[Mentalist]

Sombra, on 27 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Yep, even our dumbarse media are calling it a proper invasion now. Looks like they're heading for Crimea along the coast, or maybe going to push north as well toward Donetsk.

Has war been declared?

An initial response from us should be Russia immediately kicked out of EVERY international organisation they are in, especially the UN security council.

After that ... who knows? Ye gods, what a fucking mess.

No, according to Russia it's just "DNR militias" that are now also making amphibious landings to the west of Mariupol.

I'm getting paid tomorrow, and after i'm done paying bills, whatever's left over from my paycheck is going straight to volunteers supporting the Uki army.

EDIT: Euronews still referrign to them as "pro-Russian separatists" last I heard... ugh

It's like EU doesn't realize that if UA does get embropiled in a full-scale war, their precious gas pipelines won't last long. And even if they think they can make Ukraine roll over and play dead the way the West bullied Saakashvili's Georgia to "stop provoking Russia", they need to think again, because if Poroshenko even hints at rolling over, people in Kyyv will literally strom his residence and hang him on a nearest streetlamp. People are angry, and very unstable.

EDIT AGAIN: to clarify:

Prior to today, there was a big taboo on the topic of "declaring state of War", because:

a) you can't run elections during a war, and the Revolution's demand was "re-loading the govt", so parliamentary elcetion is a big must have

b ) You can't get IMF funding during a war.

Now it's no longer relevant. the country is clamoring for a declaration "we're at war", opening the arsenals, and total mobilization.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 28 August 2014 - 12:07 AM

[Tsundoku]

Maybe Vlad needs a cash injection because of this?

http://www.news.com....0-1227038992801

Back on topic: why do I have the uncomfortable feeling that it's around 1938 all over again?

[Nicodimas]

Im happy this thread is still going..




CLEARLY. The United States policy has or is reaching the final sum. Its caught up to the United States and our former allies..a whole new ball game is brewing. People don't like to be meddled with.

Russia priced Oil in Yuan. Germany + multiple..multiple other countries don't trust.. US.. now. No Surprise. Russian or US for Europeans.. We all know they will choose America.

America Is trying to bomb Syria. Wait they are trying bomb Syria + ISIS. How many fronts can you engage...before its a blunder...

My lovely country is gaining it's position 208/256 conflicts, or roughly 81% of all WAR since world war two is attributed to my country ( 30 million dead) . History will judge us...Our economic policies....our greed. The Empire. The power.

American lost america when they bought out the poor on social programs and the rich on decadence..Huxley called it for US!!! Orwell was right about so many of the others places. We suffer huxley's argument.

In the next couple years we could very well watch a Russian/Chinese Superpower build. I think Germany goes independent very very soon. US has decades of advantage though on military tech and ground experience. Thats important in old school style.

All paths lead to war.


I AM AN AMERICAN, NOT A U.S. SUBJECT!
The next decade will dictate the difference.

[Gothos]

I think you're making the same mistake that many people did in regards of the "cold war" - Russia and China are not best buddies.

[Nicodimas]

Quote

Russia and China are not best buddies.

You are correct, take away the war comment..emotional won't happen unless a true economic collapse and regime change happens in US/CHINA situation...15 years away. 2030 situation.


Ideology though...who share more in common. US or Russia for China??


I could grasp at theories.. guys. You know the theories.. Ultimately.. think common sense..Us foreign policy is Nuts these last couple years...right? Bizzaro world.
12 months ago we wanted to bomb Asad...now we want to bomb ISIS and ASAD. off our rocker.

This isn't about the cold war..the direct decisions foreign policy has taken...economic policy..

US let crooks off...the world saw it...We *were* supposed to better.. its happened more than once...

THE US resembles a SOCIALISTIC-FASCIST POLICE STATE with the most advanced military on earth!! A trained..Super scary military..multiple deployments under their belts..

We could all argue where they fit politically..They appease to the poor, control the poor with ----cartels------...TAX and business law/economic policies have totally destroyed...the middle class.
<wait if you bring the illegal cartels into the gov system thats how communism works, Captialism says you let the remain, but enforce the rule of law??? >

This everything everything the founders didn't want...People have to see this... I mean this common sense now right?


The people overseas see what is happening..right...i think.. maybe they don't want to believe..

[Gothos]

Nicodimas, on 28 August 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Ideology though...who share more in common. US or Russia for China??

Looking at the past ~20 years, China is moving towards the US way of life and politics at a blazing fast speed. Russia still leans towards miliaristic, localized imperialism as opposed to an economic one, which puts a heavy divide between them and China.

