[Sigurth]

My main confusion is of the basic mechanics of Ascendants and gods in this series. I've only read two and a half books so far, and would prefer no big spoilers, though it shouldn't be necessary to say "read and find out" either when I'm mostly asking general questions.

1. First basic question, how does one ascend? It appears to simply be a manner of being in the right place at the right time. For example, waltzing into an Azath House (doesn't always work, apparently) or getting a beautiful tan while exposed to a fiery warren. It often appears accidental, though sometimes (such as the Path of Hands) very specific. And obviously some of the more famous ascendants of the series didn't just trip and fall into Ascendancy.

2. What exactly does Ascendancy do? Does an Ascendant simply just not age? Do they gain access to more powerful magic, get stronger, smarter? Can they still be killed by a random arrow to the face? Same questions for godhood. And do gods immediately get access to some private warren to hide in and spy on the mortals?

3. Why do the gods never get directly involved? It's always some form of manipulation. I'd think gods would be more proactive. Is there some kind of limit to how much they can interact with mortals or the mortal plane? In Deadhouse Gates why would Shadowthrone not simply send a couple Hounds to fulfill his plan or be like "Yo, I'm a god now, I'll take that throne back."

I appreciate any answers, even if they are purely speculative. Thank you

[worry]

You ascend by gaining enough experience to max level up.

[Aptorian]

The quick and dirty answer to all your questions is that ascendancy is hard to define and we don't understand much about the process.

Basically, ascendancy is about potential. Ascendants have more potential than a mortal and the more they push their limits the greater their potential seems to get. There is a discussion that has an offhand musing about ascendancy in book 6 I think, that suggests that ascending is about pressure. Population density will prodúce ascendants, simply through sheer numbers and statistics I assume. Other ways ascendants emerge is through manipulation by other gods or ascendants, by being exposed to power, the mere exposure to a warrens power could put you on the path of ascendancy. Your acts, your skill and you will can push you to ascend.

Consider Coltain as an example, he doesn't appear to be magically or racially empowered, yet he is described as being on the cusp of ascending. This is because of the sheer magnitude of his willpower perhaps but it may also be caused by the position he holds, he is a leader who holds the focus of thousands of soldiers and civilians. That responsibility, and the image of him that the thousands of people have of him in their minds and hearts, most likely is pushing him to become more than just a general and a leader.

There are no specific traits of an ascendant that defines their power, but generally all the ascendants we have seen share certain qualities, namely longevity, immunity, greater strength and endurance. There may also be a suggestion that the fact that ascendants are connected to the Deck of Dragons means the can sense "ascendant stuff" going on around the world or across warrens but this is never actually stated. Generally speaking Ascendants can just do more stuff than a mortal. The more they push themselves, the more they can do. If they are determined enough they can do the impossible.

Gods and ascendants are sort of like Glass cannons. They are very powerful but they are fragile as well. An ascendant could probably die from getting an arrow through an eye but often times, if you don't pin them down in a meat suit or if you don't have the right tools, they will be hard to take out.

Some times what ever defines an ascendant be it his or her race, his profession or skill or just where he was when he drew the short straw, will mean that the ascendant will gain an aspect. Anomander Rakes aspect is darkness and chaos because that is his racial and blood heritage. Dassembrae's aspect is tragedy because that is what his worshippers connected him with and it is what his life came to symbolise. Its not something that is written in stone and you will often find that the gods and ascendants use powers that borrow from other aspects. Like a shadow god healing somebody, when Denul obviously belongs to High House Life.

[D'rek]

 Sigurth, on 12 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

My main confusion is of the basic mechanics of Ascendants and gods in this series. I've only read two and a half books so far, and would prefer no big spoilers, though it shouldn't be necessary to say "read and find out" either when I'm mostly asking general questions.

1. First basic question, how does one ascend? It appears to simply be a manner of being in the right place at the right time. For example, waltzing into an Azath House (doesn't always work, apparently) or getting a beautiful tan while exposed to a fiery warren. It often appears accidental, though sometimes (such as the Path of Hands) very specific. And obviously some of the more famous ascendants of the series didn't just trip and fall into Ascendancy.

