[Bendelo]

Was just reading through midnight tides again and in one of uudinas dream scenes it mentions that spite an envy were the offspring of draconus and sheltathor lore, one of scabandaris three daughters. I thought it was olar ethil and draconus that had the evil sisters?

[Aptorian]

As we can see in FOD the information in MT is obviously false. The question is why? Did Erikson retcon it? Or is the information somehow allegorical or a matter of legal titles or adoption?

I think we have to wait and see what happens later in the books.

[Garak]

Not to mention unreliable narrators and things happening hundreds of thousand of years ago (so people's memories might become twisted).

This post has been edited by Garak: 23 January 2014 - 06:20 PM

[Aptorian]

The problem with that idea is that you then raise questions about everything.

It's been a long time but as far as I recall this is an actual memory fragment of an event that occured. The Gods and ascendants that appear are all real and they did say the things they said. There is no reason to think this is false memory.

As far as I recall this event is triggered by Silchas Ruin, right? Or do we think it is the Eres? Which ever one it was, they were obviously not there in the flesh themselves, so most likely it is some kind of imprint in Space/time that is brought forth.

[Bendelo]

I can't recall the exact wording of the olar ethil meeting but is there any way she could have been saying it in a more general sense like children of azathanai rather than actually her offspring?

[Aptorian]

Is it possible? Perhaps.

But everything about Draconus and Olar Ethil in FOD suggested that the two were lovers.

[Puck]

Quote

[...] He told himself that he remembered his half-sisters' mother, a brooding, heavy woman with a strange face, who had either died or departed shortly after weaning the triplets she had borne, but a later comment from Tutor Sagander suggested that the woman he'd remembered had been a wet-nurse, a witch of the Dog-Runners who dwelt beyond the Solitude. [...]

One can make of this whatever one wants, but it kinda sorta points to Olar Ethil having been around at the time Envy, Spite and Malice were born. Of course, it's just a vague memory of Arathan. On the other hand, I think Sagander is lying about it being a wet-nurse, just because we know Sagander's the type to do so.

[Khazduk]

Slightly off-topic, but it just struck me (and possibly also concerning "Arathan's true identity") - isn't there a Arahatan or something very similar that in MT, one of the Letherii mages who are killed during the start of the Edur invasion? But iirc he gets killed till he's really dead and he never is anywhere close to Udinaas, right?

[tiam]

Khazduk, on 24 January 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Slightly off-topic, but it just struck me (and possibly also concerning "Arathan's true identity") - isn't there a Arahatan or something very similar that in MT, one of the Letherii mages who are killed during the start of the Edur invasion? But iirc he gets killed till he's really dead and he never is anywhere close to Udinaas, right?

Yes I believe shes one of the mages that launches the attack on the Letherii villages. Its very close to Arathan, and shes said to be almost rivalling the Ceda. But its unlikely theres a link as shes never near Udinaas and dies after jumping from the light house after the city of Dresh or or something like that is attacked and she pierces the creatures side aiming for its heart only to discover its an ancient god with no heart.

Apt is completely right. If we call 'well it was a long time ago'/inconsistent memory on one thing then we can do it on everything that we dont physically see happening which isnt sustainable.

[Felisin Fatter]

Well, the Sisters thing with Sheltatha Lore, Ankhadu (sp?) en Menandore is certainly metaphorical, and so is the claim that Scabandari is their father. My guess is the 'sisters' join Scabandari's army, leading a part of it together, and perhaps Spite and Envy join that unit. Like, a unit made up (mostly) of women and the sisters styling themselves 'mothers' of their soldiers. I could see that happening 5-10 years after the point the book's at now. Let's wait for the rest of the trilogy to find out...

[Felisin Fatter]

Puck, on 24 January 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Quote

[...] He told himself that he remembered his half-sisters' mother, a brooding, heavy woman with a strange face, who had either died or departed shortly after weaning the triplets she had borne, but a later comment from Tutor Sagander suggested that the woman he'd remembered had been a wet-nurse, a witch of the Dog-Runners who dwelt beyond the Solitude. [...]

One can make of this whatever one wants, but it kinda sorta points to Olar Ethil having been around at the time Envy, Spite and Malice were born. Of course, it's just a vague memory of Arathan. On the other hand, I think Sagander is lying about it being a wet-nurse, just because we know Sagander's the type to do so.

I think it was a wet-nurse, but her being 'a dog-runner witch' does strongly suggest that Olar Ethil picked her for the job. However, I think Arathan's memories are extrmely unreliable, so it could mean something entirely different as well.

[Bendelo]

Menandore’s eyes fell to the motionless form of Sheltatha Lore. ‘This one. She took a lover from among this world’s gods, did she not?’
‘For a time. Begetting two horrid little children.’
‘Horrid? Daughters, then.’ Sukul nodded. ‘And their father saw that clearly enough from the very start, for he named them appropriately.’
‘Oh? And what were those names, sister?’ ‘Envy and Spite.’ Menandore smiled.
‘This god – I think I would enjoy meeting him one day.

