[Dadding]

It took me a while to get through this one, it was my least favourite overall, which might have something to do with the fact I thought The Dying God was just another name for The Crippled God. I thought they were one and the same and was extremely confused all the way up until Nimander and crew arrive at his temple and we find out he's Bellurdan. Silly me. The last 200-300 pages did give the previous seven a run for their money though. I think I've got the what, where, and who in this book figured out, I'm just confused with the why sometimes.

The Road Well Travelled:
Rake kills Hood, I get it, but then Traveller kills Rake, why? Is Dassem just angry that Rake stole his vengeance? And did Cotillion try to convince him otherwise in their conversation a few pages earlier? Why? I thought Cotillion and Shadowthrone were in on Rake's plan?

Dragnipur, everyone's dying to be invited:
Obviously there was some sort of deal between Rake and Hood. Hood agreed to be killed and to use his legion of the dead to hold off Chaos until Rake could arrive. What does Hood get in return? It doesn't seem like him to do something for nothing. And are Shadowthrone / Cotillion in on the deal too? It seems they're involved in some way, sending their hounds to protect Dragnipur and all that. And on that note, why does everyone want Dragnipur after Rake moves Kurald Galain - wouldn't the sword be powerless? But Spite, Envy, Iskaral, and the Hounds of Light all want it.

Death is in the NeighbourHood:
Hood has to manifest completely so he can die and take his zombie buddies with him, seems simple enough. But he doesn't just waltz right into Darujhistan, he has to be summoned Thordy. Why is Hood so special, why can't he just show up? Other gods have arrived places without summoning. I'm talking about all the elder gods who just strut around in human form all the time. And then there's Poliel who happens to be in the human world, and she's 'manifest' enough to be killed. Cotillion and Shadowthrone go wherever they want without being summoned, so does Dessembrae, and Triss shows up every now and again in and around Y'Ghatan.

Commander Anomander:
All the Tiste Andii are constantly going on about how noble Rake is, how he's taken on a great burden, how he's replaced Mother Dark and stands in her stead, and how they couldn't survive without him. In Toll the Hounds he lives up to that reputation, he sacrifices himself for the good of his people. But before that, he doesn't really seem to be doing anything useful. Sure he's a badass, and sure he gives his bored populace a battle to distract themselves every once in a while. But are the Tiste Andii really so incapable of figuring out what to do with themselves that they need some guy to make all the decisions for them? It just seems like he's given such great praise without really doing much of anything, and I mean it was his fault that they lost their god in the first place. Though apparently that was necessary and Rake planned everything from the start or something. Good for him.

Humble Measure Displeasure:
What happened to this guy? He was all conniving and clever and mysterious, then he tries to get the Bridgeburners killed and then Vorcan, and it seemed like he had some big master plan. I thought it might have just been getting on the council, but he says that he's not just interested in that, he wants to kill certain people, and then it's never really resolved. Is this something that's touched-on again, or is he just a means to an end in terms of plot?

High House Kallor:
Kallor is basically Simba in this novel, he just can't wait to be King. He wants to usurp the Crippled God (or just wait for everybody else to take care of him) and take his place on the Throne of Chains. Why is he going to Darujhistan then? What does seizing the throne have to do with him taking over Darujhistan? I don't get the connection.

Rake's Migralain (too much of a stretch?):
So Rake goes into Dragnipur and accepts Kurald Galain into himself. Supposedly this could only be done by Rake because nobody else had the willpower. By doing this his mum forgives him, and decides to come say hi to her people again. Because she's back, Kurald Galain's home moves to Black Coral. Have I got that right so far? And somehow that allows the Redeemer to do his job and redeem the Dying God? How are the two events connected?

And my shortest question: where did Cutter get that Seguleh lance from?

Now do I read Dust of Dreams? Or do I read Stonewielder first? Or do I read Stonewielder, then OST, then DoD?

I seem to have worn down the writing on my question mark key, but since you've gotten this far, have a picture of a kitten:

[Trull's son]

I'll take a shot at this

It has been too long for me to give an answer to the traveller/rake situation. Someone else will know for sure.

What does Hood get in return: RAFO. Dragnipur is powerful at the time of Rake's death, so it remained valuable. I'm pretty sure that Spite, Envy, Iskaral, and the Hounds of Light were not in on Rake's plan, so how could they know what would happen inside?

As to Hood being summoned, I'm pretty sure there is a difference between a God appearing in a human form and moving around as a physical manifestation (representing maybe a part of the god's presence in the world -- think Bugg, maybe?), and a god being 'actually' in the world and therefore more vulnerable. Think of Fener in this regard. What we see when Heboric pulls him out of his Warren was his full unguarded presence, as far as I know. It might be like a sliding scale where a god can 'manifest' enough of their power in the world to be physically attacked.