2. What exactly does Ascendancy do? Does an Ascendant simply just not age? Do they gain access to more powerful magic, get stronger, smarter? Can they still be killed by a random arrow to the face? Same questions for godhood. And do gods immediately get access to some private warren to hide in and spy on the mortals?

I like Ganoes Paran's allusion of Ascendants to "pinnacles of [people]" speech in tBH. The basic gist being that Ascendants are just generally exceptional people who have accumulated enough power in form or another that you could say they've gone past the limits of an "ordinary" person (though "ordinary" might mean different things depending on your race). There doesn't need to be any fixed attributes of an Ascendant, so each and every Ascendant could be entirely different from another. The only thing that generally applies to all of them seems to be that the vague belief by other people that they are indeed Ascendants gives them some additional general potency - not enough to survivng having their heads chopped off, but enough to resist most diseases, age better and perhaps have a bit more will-power.

 Sigurth, on 12 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

3. Why do the gods never get directly involved? It's always some form of manipulation. I'd think gods would be more proactive. Is there some kind of limit to how much they can interact with mortals or the mortal plane? In Deadhouse Gates why would Shadowthrone not simply send a couple Hounds to fulfill his plan or be like "Yo, I'm a god now, I'll take that throne back."

I appreciate any answers, even if they are purely speculative. Thank you

It seems the gods mostly don't get too directly involved in mortal affairs (like taking over a kingdom) because the other Ascendants and gods would see it as stepping too far / as a threat and team up on them.

Meanwhile, the gods don't just fight amongst themselves because for them it seems rather easy to hide and defend themselves. ie, for Shadowthrone to attack, say, Oponn, directly he or his servants need to find and travel directly into the warren/piece of a warren that Oponn has taken over as their home, where Oponn has a lot of control and defenses because it is the heart of their realm. Even if ST and his Hounds are stronger in a stand-up fight than Oponn, it would not be a stand-up fight. Nor can ST just pick up a mountain and throw it at Oponn - how would you get the mountain through whatever twisted paths are needed to reach their warren's stronghold?

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

ascendancy seems to happen not by chance, but by fate in my opinion. Various ascendancies are explained and they seem to happen to the deserving. Not to random shmoes. The skilled, or willful, or legendary figures of the world seem to ascend. I don't think a god or anything grants said ascension, its like power coalesces about them and they become more than they were. Ascendant can indeed be killed by stray arrows, one of them fears it a great deal but I won't name names as I can't remember if you will have read about them yet. Ascendants seem to be another level of powerful, far beyond mortals but beneath Godhood.

An example of the ascendancy you pointed out, of Kindly, Truth and Gesler in the fires. They were already legendary (maybe not truth so much as he was a young pup in comparison to the other guys) but they were in extraordinary situations and are extraordinary throughout them. They end up in the crazy situation maybe by fate, and ascend during the passing through the fires, their willpower and actions caused them to ascend and not by their choosing. I think that to ascend you have to not want it. You have to be worthy of it. And you have to willing to do the right thing to earn said ascension. I know its vague but these are my theories :-)

The gods can't interfere too much with the mortal realm as the other gods and indeed ascendatns, would know and roflstomp them basically. The powerful entities in the Malazan world are kept in check by the rest of the powerful entities, ensuring you don't get one super power taking over the Malazan universe.

Hope this helps! You will love the rest of the books :-)

This post has been edited by Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai: 13 February 2014 - 10:10 AM

[D'iversify]

 Sigurth, on 12 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

3. Why do the gods never get directly involved? It's always some form of manipulation. I'd think gods would be more proactive. Is there some kind of limit to how much they can interact with mortals or the mortal plane? In Deadhouse Gates why would Shadowthrone not simply send a couple Hounds to fulfill his plan or be like "Yo, I'm a god now, I'll take that throne back."

