[Mekeritrig]

So, I've been trying to nail down how Tiste Andii names/family stuff works. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

You have family naming elements which are passed on from generation to generation: Nimander Purake --> Anomander; Andarist --> Nimander Golit; the andr* element is passed on throughout.
Sandalath Drukorlat --> Korlat retains the Korlat* element. The problem here is that unlike the previous example, it is an element of the family name that is passed on, rather than a personal name. Additionally, Orfantal has no family element in his name.

The clearer observation is that names are passed in gender-specific lines. The child seems to take a naming element from the parent whose gender it shared. This doesn't explain the personal name-family name dynamic we see in Korlat.

Another question: why is Nimander Golit not Nimander Purake? He is recognized as a son of Anomander, so he's legitimate (unlike Orfantal). One might assume that Golit is related to the the other parent. I seem to recall that that is Lady Envy, though I'm not sure if that's implied or explicit... or just wrong.This would mess up the gender-specific naming thing if true.

[Defiance]

I may be wrong, but I can't think of a single instance where related Tiste Andii have the same last name. My memory of Forge of Darkness is extremely hazy, however.

Just consider: Anomander Rake/Silchas Ruin. If two brothers with the same mother and father don't share the same last name, it's not really a surprise that Andii children (at least in Rake's and most likely Korlat's case) don't share the last name. The Korlat thing is just a guess, but I don't think she's named Korlat Drukorlat.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 10 April 2014 - 03:54 AM

[Grondo]

Defiance, on 10 April 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

I may be wrong, but I can't think of a single instance where related Tiste Andii have the same last name. My memory of Forge of Darkness is extremely hazy, however.

Just consider: Anomander Rake/Silchas Ruin. If two brothers with the same mother and father don't share the same last name, it's not really a surprise that Andii children (at least in Rake's and most likely Korlat's case) don't share the last name. The Korlat thing is just a guess, but I don't think she's named Korlat Drukorlat.

Spinnok and Cryl Durav

[Aptorian]

Regarding Anomander Rake and Silchas Ruin.

The family name is Purake. If you look at the Dramatis Personae in Forge of Darkness, under House Purake it lists: Anomander, Silchas Ruin and Andarist among others under Purake. Spelled out like that. Which suggests one of two things. Either Silchas Ruin has two first names, like for example Danish naming traditions like Hans Peter or Anne Marie, and his full name is actually Silchas Ruin Purake or Silchas Ruin is not directly blood related to Anomander Purake but probably comes from another family and was taken into Anomanders family for some political reason or a token of appreciation and his family name is Ruin.

I don't know, I don't recall if there is a direct mention of Anomander and Ruin having the same mother and father.

We have to remember that a lot of the things we had assumed about the brothers Dark's family relations have gone out the window.

This post has been edited by Apt Hoc: 10 April 2014 - 01:18 PM

[worry]

Or Ruin really is the English word "ruin", and isn't so different from Tulas "Shorn". Pretty cool nickname.

[Tiste Simeon]

Like "Hey, my name is Dave Destruction."

[D'rek]

Maybe "Golit" means something like junior or "the 2nd", so he is named Nimander the Second after his grandfather?

For that matter, maybe all the second parts of their names mean something, so if Purake means "the Valiant" then many members of the Purake household use the name itself - Nimander the Valiant, Anomandaris the Valiant - while others within the household use different second names - Silchas the Flowerpicker, Andarist the Diaperwearer (no wonder he always just goes by "Andarist"). And it is just a personal choice whether to use the family name+meaning or make up a new one, especially among the nobility when everyone knows who is from what household anyways.

[Gorefest]

worry, on 10 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Or Ruin really is the English word "ruin", and isn't so different from Tulas "Shorn". Pretty cool nickname.

I thought the 'Shorn' bit only cropped up later, presumably during/after the events that will play out in the Kharkanas trilogy? Because in FoD he is only referred to as Kagamandra Tulas, not Tulas Shorn, IIRC. So I assumed that it was somehow related to the 'shearing'/casting out ritual of the Edur, and Kagamandra will somehow acquire this nickname due to actions that may be touched upon in the Kharkanas trilogy. Silchas Ruin on the other hand already has the 'Ruin' part at the start of FoD, implying it is an integral part of his name and not an addition due to a specific event.

[worry]

Yes it's possible it's just his name, but yours is not a definitive argument either way since we've read the books on 21st century Earth, so we know their "nicknames" independent of when they got them. Alexander "the Great" got his nickname well before Michael "King of Pop" Jackson got his, but we can discuss them both without conflict. Timing is irrelevant.

[Gorefest]

In FoD his peers call Sichas Ruin "Silchas Ruin" (I think...?), but they do not call Kagamandra "Shorn". But I guess it is possible that someone might be calling Kagamandra "Shorn" behind his back without us reading about it, so I guess we'll never know for sure.

[worry]

Well my point was that at the time of FOD, Tulas isn't shorn yet so naturally nobody is calling him that, while Silchas is ruining everybody's mood plenty already. It's probably his name though, as he no doubt comes from a long line of sourpusses. His great grandpappy raised ruination on the family farm.

