[Egwene]

I have just finished reading FoD and have lots of questions about the timelines for the various races.

Maybe I missed a few bits - was there any appearance or mention of the K'Chain at all?

[Aptorian]

I don't think there was a single mention of the KCCM. Which is interesting considering the timeline. Maybe they are on the moon and wont be arriving before the Dragons have stopped by. Maybe the appear when what ever happens to the world that splits the various landmarks into independent warrens has taken place.

It doesn't fit with how we though the chronological order was constructed but FOD has been a bit of a storytelling paradigme shift.

This post has been edited by Apt Hoc: 03 April 2014 - 11:50 AM

[Inane Babble]

There is a mention somewhere in the series that K'Chain Che'Malle are "The firstborn of dragons" whether this was incorrect, mistaken or simply pointing to their similarities, there is nevertheless a distinct possibility that the KCCM might now show up at all in this series depending on when the living dragons enter the books

[Spoilsport Stonny]

By the time of FoD The Eres have all moved south, (according to Rancept, my favorite cryptic infodump character of all time), which is probably somehow related to Wu. In Osserc's pocket memory warren from HoC, we see the Eres being domesticated by the Deregoth, and L'Oric also sees Skykeeps and signs of KCCM. THat could have likely been a memory from before FoD of proto-Wu before the Tiste invasions, and the KCCM are native to that world, which falls in line with MT and RG info of the Scabandari/Silchas wars they fought against them. Siince FoD tells the tale from the Tiste POV, its not surprising the KCCM haven't been mentioned much, and its likely because the Tiste are somewhat unaware of them; they are a very inward-looking race. One of those things that washed up on the Vitr Shore could easily have been some kind of flavoured KCCM breed, though.

[Egwene]

Arathan' mother is an unknown factor. Although hints seem to point to T'riss, it could be someone else entirely but most likely another Azathanai. Could the various races originate in such unions? Could Arathan's daughter turn out to be the first K'Chain Che'Malle Matron? Is this the connection to the Shake?

The pregnancy is not progressing normally. Blood most unusual. The emphasis on daughter.


(Another theory, less wild, about the daughter... the huge corpse, did it invest the child with something... maybe Thel Akai heritage?)

Is there anything that would totally eliminate Feren's daughter from being a K'Chain?

[Abyss]

 Egwene, on 03 April 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

...Is there anything that would totally eliminate Feren's daughter from being a K'Chain?

Other than the sheer disconnect between massive lizard matrons and basic Tiste?

Put it differently, is there anything to suggest she is?


FoD does suggest there's a long history to the world even before we see it in this book, including prior contact with dragons, so it's entirely possible the KChain have already come and gone and will return.

That said, I don't recall anything in FoD to suggest any KChain presence at all at that point.

[Egwene]

The thought popped into my head because the description of her pregnancy feels so ominous. Full of something terrible about to happen. Plus the lack of K'Chain presence and someone commenting on them not having an Azathanai 'Patron'.

It is a pretty outlandish idea, I know, but there was just something in the words which made me think of Toc and his ordeal. The use of the word 'daughter'. Not sure if the word 'flavour' was in there somewhere as well.

I definitely think that the 'outcome' of this pregnancy is going to have some dire consequences. We have two different Azathanai as potential fathers. Arathan does not yet know himself we are told, nor does he know who or what his mother was. So we really have no idea as to what/who 'it' might resemble.

And when anything is possible...

[bobbo]

I'm pretty sure all KCCM are on Wu? They never live in KG realm. I think what's going to happen is the rest of the races (Jaghut, Eres, TTT, Dogrunners, Forkrullan ect.) will be gradually pushed out of KG into Wu by the forthcoming war and the various Tiste races will follow later and war with the KCCM as we see in MT prologue. The other various Elder Warrens will be made during this time also. I see this taking place over at least hundreds of years, if not thousands. Of course this is all speculation on my part...

[BridgeBurner]

 Egwene, on 03 April 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Arathan' mother is an unknown factor. Although hints seem to point to T'riss, it could be someone else entirely but most likely another Azathanai. Could the various races originate in such unions? Could Arathan's daughter turn out to be the first K'Chain Che'Malle Matron? Is this the connection to the Shake?

