannot understand him does not mean there is no content within his Oooks and Eeeks.


3. "The quote that bothered him and myself the most was a comment about absence, not reading the OP, and speculation on a "symp" girlfriend. Quite the post for someone seemingly unengaged." Does-not-have-a-lot-of-time-to-post is not at all the same as unengaged. I only had two 30-minute chunks to post in at first, but I provided information from my memory about the theme, pointed out something in the OP that aided the current mechanics discussion and made an educated speculation on the scum team makeup (as well as several jokes, yes). You, on the other hand, spent your entire first several hours of the game just making stupid fucking oookk posts just to be annoying and then flip-flopped between crappy symp-master accusations within 10 seconds. So who is really "unengaged" ? Again, the Librarian would remind you that the first scrutiny you received was from his esteemed ooks and eeks. People at the time were looking a Serc. And unengaged in that you were middle-roading, and while providing thoughts about game mechanics, the Librarian would refer you back several games where scum attempted similar helpful townie behavior, but did so in a little too eager of a manner, and was fortunately caught. He knows how such distinctions are subtle and easy to blow off, but these are in the larger context of your overall gameplay.


4. "Then Master Serc seems to "signal" closely followed by Master Korabas, and then it all just falls apart from there. But it comes back to Master Denul, don't you see? Master Denul's seemingly simple and easy going posts seems flippant, maybe even elusive, especially in context." unlike your horde of ookk posts that are neither flippant, nor elusive, right? But nevermind that. Why wouldn't my posts be "simple and easy going" ? You say this like it is soooo terrible and scummy, but when have simple and easy going posts on day 1 ever been considered a marker for scum? The Librarian points out that behavioral analysis has been picking up steam quite frequently of late. Scum is not so easily caught by slip ups, but rather behavioral quirks that bespeak someone desperate to go unnoticed and unsuspected. The more elusive or the more townie, the more suspicious, turning the traditional outmoded paradigm on its head. To say that easy going is sole property of townie play is putting blinders on (yourself or others so to speak).

[Denul]

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

RidcullyCases change, my dear man, as more evidence comes in. To address your first concern, initially, your mannerisms bespoke on who was trying to balance a day 1 levity with day 1 usefulness. You did seem to be trying, but also attempting to remain unnoticed by what has been called "middling" play. Unfortunately for your designs, Serc's own rambunctious behavior besmirched your game, and scrutiny came down upon you, largely due to our monkey's careful assessments.

If I were trying to be "middling" (a term I still argue has little-to-no meaning at this juncture, because every mafia game is different and hence every mafia game has a different "middle" which cannot be defined as early as 18 hours/60 posts into the game), then why would I call attention to myself at all? Look at GL - has few but cold posts that cut straight to the heart of things. No one will call him out for coasting and he's not on anyone's radar. If I were scum looking to hide, why call attention to myself and help town with extra information?

On the other hand, what is so wrong with being "middling" ? Must the thread be solely composed of low-posters and thread leaders? It is day 1 - levity is entirely appropriate. Commenting on the OP and theme are also appropriate behaviour for a townie who wishes to help other townies learn more previously-unknown information about the game, and yes it is useful else there'd be no point in sharing it. So, because I do two things that are generally considered to be appropriate and useful to town on day 1, that makes me scum?

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Ridcullyow, the case against you stands because of your following response! You did throw a hissy-fit my dear sir (bags of dicks are synonymous with such antics), please don't insult me or my loyal Librarian by saying otherwise. Several others called you out upon it, so unless you want to put your dukes up and have a go, let it stand.

RidcullyYou also claim that my dear Librarian is flip-flopping, being unsatisfied with your increased presence and thoughtfulness, to which I'd reply Dragon Shit. Furthermore, I question what queries you have leveled at the Librarian. He would like too reply to such slander.

Actually, the flip-flopping accusation I levied was in reference to you making successive symp-master cases on Serc then on me in subsequent posts.

See post 181 for the picking-apart-with-queries (most of which seem sarcastic but I really do want a response).

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

PonderYes Sir. So Master Denul, the second segment of your post seems to imply that there is only a singular purpose to your OP "joke," which is rather simplistic don't you think? I mean, there are numerous interpretations to many seemingly simple remarks thanks to the absence of vocal inflection and context to such text based responses. Therefore, joking about not reading the OP could be easily interpreted several ways, most of which would be in your favor, such as it being funny that someone so astute and helpful as you would even say something as such. If you weren't joking, it would also be in your favor, being a busy RI needing a chance to reflect upon powers one does not have. The problem lies in even implying such things, trying to establish yourself as not worth the notice, or worth the notice as a good solid player. Either implication is designed to buoy your position and try to develop people's view of you. Such statements are not black and white, which is why your attention has been called to the statement.

In that case, why shouldn't everyone read just as deeply into your librarian shenanigans. If my little OP joke was a superduperserious attempt to make people think I am inconsequential when I am really roled, wouldn't that mean your continued librarian shenanigans are an even bigger attempt to make yourself look like a silly RI when you must be even more roled?

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

PonderOh, and the Librarian would also like to point out that cases, good one's that is, go well beyond just reading text. There is context and behavior requiring accounting, and discounting such cases is foolish or manipulative.

