[Terez]

Just chiming in to say that the progressive wing of American politics is extremely skeptical of anything to do with Russiagate right now. Since I am a progressive, lots of the people I follow on Twitter are in this camp. They have been skeptical since the beginning and they have remained stubbornly skeptical even as the evidence has continued to pile up. I read that article earlier when Nico posted it (this is the only thread on this forum I'm still subscribed to), and while Nico is Nico, it's hard for me to see the article itself as a fringe view. Glenn Greenwald and The Intercept, Yves Smith and Naked Capitalism, and this guy at The Nation...they think anyone who pays any attention at all to the Russia Problem is a conspiracy theorist, more interested in cheap television drama than real issues. (Personally, I think Trump's criminality extends far beyond Russiagate and I'm just hoping Mueller can use his Russia mandate to nab him on something or another before the 2020 election. But I should head over to the US Politics thread, which I assume still exists.)

[Aptorian]

What about the revelation that NRA and NRA TV has been funded by Russia? They've been visiting Russia and that Putina woman is now corroborating with the US government.

That doesn't raise any eyebrows?

Or the constant changing of facts in regards to Trump incs contacts with Russia?

I mean, the Trumps are stupid but not that stupid.

[Terez]

There's definitely a lot of real, hard evidence piling up that Russia has been heavily invested in an influence operation in the US for many years, and that Trump is a valuable (if imperfect) Russian asset. It's definitely disturbing that this is making democracy harder to promote in Russia, but that does not change the facts. Unfortunately there is also a lot of sad conspiracy-mongering and McCarthyism coming from the left-wingnuts, implicating everyone from Bernie Sanders to Glenn Greenwald himself, and that's feeding a lot of the stubbornness in the more sober-minded progressive wing when it comes to this issue.

As for NATO, Trump is not the first politician to scorn it because it has been something of a right-wing pet issue for decades. I've talked about this here before, but religious nuts got really deep into conspiracy theories about globalism about 20 years ago, popularized in part by a series of Christian fiction books in epic fantasy form (16 books) called Left Behind (this has been made into a movie twice iirc, the first time with Kirk Cameron, the second time with Nick Cage), though that particular school of thought was naturally preexisting in conservative politics; that's why it was a feature of the books. I can't tell you how many people I know who read them who had never read a book from cover to cover before, not even the Bible. Anyway, the books cast any kind of authority above Country in a really sinister light a.k.a. basically the Antichrist.

This same group of right-wingnuts also tends to idolize the NRA no matter what it does, but the NRA is really struggling to stay afloat financially in recent years because the gun violence issue is getting hotter and hotter every time we have a mass shooting, which as you know is quite often. So they still have the blind loyalty of the GOP base, but they're losing their big donors and relying increasingly on foreign funds, which is how they got caught up with Russian spies in the first place.

[Gorefest]

Nicodimas, on 27 January 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Been ages! Since I posted in here...

Solid ! The Russian people are allies and we should always pursue a peaceful interaction. I say as an American we should seed Europe to the Russians completely. These are countries that’s people desire to be ruled by a system of power.

Abolish NATO. Form the a trilateral power pact with US-Russia-China based off complete and absolute central governments. Progress is close towards letting the system take control.

https://www.thenatio...-about-america/

Seed Europe to the Russians? Why the fuck do you even think the US has any right to make such a call? Seriously, this is the most screwed up comment I have see on these boards in a long time. You are either a massive troll or you seriously need councelling. Ffs.

[Primateus]

Gorefest, on 27 January 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 27 January 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Been ages! Since I posted in here...

Solid ! The Russian people are allies and we should always pursue a peaceful interaction. I say as an American we should seed Europe to the Russians completely. These are countries that's people desire to be ruled by a system of power.

Abolish NATO. Form the a trilateral power pact with US-Russia-China based off complete and absolute central governments. Progress is close towards letting the system take control.

https://www.thenatio...-about-america/

Seed Europe to the Russians? Why the fuck do you even think the US has any right to make such a call? Seriously, this is the most screwed up comment I have see on these boards in a long time. You are either a massive troll or you seriously need councelling. Ffs.

He basically means that the US should withdraw from NATO and sever alliance ties with Europe in general. As in, make it clear to the world that the US might care if someone (the Russians) decide to invade Europe, but that they won't do anything about it.