The only connection I know about between the KCC and the Shake is that one Matron spilled her eggs on the ocean floor having them washing up on the western Letherii shore (as told in tCG). Those were the eggs causing some Shake children to have reptilian features. The children coming from that were the ones embraced by the witches and the warlords IIRC.

[Aptorian]

 bobbo, on 04 April 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure all KCCM are on Wu? They never live in KG realm. I think what's going to happen is the rest of the races (Jaghut, Eres, TTT, Dogrunners, Forkrullan ect.) will be gradually pushed out of KG into Wu by the forthcoming war and the various Tiste races will follow later and war with the KCCM as we see in MT prologue. The other various Elder Warrens will be made during this time also. I see this taking place over at least hundreds of years, if not thousands. Of course this is all speculation on my part...

I think you have it the wrong way around.

Wu already exists. That is where everyone is living currently. The warrens and their magic have not been established yet. After all Burn is already there and dreaming.

What will more likely happen is that K'rul's project, that Erestas... changed?, will create a kind of sundering. One where all the lands that we hear about in FOD are turned into seperate warrens. Kurald Galain, Omtose Pherrak, Telan, etc. are pushed into new worlds.

As for the KCCM it is a mystery where they are, since our understanding of the history suggested they came before the other races. Maybe they were on the moon all along, maybe they arose and then left for the moon and came back. Maybe the warrens are created, all the founding races are delegated to their own worlds and in the mean time Dragons poop KCCM children all over Wu and 500,000 years later the other races come back to Wu.

[Sibylle]

 Apt Hoc, on 04 May 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

 bobbo, on 04 April 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure all KCCM are on Wu? They never live in KG realm. I think what's going to happen is the rest of the races (Jaghut, Eres, TTT, Dogrunners, Forkrullan ect.) will be gradually pushed out of KG into Wu by the forthcoming war and the various Tiste races will follow later and war with the KCCM as we see in MT prologue. The other various Elder Warrens will be made during this time also. I see this taking place over at least hundreds of years, if not thousands. Of course this is all speculation on my part...

I think you have it the wrong way around.

Wu already exists. That is where everyone is living currently. The warrens and their magic have not been established yet. After all Burn is already there and dreaming.

What will more likely happen is that K'rul's project, that Erestas... changed?, will create a kind of sundering. One where all the lands that we hear about in FOD are turned into seperate warrens. Kurald Galain, Omtose Pherrak, Telan, etc. are pushed into new worlds.

As for the KCCM it is a mystery where they are, since our understanding of the history suggested they came before the other races. Maybe they were on the moon all along, maybe they arose and then left for the moon and came back. Maybe the warrens are created, all the founding races are delegated to their own worlds and in the mean time Dragons poop KCCM children all over Wu and 500,000 years later the other races come back to Wu.

Or the KCCM are also there, but far away. The sentence: "The High King as build a ship" suggests the world/universe is much bigger than the small region we have seen in FOD. It would only take a few months on horseback to travel most of that region, suggesting there is a vast region still not being talked about.

For all we know the KCCM are on a different continent, and the remark "The High King as build a ship" means: trouble is on its way.

[prq]

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 03 April 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

By the time of FoD The Eres have all moved south, (according to Rancept, my favorite cryptic infodump character of all time), which is probably somehow related to Wu. In Osserc's pocket memory warren from HoC, we see the Eres being domesticated by the Deregoth, and L'Oric also sees Skykeeps and signs of KCCM. THat could have likely been a memory from before FoD of proto-Wu before the Tiste invasions, and the KCCM are native to that world, which falls in line with MT and RG info of the Scabandari/Silchas wars they fought against them. Siince FoD tells the tale from the Tiste POV, its not surprising the KCCM haven't been mentioned much, and its likely because the Tiste are somewhat unaware of them; they are a very inward-looking race. One of those things that washed up on the Vitr Shore could easily have been some kind of flavoured KCCM breed, though.

The description of the first creature that comes out of the Vitr that Finarra spots, resembles a Kell Hunter.