Well duh. But its not enough to just say "Denesmet is angry ergo he's scum!" You have to actually reason WHY a certain behaviour = scum. You have not done so, you've just said that I am, IYO, "laid back and unengaged" which is both extremely debateable, and even if taken as fact does not automatically equate to scum the way you seem to think it is.

[Denul]

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

And unengaged in that you were middle-roading, and while providing thoughts about game mechanics, the Librarian would refer you back several games where scum attempted similar helpful townie behavior, but did so in a little too eager of a manner, and was fortunately caught. He knows how such distinctions are subtle and easy to blow off, but these are in the larger context of your overall gameplay.

I will absolutely call you on this. I can't think of a single case of this, so since you seem so certain I challenge you to go find an example or two.

[Okral Lom]

Alright, I've had a thread read and had a think, and unfortunately it's looking like a Denul or Serc lynch today. I don't think either of them rate out as any more than an average candidate (by which I mean essentially they've suffered from the luck of the draw).

That being said, they've been discussed to death and that discussion is not particularly interesting, so I'm going to point out a few things about some of the other players instead.

I'll start off with the player who interests me most at the moment: Monoch Ochem (henceforth MO). And that's not just for the Librarian RP.

I made an (admittedly weak) case on Korabas, and was immediately met by two responses from someone other than Korabas (which seemed surprising). There was a query about my logic from Bek Okhan (henceforth BO) and a surprisingly vigorous rubbishing from Monoch Ochem (henceforth MO). BO's interest seemed legit, but MO put quite a bit of time into attempting to disparage all those associated with the case:

Here he is initially (I've snipped the flavour text and the pictures for clarity) implying that the aggressive players (at that point myself and Tiamatha) are over-stepping their bounds:

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

What the Librarian is trying to say is that the response to the vote on Master Korabas was a little sudden and aggressive. The Librarian is not so sure that at this stage of Day 1 "antics" such a case should garner such heat.
:
Now Librarian, I also thought that Master Tiamatha also seemed particularly aggressive as well...
:
What I'm saying is that Master Tiamatha seems to be jumping the musket, so to speak.

And again trying to sow suspicion on those who hold any weight in my case on Korabas:

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Now, what he wanted to express is that from the history of past games, signalling cases are kind of in a hang up, so to speak. They can't be discounted because of a couple of games back, but given that bloke Tatt's show last game, we all have to be wary. Now, seems to me, and the Librarian, that there is two sides to this coin, so to speak. We got a group really looking mean and hard into that Serc fellow, but harder in to his so called "symp" Korabas, or maybe that was Denul being the ringleader, I'm already getting turned around.
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But here's the thing gentlemen: that Korabas fellow puts a little too much weightiness on the Serc "situation" to be trying to interrupt the show. The lack of conviction in that wishy-washy post itself is the problem, and I'll bet bananas to peanuts that the people playing up that post are more trouble than the guy posting the post himself.
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So the question I have is why are we arsing about spending so much bloody time or Korabas when if he's the so-called symp, we ought to be focusing on Serc! I think this is all smoke and mirrors, and really, we ought to be testing by stringing up that Serc fellow, or maybe one of the supposedly upright citizens trying so valiantly to make a case on them!

So that's two posts devoted to making sure that the Korabas case is buried. In the process of doing so, he finds himself saying we should lynch Serc instead, despite previously making disparaging comments about the motives of Tiamatha in starting the case in the first place.

Then we come to his case on Denul. It seems to consist wholly of the over-aggressive clutching at straws Tiamatha and myself employed earlier. Here is the text of his argument - again I have snipped out the RP and the quoted posts themselves, which he doesn't analyze properly:

Monok Ochem, on 15 April 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

Master Denul announced himself in the standard, provocative manner. Interestingly enough, as the Librarian pointed out, this manner quickly degenerates into base tomfoolery, making light of the last game's fake signalling, and a humorous switchero with a male picture where there ought to have been a more, er, beautiful lady. The quote (third below in the amazing MultiQuote device) that bothered him and myself the most was a comment about absence, not reading the OP, and speculation on a "symp" girlfriend. Quite the post for someone seemingly unengaged. Then Master Serc seems to "signal" closely followed by Master Korabas, and then it all just falls apart from there. But it comes back to Master Denul, don't you see? Master Denul's seemingly simple and easy going posts seems flippant, maybe even elusive, especially in context.
:
(QUOTED POSTS)
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Vote Denul.

Now, let's get to the meat of that case...oh wait, there isn't any. An inconsistency in seriousness between posts is possibly the flimsiest argument constructed this year.

So basically MO's play last night was an inconsistent mess that he hid behind his posting style. He was very strongly trying to rebut and discredit arguments against another player (Korabas) by dismissing others as aggressive, but then turned around and posted one of the most powderpuff cases in the history of powderpuff cases! And somehow it worked.

So MO and by extension Korabas are the players I find the most suspicious at this point and I will be looking at them with a fine-tooth comb tomorrow.

[Tiamatha]

dinner eaten. Should be here sporadically until time out.

first order of business, MO's librarian shit is incredibly frustrating to have to read through, please fucking stop.



time left is? I'm guessing around the 4/5 hour mark.

I'm happier with my denul vote tbh but a serc CF will clear a lot up