This is the passage from midnight tides I was talking about, they don't seem at all like they are speculating to me.

This post has been edited by Bendelo: 30 January 2014 - 09:45 AM

[Kanese S's]

So... a couple things.

First, being draconic when you didn't start that way doesn't seem to be good for the brain, given that Sukul Ankhadu seems to be a relatively good-hearted young lady in FOD, as I recall, but by the main serious is a complete psycho. Given what's going on in the conversation, it's likely that some mental changes had already happened by that time. So Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu are hardly reliable narrators.

Second, we, the readers, know that Spite, Envy, and Malice are the children of Olar Ethil. Draconus also knows that. Olar Ethil also knows that. The others who go with Draconus on his journey with Arathan also probably picked up on that. However, by the end of FOD, that's pretty much it as far as anyone knowing anything about the three (well, except that they're horrible, murderous, little monsters). Who's to say that Sukul and Mendandore ever find out their actual parentage? Especially with a full blown civil war about to happen. Perhaps Sheltatha Lore and Draconus do become lovers for a time. If Olar Ethil's and Draconus' earlier relationship is still not known, it might be later assumed that Envy and Spite came about as a result of Sheltatha's and Draconus' (possible) fling. Especially if Sheltatha for whatever reason claimed them as hers. Who's going to argue with her?

Lastly, there is the whole weird way that family ties become... weird... with the blood of Tiam and such. So maybe there's some strangeness happening there, too.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if this is resolved.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Nice way to frame it, Kanese. There's also the part about how they talk about Arathan being younger than them but aging faster. Maybe that has to do with him possibly being part Tiste, but whatever the reason for it, Envy Spite and Malice are being kept young somehow, Once they made their escape from House Dracons, they could invent the whole scenario that Sheltatha was their mother, possibly to ally with that troublemaking group of Tistes. We see Sheltatha in FoD as a young conniver who ensnares Sagander in her web of deceit, when her mother gave her to Sagander as a reward.

To me, it seems like the whole MT scene quoted above is most likely a reality, and Sukul and Menandore are merely misled as to who those two children's mother really was. I'm sure the next book in the trilogy will shed some light on this, but I wouldn't bet the farm on a complete clearing up of facts.

[Puck]

Well, what strikes me as interresting in that conversation is how all of them seem to have different degrees of knowledge about the issue.. First, we have Sukul who is the only one coming forth with 'facts'. Menandore only seems to know that Sheltatha took a lover, she does not even know who it was. And Sheltatha herself is blissfully unconscious and can't comment on the matter. So it all boils down to Sukul, and she could be just talking bullshit, speculating or working on half-facts, along the lines of Menandore assuming the children are daughters based on the 'horrid little creatures' part.
In conclusion, all we really can take away from this now is that Sheltatha had a fling with Draconus. She might as well have taken care/a liking to Envy and Spite and then it would, of course, look like they're her daughters to anyone not privy to their real parentage [and barely anyone is, except those immediately involved, as we can see from FoD].

[Kanese S's]

Not to mention that but the time of the series, Sukul is... off... enough to go around eating people's lungs for fun.

[Felisin Fatter]

Yes, I can see that scenario: Envy and Spite end up with Sheltatha (for a short time, if her 'sisters' never met them, or at some point long after FoD), she claims to be their mother. They are obviously not Tiste children, so she can casually claim to have had a god for a lover (hinting at Draconus maybe, if it suits her purpose). Bet she loves that.
Or is it possible that the quote is another one of Erikson's sleight of hands, where the speaker is looking at something (Sheltata), but talking about something else (Burn / Olar Ethil)?

[Aptorian]

The eating lungs stuff I assume is the Draconian blood. Rake went to great lengths to suppress that quality. We see that Ruin has problems with his emotions.

I imagine that the Sisters were much more willing to revel in the power of the draconian blood.

And after all Human beings are probably quite tasty.

[worry]

I think the three sister-cousins may have drunk dragon blood multiple times, and that's why their "parentage" might be tricky. Scabandari, for example, had to be convinced of his fatherhood somehow after all, and if we're thinking of the Osserc/Scabandari parentage as figurative -- something like draconian sponsorship -- it works. And down the line Envy and Spite may have done something similar. And as a result, they're all nuts.

This post has been edited by worry: 03 February 2014 - 09:38 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

The multiple times thing is definitely a possibility, and I like the idea a lot. But getting into specifics, is Envy actually draconean soletaken or just Spite? I don't recall Envy ever veering on screen or off. Anyway, Baruk must have been pissed to the gills when he drew that chart up.