As for Rake hero worship, remember he's given them cause to live for hundreds of thousands of years of existence. Also, he chose to lead his people for millenia, whereas we see with other Tiste peoples that their legendary leaders either abandoned them, or are otherwise absent. Rake's a big deal.

Humble Measure shows up in Orb Scepter Throne. RAFO.

Someone else need to tackle that Kallor question.

Yeah I'm not sure about the whole Redeemer connection myself. Or Cutter's lance for that matter... I'm not very good at this.

This post has been edited by Trull's son: 04 April 2014 - 12:04 AM

[worry]

Cutter gets his lance from the undead Seguleh 2nd in TBH.

[Zerv]

Shadowthrone and Cotillion are definitely in on Rake and Hood's plan. As I remember, their part is to use the hounds to guard Dragnipur until Brood can arrive and to convince Dassem that he needs to kill Rake. They promise not to take Dragnipur for themselves, but a certain High Priest made no such promises...

This post has been edited by Zerv: 04 April 2014 - 07:01 AM

[Inane Babble]

Gods are hinted to be strongly intertwined with their realm, even when they travel to WU or other warrens they bring the aspects of their warren with them, think shadowthrones constantly being hidden in shadow, hoods uncontrollable aura of death, poliels poisonous miasma (this may have been hyperbole on CGs part? Dont remember the exact quot ebut it was somerthing like "poliel strides among the enemy army..." He couldn't just "pop" out of his realm completely on his own because he would have suffered the same affliction that Fener did, remember when Heboric pulled him into Wu Feners realm became "empty" and he was cut off from almost all of his power, he was also unable to return to his realm. To keep his attachment to his realm, and thus be able to bring and command the souls in dragnipur, he needed to be brought into Wu in a real enough manifestation to die, while keeping his hold on his power. This was apparently best able to be achieved by the ritual we saw. You may wonder why he didn't just send a manifestation of himself to do the ritual instead of having Thordy and Gaz do it (remember Gaz was also the soldier or knight of death) to which I would say: That IS how Hood acts in, or creates effects in, Wu. By creating his masons and soldiers and knights and virgins to do it under his direction/guidance.



I think a major part of why the Andii revere Rake to such a massive degree is that he showed them an alternative that was superior to their normal or default pattern of behaviour, Anomander Rake does not see any virtue in, and abides no betrayal. Remember virtually ever mention of early Andii history in the series makes mention of endless civil wars and betrayals, they actually sound like dragons in that regard. Until Anomander brings his people together and never, once, goes back on his word in over 300,000 years. He shows them the value of being an honorable people, by exemplifying it and leading by example. That any one man has the vision, will, and strength to change the nature of an entire society (kind of like Gothos in fact) is sufficient reason to view that person with awe in my opinion.



Rakes reunion with Mother Dark showed the Redeemer that there was no breach or gulf or argument too great in any relationship that it cannot be mended if you... are willing to sacrifice for it, or desire reconciliation strongly enough (cant think of a better way to phrase this, it may not make sense?) This is what allows the redeemer to embrace the Dying God and mean it when he blesses him.


This is all just my opinion obviously

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Quote

High House Kallor:
Kallor is basically Simba in this novel, he just can't wait to be King. He wants to usurp the Crippled God (or just wait for everybody else to take care of him) and take his place on the Throne of Chains. Why is he going to Darujhistan then? What does seizing the throne have to do with him taking over Darujhistan? I don't get the connection.

With Kallor, what he truly wants is actually up in the air. I think he would use the House of CHains to get what he wants, but I don't see him as actually ever serving the House. His presence near Drujhistan is likely more to do with the whole convergence drawing him in. A convergence by nature draws power and the powerful, and the one in TtH was a doozy. I don't think he ever wanted to rule Darujhistan, but I am sure he would have certainly hung around during the aftermath to do whatever it is that he wants to do. You can RAFO ICE's later books for more insight into what Kallor is seeking, big picture-wise, but I see Kallor in TtH as coming to terms with his humility. He could have taken the lessons from what Rake did and learned something from them, but as Brood has said in the past, Kallor never learns. And those damn kids STILL won't get off his lawn.

[Dadding]

Trull, on 04 April 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

I'm not very good at this.

Nonsense!

worry, on 04 April 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

Cutter gets his lance from the undead Seguleh 2nd in TBH.

Thanks, found it - page 191 for anyone who's looking.

Zerv, on 04 April 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Shadowthrone and Cotillion are definitely in on Rake and Hood's plan. As I remember, their part is to use the hounds to guard Dragnipur until Brood can arrive and to convince Dassem that he needs to kill Rake. They promise not to take Dragnipur for themselves, but a certain High Priest made no such promises...