Quote

THE US resembles a SOCIALISTIC-FASCIST POLICE STATE with the most advanced military on earth!! A trained..Super scary military..multiple deployments under their belts..

Are you drunk? Socialist? Your far left would still be considered far-right in any other country in the world. You're nowhere near socialist. As for police state - well...... you may have something going there with how internal affairs are conducted in the US lately.

Quote

We could all argue where they fit politically..They appease to the poor, control the poor with ----cartels------...TAX and business law/economic policies have totally destroyed...the middle class.

Your 1% ruined the middle class. Releasing too many restriction on financial instruments and banks led to the rise of corporations now deemed "too big to fail", which is a terrible thing to say. Business income has steadily grown since Reagan's time, yet wages were more or less frozen. Even since the 2008/2009 collapse, business income is skyrocketing while people are still kept in the mud. That's something the US needs to address, among other things (like abysmal education, healthcare costs and legally operating cartels like Comcast).

[Obdigore]

Mentalist, on 27 August 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 27 August 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Cause, on 07 August 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Seems Russia is countering by embargoing all American eu and Norwegian food products. I really am curious I that's not more skin to shooting themselves in the foot.

In any event strikes me as very reactionary and petty.

I need to find out more about Russia and Putin because it's fast becoming 1970 again

Regarding the food products: Polish newspapers report that the boycot against them is failing spectacularly. They sell their agricultural produce now to Belarus for a slightly higher price, Belarus repacks it to erase the Polish logo, and sells it for more to Russian stores. Basically, the boycot introduced a middleman who takes his cut and everyone grows richer as a result, while it does backfire for Russia.

This is true for the US as well. Food imports into China have increased and it seems that the Chinese are selling the food to Russians at higher prices than what Russia was getting from the US Companies.

The only real card Putin can play is stopping Oil/Natural Gas to the EU, but that would decimate his economy faster than the EU would run out (although the EU Would pay higher prices from other sources).

It sucks for those in Ukraine, but a slow economic sanction should eventually lead to less death and destruction then a military intervention in Ukraine.

nevermind how many soldiers and innocents die in the meanwhile, right?

it's open warfare in there now, btw. Proper invasion. several brigades of Russian regulars.

And NATO won't even give UA weapons...

Well yes. Soldiers and Innocents die in war all the time. Keeping the conflict small is in everyones interest, even Ukraine.

Honestly I agree with NATO's decision. UA had plenty of time to get out from the Russosphere while Russia was a toothless bear. They didn't. Now they realize their mistake and start talking to the EU and Russia freaks out and invades. UA isn't part of the EU, nor is it part of NATO, due to the UA's government choices.

From what I understand Ukraine has stated numerous times they do not wish to be any part of a military bloc/coalition.

This is what you get when you live next to an expansionist culture and don't take any efforts to stop them.

Why should the US, or NATO, come to Ukraines' aid now? It certainly isn't going to reduce the loss of life.

[Obdigore]

Sombra, on 27 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Yep, even our dumbarse media are calling it a proper invasion now. Looks like they're heading for Crimea along the coast, or maybe going to push north as well toward Donetsk.

Has war been declared?

An initial response from us should be Russia immediately kicked out of EVERY international organisation they are in, especially the UN security council.

After that ... who knows? Ye gods, what a fucking mess.

There is no way, in the UN, to remove someone from the security council. And if anyone brought it up China would just veto it. They want Russia to overreach and get bogged down. China wants those tasty tasty Siberian resources that Russia isn't really exploiting (yet).

[Cause]

I read an article about the ten paratroopers that were captured. Whole thing is odd.

If you send elite forces on covert missions I am pretty sure they would not just admit to it in five minutes. If you lie to special forces and send them illegally across the border just to drive around they won't accomplish must. What was the point of it?

Unless Russia is trying to sabotage itself

This post has been edited by Cause: 28 August 2014 - 10:21 AM

[Obdigore]

Cause, on 28 August 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I read an article about the ten paratroopers that were captured. Whole thing is odd.

If you send elite forces on covert missions I am pretty sure they would not just admit to it in five minutes. If you lie to special forces and send them illegally across the border just to drive around they won't accomplish must. What was the point of it?

This whole incident is on a new level because both sides have to play much more politics/social media games then people have in the past, as the world gets 'smaller'.

[Tapper]

Mentalist, on 28 August 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Sombra, on 27 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Yep, even our dumbarse media are calling it a proper invasion now. Looks like they're heading for Crimea along the coast, or maybe going to push north as well toward Donetsk.

Has war been declared?

An initial response from us should be Russia immediately kicked out of EVERY international organisation they are in, especially the UN security council.

After that ... who knows? Ye gods, what a fucking mess.