I think about this as being motivated by the same reasons why the superpowers in the Cold War tended to act through proxies rather and avoid direct conflict, namely that to do otherwise dramatically increases the risk of MAD. Having massive powers of destruction is only, after a certain point, useful as a last resort and underlying threat, particularly when loads of other entities have them as well and will happily team up to slaughter you if you play too open a hand.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 D, on 13 February 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

 Sigurth, on 12 February 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

3. Why do the gods never get directly involved? It's always some form of manipulation. I'd think gods would be more proactive. Is there some kind of limit to how much they can interact with mortals or the mortal plane? In Deadhouse Gates why would Shadowthrone not simply send a couple Hounds to fulfill his plan or be like "Yo, I'm a god now, I'll take that throne back."

I think about this as being motivated by the same reasons why the superpowers in the Cold War tended to act through proxies rather and avoid direct conflict, namely that to do otherwise dramatically increases the risk of MAD. Having massive powers of destruction is only, after a certain point, useful as a last resort and underlying threat, particularly when loads of other entities have them as well and will happily team up to slaughter you if you play too open a hand.

The other side to this is that in this world, power attracts power. What makes Shadowthrone effective is that he manipulates less powerful people and scenarios to his benefit, and doesn't personally get involved, thus negating the attraction of other powerful figures, which could complicate things a bit more.

[nacht]

Direct application of power will always be limited because the ascendant can not be there at all places influencing all events..
If you compare ST and Lasseen, Lasseen has more power even though she is not a god because she controls a large army. ST only control the hounds and as we see in GotM, it is pretty easy to lose them in a direct fight.
That is why gods want to develop the priest class, so that they can get more people to control events in the world. This is the reason why most religious cults are culled in the Malazan army.

The interesting thing about Gods and Ascendants is that they can still die or get trapped.
The big difference between them is that Gods have worshippers and they seem to have agreed to be worshiped and this seems to place some kind of binding on them.
For example, Fener is killed and Mael is trapped.

[Puck]

 Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 13 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

An example of the ascendancy you pointed out, of Kindly, Truth and Gesler in the fires. They were already legendary (maybe not truth so much as he was a young pup in comparison to the other guys) but they were in extraordinary situations and are extraordinary throughout them. They end up in the crazy situation maybe by fate, and ascend during the passing through the fires, their willpower and actions caused them to ascend and not by their choosing. I think that to ascend you have to not want it. You have to be worthy of it. And you have to willing to do the right thing to earn said ascension. I know its vague but these are my theories :-)

You mean Stormy, not Kindly. In any case, I'd also add that those three did not just survive the fire and ascend by chance, but because they were special to begin with. In the case of Gesler and Stormy, they were already legendary among the marines and had very strong wills. Truth was an exceptional person by virtue of his, well, virtues. Any more normal or less exceptional person would have simply burned in that fire. Baudin did. And Felisin and Kulp survived through going over board, had they stayed even a minute longer they would have died. Also, the fire only set them on the path to ascendancy, it did not make them fully ascend; it took the prerequisites that were already there and directed them onto the proper path, what would come of it was in the hands of Gesler, Stormy and Truth themselves.

You don't become an ascendant out of nowhere and it's a long path. It does not happen in the blink of an eye.

This post has been edited by Puck: 13 February 2014 - 04:50 PM

[Aptorian]

I would argue that becomming an ascendant can happen in an instant. Drink the right blood, get zapped with the right energy or undergo the right ritual and poof you are an ascendant. After all it's just the push over that edge that starts the fall.

I would love to get some information on how the First Empire made ascendants. Was it an elaborate process or did you just drink a potion or swallow a pill?

[Kanese S's]

The main difference between gods and ascendants is that gods have worshipers and acknowledge them. Other ascendants don't. There are probably some exceptions, but generally, gods are ascendants, but not all ascendants are gods. There are upsides and downsides to having worshipers, which is why some ascendants aren't gods by choice.

[Sigurth]

Thanks so much for the replies, I've really gotten a better handle on how Ascendants and gods work in this series. I already enjoy the books more.