[Gorefest]

Well, that's equally stupid. A total lack of understanding of world politics.

[Morgoth]

I don't think Nico understands much about the world anymore, to be honest. Or maybe he never did. Russia is never going to be a world power again. At least not in our lifetime. It's a big country with natural resources and a fairly sizable population, but their GDP is roughly the size of Spain. An actual war between Russia and NATO sans the US (or just Russia and Germany really) would only ever have one outcome. Or two if you count nukes.

[Terez]

Virgin of High House Bachelor, on 27 January 2019 - 09:41 PM, said:

Terez if this is the only thread you come to on ME now then I ll draw your attention to GoT S8 thread. I made it to hand you the reigns like you have done the past few yrs. Start another S8 thread and I ll get a mod to merge all into your new one.

Nice of you but I'm good. I think if one spends as much time away from the forum as I have, one abdicates any claims to privileges such as these. I hope to chime in a bit when the season kicks off but I haven't been keeping up with casting or leaks or anything and I'm not really all that curious either, mostly because I'm distracted by other things.

Morgoth, on 28 January 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

I don't think Nico understands much about the world anymore, to be honest. Or maybe he never did. Russia is never going to be a world power again. At least not in our lifetime. It's a big country with natural resources and a fairly sizable population, but their GDP is roughly the size of Spain. An actual war between Russia and NATO sans the US (or just Russia and Germany really) would only ever have one outcome. Or two if you count nukes.

I think this is the logic that led Obama to laugh at Romney (in the presidential debate quoted in my sig, incidentally, at a different moment) when he said he said Russia was our biggest geopolitical foe. Romney has been saying "I was right" for a couple of years now. Sadly though, anyone who hoped Senator Romney was going to be tough on Russia in Washington is probably feeling pretty disappointed right about now.

Russia's economy is weak and isn't likely to get much better than it is right now as long as there are insane levels of corruption, but there are things they can do to weaken other nations that have traditionally worked together to hold them at bay, if we let them. Anti-government sentiment certainly works in their favor, at least in the US. Anti-globalist sentiment can be manipulated to weaken organizations like NATO, and if there weren't several NATO countries on the brink of chaos at this time I might share your faith that Russia can do no harm, but alas.

[Tsundoku]

Funny? Scary? Both?

https://www.news.com...c3c761b1be3fd27

Count confirms comic's lead in Ukraine
Comedian Volodymyr Zelenskiy is ahead in the first round of Ukraine's presidential election and looks set to face incumbent Petro Poroshenko in the run-off.

Matthias Williams and Pavel Polityuk and Polina Ivanova and Natalia Zinets
Deutsche Presse AgenturAPRIL 1, 20195:58PM
A comedian with no political experience has raced ahead in the first round of Ukraine's presidential election, offering a fresh face to voters fed up with entrenched corruption in a country on the frontline of the West's stand-off with Russia.

With over half of all ballots counted by Monday morning, 41-year-old Volodymyr Zelenskiy, who plays a fictional president in a popular TV series, held a comfortable lead over incumbent President Petro Poroshenko.

The vote has been deemed largely free and fair by the national electoral commission.

A crowded field of 39 candidates has now shrunk to just two, with Zelenskiy and Poroshenko set to go head-to-head in a second round run-off on April 21.

Propelled by his anti-establishment appeal, newcomer Zelenskiy must convince voters he is fit to lead a country that has been at war ever since protests in 2014 ejected a pro-Kremlin government and Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula.

He has been criticised for being an unknown quantity and light on policy detail, and his victory speech on Sunday provided little further insight into what he would do if handed the top job in the second round vote.
State of the Nation 2019: Low wages, high costs and a shaky property market. The future for Australia is uncertain. Tell us what's important to you >

Both Zelenskiy and Poroshenko face firmly west, and neither wants to move Ukraine back into Russia's orbit. But investors are also keen to see if the next president would push reforms required to keep the country in an International Monetary Fund bailout program that has supported Ukraine through war, sharp recession and a currency plunge.

With 50.4 per cent of ballots counted by 9am on Monday, Zelenskiy held 30.2 per cent of the vote, the Central Election Commission said.

The result is a powerful challenge to the veteran politician Poroshenko, at 16.6 per cent, and former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who trailed in third place with 13.1 per cent.