No, according to Russia it's just "DNR militias" that are now also making amphibious landings to the west of Mariupol.

I'm getting paid tomorrow, and after i'm done paying bills, whatever's left over from my paycheck is going straight to volunteers supporting the Uki army.

EDIT: Euronews still referrign to them as "pro-Russian separatists" last I heard... ugh

Nah. Our newspapers have moved on from that and are stating for the last few weeks that Russia is obviously meddling, but that the extent is unknown. They report also that US intelligence states this.

Quote

It's like EU doesn't realize that if UA does get embropiled in a full-scale war, their precious gas pipelines won't last long.

They do. The question is what else they can do apart from sanctions, and I'd say these are going to be extended.

Quote

And even if they think they can make Ukraine roll over and play dead the way the West bullied Saakashvili's Georgia to "stop provoking Russia", they need to think again, because if Poroshenko even hints at rolling over, people in Kyyv will literally strom his residence and hang him on a nearest streetlamp. People are angry, and very unstable.

I am not sure they know that, here on the Atlantic Coast. Former Soviet Republics probably do.

Quote

EDIT AGAIN: to clarify:

Prior to today, there was a big taboo on the topic of "declaring state of War", because:

a) you can't run elections during a war, and the Revolution's demand was "re-loading the govt", so parliamentary elcetion is a big must have

b ) You can't get IMF funding during a war.

Now it's no longer relevant. the country is clamoring for a declaration "we're at war", opening the arsenals, and total mobilization.

I don't think any Western/Eastern nation that fought a war since WW2 officially declared it to the other state, because then UN has to assess legality (hence the IMF norm). I think if Ukraine declared itself in a state of war, they might have a point there, but for that to happen, Russian active involvement has to be shown - the rebel leader declaring today that up to 4000 russian 'volunteers' are supporting the rebel forces might not even be enough for that.

However, apparently active Russian soldiers officially belonging to units stationed in Dagestan are coming home in bodybags
apparently.

Frankly, I can understand the sanction policy. It's long term policy, but it also makes sure Putin can't call on the moral high ground towards his own people. He's instead standing above a chasm where he can't aid the rebels openly without showing himself as an agressor, while Russia's position now starting to be being increasingly questioned by Russian people themselves and he has no scapegoat to give them that would make intervention 'legit'.

If the West would supply the Ukraine with weaponry, Moscow would claim we're opposed to the freedom of those poor, poor Russian speakers, that we would aid in their suppression and hence, he would invade to protect the 'brothers of the Russian people'.

The US/EU would then have to respond in kind or give up Ukraine, and they'll under no circumstances go into a war over the Ukraine. Putin would win, and he'd demand something entirely 'reasonable' *COUGH* like the border regions becoming part of Russia and a land bridge towards the Crimea by presenting everyone with a faît accomplis. Denying him that opportunity keeps a chance towards a united Ukraine, however small that chance might be.

Currently, US & EU are giving Putin no ground for intervention whatsoever and make life harder for Russia, hoping Putin will have to back down to maintain his political standing at home - so far, it worked... or at the least, it has gotten to the point where Russia didn't officially intervene and any signs that they do so are illegal and give the opportunity for more sanctions, diplomatic pressure, isolation and eventually (humanitarian/financial) aid for the Ukraine, probably coupled with US advisors and a defense coöperation pact.

In the meantime, Sweden and Finland are apparently edging away from neutrality and towards NATO, including defense clauses. That's decidedly Cold War-like.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 28 August 2014 - 11:37 AM

[Mentalist]

Cause, on 28 August 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I read an article about the ten paratroopers that were captured. Whole thing is odd.

If you send elite forces on covert missions I am pretty sure they would not just admit to it in five minutes. If you lie to special forces and send them illegally across the border just to drive around they won't accomplish must. What was the point of it?

Unless Russia is trying to sabotage itself

the simple answer is: Russia don't give a fuck.

They are pushing to see how far they can get. Pushing methodically, without a single look back at the rest of the world--which is perfectly happy to sit back and cluck about how "deeply concerned" they are.

Cause, you have to understand, the 2 captured BDM-2s were only captured, because they happened to get separated from teh main column. The same day in the smae general region, Ukrainians destroyed 8 more BDM-2s and a few tanks--including modified T-72s, which are not even used by UA military, so there's no way in hell of suggesting that "DNR terrorists" have gotten these off the Uki military, somehow.