[worry]

So the Vitr is the first Gate to a Warren, and that Warren is Starvald Demelain? And the K'chain are SD natives? Perhaps the Azathanai opened the Vitr and reptilians (including the K'chain and the Eleint) came through in a first wave that is already long past? Or alternatively, the K'chain through a technology/sorcery combo created the Vitr from the SD side and became the first invaders of Wu, prompting the intervention of the Azath and the founding of the Azathanai long ago?

[DaddyDraconus]

Those where definitely K'Chain that showed up on the shore of the Vitr. Not sure if Previous MBotF books are considered spoilers so will tag the following untill further notified, RG Spoiler:

Spoiler

The Vitr is where K'Chain newborns come from that are not claimed by the Matron. This is stated during a conversation between the Adjunct, Yan Tovis and Deadsmell when Yan Tovis arrives on first maiden fort. I don't have a page # as I am listening to the audio book. When I heard this convo it immediatly snapped into my head about the beasts in forge of darkness. I don't know what he meant by not claimed by the Matron but it certainly is interesting and worth going over that passage again. As a side note earlier in RG Yan Tovis is remembering the Shakes legacy for stealing children, something else that shows up in FOD!

[D'rek]

 DaddyDraconus, on 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Those where definitely K'Chain that showed up on the shore of the Vitr. Not sure if Previous MBotF books are considered spoilers so will tag the following untill further notified, RG Spoiler:

Spoiler

The Vitr is where K'Chain newborns come from that are not claimed by the Matron. This is stated during a conversation between the Adjunct, Yan Tovis and Deadsmell when Yan Tovis arrives on first maiden fort. I don't have a page # as I am listening to the audio book. When I heard this convo it immediatly snapped into my head about the beasts in forge of darkness. I don't know what he meant by not claimed by the Matron but it certainly is interesting and worth going over that passage again. As a side note earlier in RG Yan Tovis is remembering the Shakes legacy for stealing children, something else that shows up in FOD!

THe quote in question from Deadsmell could just have easily been referring solely to the northwestern Letheri coastline, and not the Vitr or any other coastline.

[DaddyDraconus]

 D, on 19 September 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

 DaddyDraconus, on 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Those where definitely K'Chain that showed up on the shore of the Vitr. Not sure if Previous MBotF books are considered spoilers so will tag the following untill further notified, RG Spoiler:

Spoiler

The Vitr is where K'Chain newborns come from that are not claimed by the Matron. This is stated during a conversation between the Adjunct, Yan Tovis and Deadsmell when Yan Tovis arrives on first maiden fort. I don't have a page # as I am listening to the audio book. When I heard this convo it immediatly snapped into my head about the beasts in forge of darkness. I don't know what he meant by not claimed by the Matron but it certainly is interesting and worth going over that passage again. As a side note earlier in RG Yan Tovis is remembering the Shakes legacy for stealing children, something else that shows up in FOD!

THe quote in question from Deadsmell could just have easily been referring solely to the northwestern Letheri coastline, and not the Vitr or any other coastline.

Quite Possible, some clues a are deadsmell states that the shake where gaurding the shores of night. He' refers to getting this knowlege from the Andii on the ship ( Nimander's group)
Listened to the quote again:
Deadsmell "God's below what wave was that? The very first? And why the shore? Because thats where new born K'chain che malle came from, isnt it? The ones not claimed by a matron that is. "

- Since he stated earlier he got his knowlege from chatting with the Andii on the ship ride over to Letharas I don't think they were talking about where the shake live now but their ancient home. Now one thing I am making an assumption on and could very well be wrong is that I am assuming the Vitr is where the Battle for lightfall takes place in DoD. That could not be correct at all. In fact its kind of wierd that shake worship the shore in MBotF, but in FoD at least it looked like they worshipped a river spirit and that the Andii (Spinnock Durev and his perv cousin) where the one's who patrolled the Vitr. But then again they may not be one and the same.

[Gorefest]

I thought Lightfall was following the course of the river mentioned in FoD.