"I would like to say 'thank you' to all the Ukrainians who did not vote just for fun," Zelenskiy told cheering supporters on Sunday. "It is only the beginning, we will not relax."

In keeping with the laid-back style of his campaign, Zelenskiy's election night venue provided a bar with free alcohol, table football and table tennis games.

Poroshenko called the result a "severe lesson", especially from younger voters, and urged their support in a second round.

"You see changes in the country, but want them to be quicker, deeper and of higher quality. I have understood the motives behind your protest," he said.

Poroshenko sought to portray Zelenskiy as unfit to represent Ukraine abroad, especially when taking on Russian President Vladimir Putin in international talks.

Putin "dreams of a soft, pliant, tender, giggling, inexperienced, weak, ideologically amorphous and politically undecided president of Ukraine. Are we really going to give him that opportunity?" Poroshenko said.

Tymoshenko said at a news conference she might yet challenge the result, adding that her team's exit polling put her in second place.

Poroshenko has fought to integrate the country with the European Union and NATO, while strengthening the military that is fighting Kremlin-backed separatists in Ukraine's east.

[Cause]

I think this is part of a larger and growing issue that maybe technology/modern culture is causing. In the past you had to put some effort into being politically engaged. If you wanted to hear Abe Lincoln campaign you had to travel for an hour or maybe longer to hear him speak in person. You had to put in effort. You had to engage with local politics and expand outwards. Why else would you put in the effort of traveling so far if you didn't care.

There is also something called rational ignorance. Your vote is singly insignificant (although each counts) and it also makes only so much sense to devote so much time to learning the intricacy of every policy and its impact and how they interconnect.

So now with TV broadcasts and the internet you can hear every candidate, you can feel like your politically enagaged and understand whats going on even though you don't. You can focus on one issue you really care about and kinda ignore the rest.

So when billionaire businessmen Trump, famed actor arnold Schwarzenegger, or a comic in the Ukraine run for office they are taken seriously and can win. Even though they shouldn't even be considered.

So you vote for trump because he is anti establishment, and you feel the system is letting you down but you don't consider that he is also anti the Medicaid funding you depend on. Its not necessarily that you are lazy and so you vote against your own self interest its that politics and the world has grown to large for someone to make a vote every 4-5 years and determine economic, financial, security, welfare policy and know what the fuck they are doing. Knowing and understanding even one of these issues is a full time job, never mind doing it as a hobby on the side of your real job so your one vote out of millions can make the right choice in 4 years time.

I think we are seeing a massive donwards spiral into demagoguery, populism, and hate throughout the world in politics.

[Mentalist]

It's a circus. The runoff is between a current pres and a man who plays one on TV.

Zelensky will collect a huge chunk of pro-Russian votes, and those were about 20% of the voters in the first round, split between 2 key candidates (both ex-Party of Regions bosses)

Zelensky had a convincing lead in all big population centres (over a million), with exception of L'viv, the biggest city in Western UA, where he was 5th. Nevertheless, Zelensky polled well in Kyyin, Dnipro, Kharkiv and Odessa (Donetsk region is not a major player anymore, since most populous cities are part of Terro-Russian puppet states).

In the runoff, Poroshenko will have a lot more influence of the electoral committees though. And both Zelensky and Poroshenko are backed by the same local elites in the regions- neither candidate really has a "party" to speak of.

What's gonna be really interesting will be the intermediary period between the runoff and the parliamentary elections in October.

Edit: addressing Poroshenko's message to young people... yeah, no. Judging by how many new immigrants I meet Through my occasional run-ins with the Uki immigrants community, young people don't really believe in the country's future. Anyone who can is looking for a way to get out.

I mean, hopefully the reactionary vote's strong and Poroshenko stays (I don't believe in "voting for change for the sake of change" ), but yeah, not looking great. Poroshenko's problem is that he's done if he loses, b/c the people who supported his rise in 2014 will readily jump ship to Zelensky in exchange for guarantees of business as usual regarding their institutionalized feudalism and business as usual.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 08 April 2019 - 06:19 PM

[Aptorian]

I heard that they may have a face off at some kind of stadium later this month. How will that pan out?

From what I understand Zelensky is sort of like Trump. He says the right things but he doesn't actually understand the realities of government and politics.