@ Nico: as usual, you are incredibly chaotic. And this isn't a thread about US's Middle Eastern policy. Re: China-Russia: Russia is swiftly making its way towards becoming China's client state, without its population realizing this. There's a fundamental difference between China and Russia, in that China is slowly but surely attempting to achieve an economic hegemony, which is improving the lives of many (though not all, because there's so freaking many of them) Chinese. Whereas Russia is run by an incredibly corrupt cleptocratic elite, which relies on a strong government machine to supress any dissent that will threaten the status quo, and a propaganda machine to focus people's anger at the miserable state of their lives outside of Russia. The irony of the situation is, Russia's politicians, who speak the harshets against the West, usually have their kids and families living in the West, in a life of luxury.

As for your internal criticisms of the US: one thing you have to realize, is that US (and the West in general) continues to advertise a lifestyle--liberal democratic consumerism. The strings attached (such as corporatization, being locked into world markets (including financial markets, with the threats of falling prey to malicious speculators--see "Asian Flu" of early 2000s), and increasing homogeneity of moral values). Despite these strings, which have serios drawbacks, the model offers an everyday citizen a lot of positives-guaranteed bare minimum for survival, luxury goods and a stimulus to earn money, and, most importantly--increased predictability in dealing with state actors, due to reduced corruption on the mundane level.

Suffice it to say, this model isn't entirely sustainalble, and in many ways it is a neo-colonial model--but it nonetheless has its attractions. Most anti-Western models cannot boast this. The reason USSR lost the Cold War for its younger citizens' minds was, in large part, because it couldn't deny the appeal of Pepsi and jeans. Russia, unlike the USSR before it, has even less to offer the world as an alternative world view paradigm--at the very least the USSR had the dream of a communist utopia. Russia does not even have that. There's a lot that can be said about the EU, given its own prolonged stagnation, but that's a topic that takes us too far off from this thread.

in a quick update: Russians are massing in a border city of Novoazovsk, presumably for a strike on Mariupol. The city is being fortified, and a lot of youths are clamoring at mobilization committees, because they do not want to have the city go back uder DNR rule.

UA's Sec Council is scheduled to meet, but, apparently, they will NOT be implemenitng State of War--because elections. Motherf&*$#@s.

[Tapper]

Well Ment, the top NATO brass is talking with no hesitancy regarding Russian intentions and involvement:

http://www.theguardi...-russian-threat

I'd consider that quite a strong statement regarding Russia, and a very clear intent towards future relations with the Ukraine.

[Nicodimas]

@ Gothos

Quote

Are you drunk? Socialist?

Well YES!! .......yea.... I was! it really makes sense in my head.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 28 August 2014 - 04:49 PM

[Mentalist]

Tapper, on 28 August 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Well Ment, the top NATO brass is talking with no hesitancy regarding Russian intentions and involvement:

http://www.theguardi...-russian-threat

I'd consider that quite a strong statement regarding Russia, and a very clear intent towards future relations with the Ukraine.

Incidentally, this week Russia has violated Finland's air space three times....

[Gust Hubb]

What is wrong with the USA/EU?! Russia is totally invading. Why all this political pussyfooting around!

Makes me furious.

[Mentalist]

Gust Hubb, on 28 August 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

What is wrong with the USA/EU?! Russia is totally invading. Why all this political pussyfooting around!

Makes me furious.

nukes.

Moral of the story is: you've got nukes, the world's your oyster. Everyone needs nukes.

[Gust Hubb]

Mentalist, on 28 August 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 28 August 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

What is wrong with the USA/EU?! Russia is totally invading. Why all this political pussyfooting around!

Makes me furious.

nukes.

Moral of the story is: you've got nukes, the world's your oyster. Everyone needs nukes.

But a lot of Russia's nukes are inoperable as the government has no money for their upkeep. Plus, Russia has the world against them, especially if they threaten nukes (look how it has worked for N Korea and Iran).

[Mentalist]

Gust Hubb, on 28 August 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 28 August 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 28 August 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

What is wrong with the USA/EU?! Russia is totally invading. Why all this political pussyfooting around!

Makes me furious.

nukes.

Moral of the story is: you've got nukes, the world's your oyster. Everyone needs nukes.

But a lot of Russia's nukes are inoperable as the government has no money for their upkeep. Plus, Russia has the world against them, especially if they threaten nukes (look how it has worked for N Korea and Iran).

It only takes one functional nuke to set off an apocalypse. And unlike North Korea, Russia has many resources to sell. Business trumps principles.

[Nicodimas]

Quote

But a lot of Russia's nukes are inoperable as the government has no money for their upkeep

^Can you prove this. I was always certain the reason US/ Russia went away from the Megaton City busters to the 100 kilotons yields was they were cheaper to operate and lasted way longer.

Btw, you all think this is going to go Nuclear for real?

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 28 August 2014 - 06:46 PM