[D'rek]

 DaddyDraconus, on 19 September 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

 D, on 19 September 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

 DaddyDraconus, on 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Those where definitely K'Chain that showed up on the shore of the Vitr. Not sure if Previous MBotF books are considered spoilers so will tag the following untill further notified, RG Spoiler:

Spoiler

The Vitr is where K'Chain newborns come from that are not claimed by the Matron. This is stated during a conversation between the Adjunct, Yan Tovis and Deadsmell when Yan Tovis arrives on first maiden fort. I don't have a page # as I am listening to the audio book. When I heard this convo it immediatly snapped into my head about the beasts in forge of darkness. I don't know what he meant by not claimed by the Matron but it certainly is interesting and worth going over that passage again. As a side note earlier in RG Yan Tovis is remembering the Shakes legacy for stealing children, something else that shows up in FOD!

THe quote in question from Deadsmell could just have easily been referring solely to the northwestern Letheri coastline, and not the Vitr or any other coastline.

Quite Possible, some clues a are deadsmell states that the shake where gaurding the shores of night. He' refers to getting this knowlege from the Andii on the ship ( Nimander's group)
Listened to the quote again:
Deadsmell "God's below what wave was that? The very first? And why the shore? Because thats where new born K'chain che malle came from, isnt it? The ones not claimed by a matron that is. "

- Since he stated earlier he got his knowlege from chatting with the Andii on the ship ride over to Letharas I don't think they were talking about where the shake live now but their ancient home. Now one thing I am making an assumption on and could very well be wrong is that I am assuming the Vitr is where the Battle for lightfall takes place in DoD. That could not be correct at all. In fact its kind of wierd that shake worship the shore in MBotF, but in FoD at least it looked like they worshipped a river spirit and that the Andii (Spinnock Durev and his perv cousin) where the one's who patrolled the Vitr. But then again they may not be one and the same.

The Vitr is described pretty similarly in FoD and in SW/OST, while Lightfall has a very different description. I think it is more likely that after the sundering that starts at the end of FoD, the Tiste lands west of the great river become Andii-controlled and eventually Kurald Galain, while the lands east become Liosan-controlled and eventually Kurald Thyrllan. The lands/warrens are split along the river, but around Kharkanas/Saranas the river becomes a varyingly-permeable magical barrier that is Lightfall. The Shake, having been Tiste who worshipped the river god, remain at the shore on the Andii side and end up fighting the Liosan legions who come through. The Vitr, meanwhile, remains at the far north coast and eventually goes into its own warren, I suppose.

Then the Shake leave with Silchas (or maybe Rake or maybe on their own) and end up in the west part of the Letheri continent, and since they have this great Shore motif going on they settle on the ocean coast where a Che'malle Matron had loosed a bunch of eggs creating weird K'chain offshoots that come out of the water.

It probably works best if the Shake came with Silchas, as then there's a great reason for Deadsmell to know they were guarding the shore where mutant baby K'chain come from - Sandalath, who was one of the Andii who followed Silchas along Gallan's Road to the Lether area millenia ago, was on the Silanda with Deadsmell and could have told him all that (because indeed, Nimander, Phaed, and co. would probably not have known much/anything about the Shake post-Kharkanas).

That's my guess, anyways.

[DaddyDraconus]

Ahh. That makes sense, I didn't know the Esslemont books touched on the vitr I need to read those, the only problem is I can't find audio versions for his. Erickson's biblio being availble in audio has been a blessing whislt doing my reread of MBotF. Perhaps we will hear more about the K'chain when the Tiste start getting involved with dragon's sense the k'chain consider them to be close relations

This post has been edited by DaddyDraconus: 25 September 2014 - 02:40 AM

[Gorefest]

 DaddyDraconus, on 25 September 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

Ahh. That makes sense, I didn't know the Esslemont books touched on the vitr I need to read those, the only problem is I can't find audio versions for his. Erickson's biblio being availble in audio has been a blessing whislt doing my reread of MBotF. Perhaps we will hear more about the K'chain when the Tiste start getting involved with dragon's sense the k'chain consider them to be close relations

If you mean in the Kharkanas trilogy, I doubt it to be honest. I suspect the trilogy won't reach all the way to the Andi-Edur betrayal at the end of the battle with the K'Chain after the crossing, and if I recall correctly that crossing was the very first time that the Tiste made contact with the K'Chain.