IIRC Brood arrives after Dassem kills Rake. He scares off the Sisters, carries Rake to a barrow, and then destroys Dragnipur. But having their hounds guard Dragnipur still makes sense - thanks!

Inane Babble, on 04 April 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Gods are hinted to be strongly intertwined with their realm, even when they travel to WU or other warrens they bring the aspects of their warren with them, think shadowthrones constantly being hidden in shadow, hoods uncontrollable aura of death, poliels poisonous miasma (this may have been hyperbole on CGs part? Dont remember the exact quot ebut it was somerthing like "poliel strides among the enemy army..." He couldn't just "pop" out of his realm completely on his own because he would have suffered the same affliction that Fener did, remember when Heboric pulled him into Wu Feners realm became "empty" and he was cut off from almost all of his power, he was also unable to return to his realm. To keep his attachment to his realm, and thus be able to bring and command the souls in dragnipur, he needed to be brought into Wu in a real enough manifestation to die, while keeping his hold on his power. This was apparently best able to be achieved by the ritual we saw. You may wonder why he didn't just send a manifestation of himself to do the ritual instead of having Thordy and Gaz do it (remember Gaz was also the soldier or knight of death) to which I would say: That IS how Hood acts in, or creates effects in, Wu. By creating his masons and soldiers and knights and virgins to do it under his direction/guidance.

I think a major part of why the Andii revere Rake to such a massive degree is that he showed them an alternative that was superior to their normal or default pattern of behaviour, Anomander Rake does not see any virtue in, and abides no betrayal. Remember virtually ever mention of early Andii history in the series makes mention of endless civil wars and betrayals, they actually sound like dragons in that regard. Until Anomander brings his people together and never, once, goes back on his word in over 300,000 years. He shows them the value of being an honorable people, by exemplifying it and leading by example. That any one man has the vision, will, and strength to change the nature of an entire society (kind of like Gothos in fact) is sufficient reason to view that person with awe in my opinion.

Rakes reunion with Mother Dark showed the Redeemer that there was no breach or gulf or argument too great in any relationship that it cannot be mended if you... are willing to sacrifice for it, or desire reconciliation strongly enough (cant think of a better way to phrase this, it may not make sense?) This is what allows the redeemer to embrace the Dying God and mean it when he blesses him.

Great explanations, thanks! So Gods are never really in any danger if they're in the mortal world because they're not really there 100%? Sounds overpowered.

[Inane Babble]

Dadding, on 04 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Great explanations, thanks! So Gods are never really in any danger if they're in the mortal world because they're not really there 100%? Sounds overpowered.

They are still vulnerable, for example they can be trapped (like mael in one of his alters), or severely damaged (like the errant having his eye gulped down, this also takes most of his power too), or banished/sent away (like undinaas does to menandore and the errant, or when shadowthrone pulls out cotillion forcefully in GOTM)


I don't know that gods commanding warrens can't be killed at all while in Wu without being made manifest, but we don't have a lot of other examples to draw upon, most other ascendants who die aren't specified to be the owners of or tied to Warrens.

[Andorion]

I think you will find there is no deal that Shadowthrone and/or Cotillion are not "in" on in someway or the other

[Dadding]

Andorion, on 06 April 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

I think you will find there is no deal that Shadowthrone and/or Cotillion are not "in" on in someway or the other

Hah! I don't doubt that, really looking forward to reading their end-game.

[Abyss]

Inane Babble, on 04 April 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Dadding, on 04 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Great explanations, thanks! So Gods are never really in any danger if they're in the mortal world because they're not really there 100%? Sounds overpowered.

They are still vulnerable, for example they can be trapped (like mael in one of his alters), or severely damaged (like the errant having his eye gulped down, this also takes most of his power too), or banished/sent away (like undinaas does to menandore and the errant, or when shadowthrone pulls out cotillion forcefully in GOTM)


I don't know that gods commanding warrens can't be killed at all while in Wu without being made manifest, but we don't have a lot of other examples to draw upon, most other ascendants who die aren't specified to be the owners of or tied to Warrens.

Also, keep in mind all gods are different in various ways (strength, aspect, origin, species, living/dead/undead/ascended/undetermined... ) so what kills some gods may barely tickle others. Also, most gods experience some vulnerability via their tools and worshipers... QB was able to get at Hood thru Talamanadas and Fener was severely depowered when the Gray Swords were wiped out in MoI; The Semk god was repeatedly cut down in DG by various people; IB and his human Guardsmen took out The Pack in MT despite an entire tribe of worshipers nearby.