One big reason why I asked if an Ascendant/god could be killed by a stray arrow was because of the scene in GotM where Paran injures a Hound with his Oponn-blessed sword. A Hound of Shadow may be a special case, but they heavily suggested that any normal sword would have done nothing. Tay and Hairlock were both like "Whaaaaaat". I figured since the Hounds seem to be basically Ascended wolves (Toc mentions Lady Envy's dog Garath could become a Hound of Shadow, and the way he phrased it sounded much like Ascendancy), then whatever was protecting the Hounds from mortal weapons would also protect gods.

[Kanese S's]

The Hounds of Shadow are... complicated...

As for ascendants and gods getting hurt... that's one of the reasons they tend to manipulate things indirectly. If they manifest fully in the mortal realm, while still incredibly powerful, they can be harmed.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

 Puck, on 13 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

 Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 13 February 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

An example of the ascendancy you pointed out, of Kindly, Truth and Gesler in the fires. They were already legendary (maybe not truth so much as he was a young pup in comparison to the other guys) but they were in extraordinary situations and are extraordinary throughout them. They end up in the crazy situation maybe by fate, and ascend during the passing through the fires, their willpower and actions caused them to ascend and not by their choosing. I think that to ascend you have to not want it. You have to be worthy of it. And you have to willing to do the right thing to earn said ascension. I know its vague but these are my theories :-)

You mean Stormy, not Kindly. In any case, I'd also add that those three did not just survive the fire and ascend by chance, but because they were special to begin with. In the case of Gesler and Stormy, they were already legendary among the marines and had very strong wills. Truth was an exceptional person by virtue of his, well, virtues. Any more normal or less exceptional person would have simply burned in that fire. Baudin did. And Felisin and Kulp survived through going over board, had they stayed even a minute longer they would have died. Also, the fire only set them on the path to ascendancy, it did not make them fully ascend; it took the prerequisites that were already there and directed them onto the proper path, what would come of it was in the hands of Gesler, Stormy and Truth themselves.

You don't become an ascendant out of nowhere and it's a long path. It does not happen in the blink of an eye.

ah yeah cheers ;-). It was fate that took to them to the fires, and their extraordinary character, willpower and character that got them through it and caused their ascendancy as a result. Definitely agree with the 'path of ascendancy' which i think is a great phrase to describe it. Just look at Karsa, took him years and a huge amount of pain, imprisonment, almost dying, travelling thousands of miles and huge amount of growing up, gaining wisdom and even learning new languages for him to get there.

[benelori]

The Hounds are indeed more complicated than mere Ascendants...read more to find out...

Also there's a good line from Knight of Knives by Esslemont...the paths to Ascendancy are very varied, and there are forces in the world that are far more ancient, and different than the current menagerie of Ascendants

I would describe a main requirement for Ascendancy...I guess purity is the word I'm looking for...purity of vision, purity of willpower, emotion...something that it's so pure and so unassailable that it's out of the ordinary and beyond the capabilities and potential of normal mortals...

This post has been edited by benelori: 15 February 2014 - 01:16 AM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I think you are referring to butt-funneling.

[Tiste Simeon]

Has Karsa ascended or is he still on the path to ascendancy? Haven't quite worked it out...

[Aptorian]

According to Samar Dev he has ascended.

[Mekeritrig]

 Apt Hoc, on 12 February 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Consider Coltain as an example, he doesn't appear to be magically or racially empowered, yet he is described as being on the cusp of ascending. This is because of the sheer magnitude of his willpower perhaps but it may also be caused by the position he holds, he is a leader who holds the focus of thousands of soldiers and civilians. That responsibility, and the image of him that the thousands of people have of him in their minds and hearts, most likely is pushing him to become more than just a general and a leader.

There's also the power of belief. With all of Seven Cities honoring him and believing in his awesomeness, Coltaine becomes what they believe him to be. Same thing with Stormy and Gesler. After being exposed to the power of the warren that starts them on the path of ascendency, they go on to become the MS and SA of the KChain which strengthens them by virtue of the KCCM's belief in their efficacy.