[Mentalist]

Aptorian, on 08 April 2019 - 06:52 PM, said:

I heard that they may have a face off at some kind of stadium later this month. How will that pan out?

From what I understand Zelensky is sort of like Trump. He says the right things but he doesn't actually understand the realities of government and politics.

Zelensky says very little. So people are projecting onto him all the things that they want to happen.

If they were to have an actual debate, Zelensky would crash and burn, since he has no clue about anything politics related.
This "stadium" debate is Zelensky trying to leverage his capacity to work the crowd. Sigh.

[Mentalist]

ok, so watched the "stadium debate". Depressing.

Poroshenko is an SOB; he's trying to equate Zelensky with the "revanche of the pro-Russian oligarchs", which is a dumb-ass move that's just gonna piss people off, because "Russian fakes" are an ur-meme now.

BUT: he has a goddamn point in the fact that Zelensky knows nothing about politics, no one knows wtf he's gonna do, and the country is STILL AT WAR, so having a totally green and inexperienced Commander-in-Chief is... well, not good.

Zelensky's argument, otoh is "Poroshenko and his entourage are corrupt, I'm the voice of the people asking for change". Which is lovely, but a) I don't believe ANYONE entering Uki politics is an altruist, and we don't know who's backing him, and b( while he's great at pointing out the failures of Poroshneko's government (and there are SO. MANY.), I have not heard anything about how he's intending to actually,, y'know fix stuff.

So yeah. I'm VERY pessimistic about this. given a choice between a half-competent crook, and an (allegedly) well-intentioned incompetent. I mean, it's a shitty choice to begin with, but y'know what? I believe that politics is a mechanism where it's a lot easier to fuck shit up than it is to improve something. And a crook has some vested interest to keep things going. While an incompetent (even if well-intentioned) has a much higher chance to fuck shit up beyond belief.

So yeah, shitty choice. I'm gonna remain pessimistic until proven otherwise.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 21 April 2019 - 09:23 PM

[Aptorian]

Congratulations. Ukraine's president is now a clown. This us going to be interesting to say the least.

All the news podcasts I normally follow are on an Easter break so I'm curious what they'll say come the next weekend.

[Mentalist]

Aptorian, on 21 April 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

Congratulations. Ukraine's president is now a clown. This us going to be interesting to say the least.

All the news podcasts I normally follow are on an Easter break so I'm curious what they'll say come the next weekend.

I remain willing to be pleasantly surprised if the clown turns out not to be a crook AND won't be merely a talking head for Big Business crooks.

The telltale sign will be just how many "old faces" will we find in his ranks for the parliamentary election in the fall.

[Tsundoku]

Aptorian, on 21 April 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

Congratulations. Ukraine's president is now a clown.

Well at least now Ukraine can say they have something in common with the USA (among others).

Mentalist, on 21 April 2019 - 09:22 PM, said:

I remain willing to be pleasantly surprised if the clown turns out not to be a crook AND won't be merely a talking head for Big Business crooks.

The telltale sign will be just how many "old faces" will we find in his ranks for the parliamentary election in the fall.

Is there anywhere other than the current lot that he can draw experienced people from?

[Mentalist]

Tsundoku, on 21 April 2019 - 11:12 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 21 April 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

Congratulations. Ukraine's president is now a clown.

Well at least now Ukraine can say they have something in common with the USA (among others).

Mentalist, on 21 April 2019 - 09:22 PM, said:

I remain willing to be pleasantly surprised if the clown turns out not to be a crook AND won't be merely a talking head for Big Business crooks.

The telltale sign will be just how many "old faces" will we find in his ranks for the parliamentary election in the fall.

Is there anywhere other than the current lot that he can draw experienced people from?

He an poach reformist parties or bring in people from outside who are actual experts in stuff like economics, justice system, etc.

[Malankazooie]

Lol! Our wacky 'Dear Leader' and the shenanigans that travel with him. No, I'm not talking about Trump ye fools. I'm talking about Kim Jung Un.

[Mentalist]

Zelensky successfully forced an earl parliamentary election, it'll happen on Sun (instead of the regularly scheduled October)

I am pessimistic, since half the MPs are still coming to us from first-past-the-post electoral districts, and those have been notoriously succeptible to voter bribery to vote in businessmen who seek only personal immunity and will then sell their votes to the highest bidder. But we will see.