[Mekeritrig]

Fly in the ointment: the name Vatha Urusander. Here we see the *ander element in a last name. It could just mean "man" as it does in Greek (aner, andros). Probably so. There goes my theory. Alas.
And Kagamandra Tulas kills it too. Balls.
So it may just be a masculine onomastic form in the Tiste language.

The Drukorlat-Korlat this is still up for debate though.

[Mekeritrig]

In CG, Nimander is called Nimander Golit Anomandaris. So it seems that there is a patronymic element in formal names, but it's not a part of the given name. But it's the only time that I know of in which it's used.

[Gorefest]

From the horse's mouth (in the TOR DoD reread):

"For me and Cam both, we always went for names the sound or meaning of which we liked and found appropriate. Some arrived as Dickensian (relating to some aspect of the character’s personality), others emerged from extinct or obscure linguistic roots (Nimander, Anomander, Kilmandaros, etc all Sanskrit/Indo-European), but above all, it was down to liking how the names sounded. The T’lan Imass names came from a fairly basic invented language and so all have meanings, but I don’t have the master-list on hand to give you any definitions. We also got into the reversal of syllabic western conventions, loading up the syllables on the first name rather than the second name, since it both rolled and gave a perfunctory quality to it at the end. But all this is just saying the same thing: we liked how the names sounded."

[Mekeritrig]

Cool. One of my undergrad degrees is in Indo-European Linguistics, so the languages and names were always an interesting part of the series for me. Good to know where they stem from.

[Son of Father Light]

Apt Hoc, on 10 April 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Regarding Anomander Rake and Silchas Ruin.

The family name is Purake. If you look at the Dramatis Personae in Forge of Darkness, under House Purake it lists: Anomander, Silchas Ruin and Andarist among others under Purake. Spelled out like that. Which suggests one of two things. Either Silchas Ruin has two first names, like for example Danish naming traditions like Hans Peter or Anne Marie, and his full name is actually Silchas Ruin Purake or Silchas Ruin is not directly blood related to Anomander Purake but probably comes from another family and was taken into Anomanders family for some political reason or a token of appreciation and his family name is Ruin.

I don't know, I don't recall if there is a direct mention of Anomander and Ruin having the same mother and father.

We have to remember that a lot of the things we had assumed about the brothers Dark's family relations have gone out the window.

Er du dansker ?

[Aertheron]

In FoD there are Family Trees in the first pages, among the maps that are also in the book.
It is quite clear that they pass on their last name.

Anomander Rake is actually Anomander Purak
Name changes are quite common in MBotF
so Silchas Purake - Silchas Ruin (ruin probably has a meaning other then being his actual last name)

Nimander was actually the name of Anomanders Father if i'm correct, so it was given to Anomanders first son (i think that was explained in tCG)

[Gorefest]

Aertheron, on 30 July 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

In FoD there are Family Trees in the first pages, among the maps that are also in the book.
It is quite clear that they pass on their last name.

Anomander Rake is actually Anomander Purak
Name changes are quite common in MBotF
so Silchas Purake - Silchas Ruin (ruin probably has a meaning other then being his actual last name)

Nimander was actually the name of Anomanders Father if i'm correct, so it was given to Anomanders first son (i think that was explained in tCG)

Problem is, if I recall correctly, that in the Purake House Silchas is not listed as Silchas, but already as Silchas Ruin. So is he Sichas Purake AKA Silchas Ruin (a 'nickname' so to speak acquired later in life, but if so, why does FoD already refer to him as Silchas Ruin?), or is he Silchas Ruin Purake? Plus there is a bunch of other names in that list that resound with later characters or thier own house, but don't properly match up in a 'traditional' family naming sense (and that's disregarding the hostages). I think I'll just stick to SE's own admission that they just went for whatever "sounds cool".

[Aertheron]

Gorefest, on 30 July 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Aertheron, on 30 July 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

In FoD there are Family Trees in the first pages, among the maps that are also in the book.
It is quite clear that they pass on their last name.

Anomander Rake is actually Anomander Purak
Name changes are quite common in MBotF
so Silchas Purake - Silchas Ruin (ruin probably has a meaning other then being his actual last name)

Nimander was actually the name of Anomanders Father if i'm correct, so it was given to Anomanders first son (i think that was explained in tCG)

Problem is, if I recall correctly, that in the Purake House Silchas is not listed as Silchas, but already as Silchas Ruin. So is he Sichas Purake AKA Silchas Ruin (a 'nickname' so to speak acquired later in life, but if so, why does FoD already refer to him as Silchas Ruin?), or is he Silchas Ruin Purake? Plus there is a bunch of other names in that list that resound with later characters or thier own house, but don't properly match up in a 'traditional' family naming sense (and that's disregarding the hostages). I think I'll just stick to SE's own admission that they just went for whatever "sounds cool".

Whatever sounds cool seems a very reasonable explanation

Then you could just use the Family Trees, to know who are related.

[worry]

Your question still assumes that Silchas Purake couldn't have earned the nickname "Ruin" by the time we see him in FoD. He's a grown man who's fought in war(s) even in that novel.