[Aptorian]

Speaking of the Draconian family tree. I just remembered Phaed, Nimanders sister, was on the tree. How the hell did she die from a fall out of a window if she was near indestructable?

Which obviously means that Phaed isn't dead.

And that she is really Grizzin Farl,

[worry]

Hey, Kilmandaros proved that even a bonk on the head can kill a dragon in the right circumstances.

[Aptorian]

Don't ruin this for me!

[Kanese S's]

Maybe Apt, on 03 February 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

The eating lungs stuff I assume is the Draconian blood. Rake went to great lengths to suppress that quality. We see that Ruin has problems with his emotions.

I imagine that the Sisters were much more willing to revel in the power of the draconian blood.

And after all Human beings are probably quite tasty.

Yeah. Knowing what Sukul was before makes it all the more sad.

[Kanese S's]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 03 February 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

The multiple times thing is definitely a possibility, and I like the idea a lot. But getting into specifics, is Envy actually draconean soletaken or just Spite? I don't recall Envy ever veering on screen or off. Anyway, Baruk must have been pissed to the gills when he drew that chart up.

Given all you know of Envy and Spite, can you really imagine both of them surviving so long if one could turn into a giant, badass dragon, and the other couldn't?

I'm always given the impression that Envy and Spite are equal in power. Spite being soletaken while Envy isn't would make them noticeably unequal.

[Kanese S's]

worry, on 03 February 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

I think the three sister-cousins may have drunk dragon blood multiple times, and that's why their "parentage" might be tricky. Scabandari, for example, had to be convinced of his fatherhood somehow after all, and if we're thinking of the Osserc/Scabandari parentage as figurative -- something like draconian sponsorship -- it works. And down the line Envy and Spite may have done something similar. And as a result, they're all nuts.

Though, of course, Envy and Spite were already kinda nuts.

[worry]

That's a fact, jack.

[Captain Beardface]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 24 January 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

Apt is completely right. If we call 'well it was a long time ago'/inconsistent memory on one thing then we can do it on everything that we dont physically see happening which isnt sustainable.

Garak is right, go read SE's first answer in this interview: http://www.lightspee...steven-erikson/

Anything stated about the distant past in tMBotF can't be taken as absolute truth.

[Aptorian]

Yes, we can raise questions about the legends and myths. Like the Edur legends of betrayal for example.

However, if we begin to doubt passages where we actually see the characters, and hear them give us an infodump, then nothing in the series is certain from there on in.

Then we can just start saying that there isn't actually an Malazan Empire, it's just a story. The Bridgeburners are probably a 7C tribe, 7C is the name for a Vitamin supplement in Lether, Tiam is not actually slut, etc.

You have to rely on your sources to a certain extent. We can analyze them and judge what kind of political, cultural or personal interests they might have for saying or believing what they do but you have to use what you've got. In this case why would they lie? And why would their information be false? All the people mentioned in that passage are people of note that anyone in power would know about.

[Kanese S's]

I would just like to reiterate that at the end of FoD, there are about... I don't know, maybe seven people, who know Envy, Spite, and Malice's actual mother is. And that includes Draconus and Olar Ethil.

And for some of them, the fact that Olar Ethil is the terrible triplets' mother probably pales in comparison to the fact that she ate their friend's head with her belly.

[PutCashInTwo]

"The problem with that idea is that you then raise questions about everything."




After 16,000 post and god knows how many re-reads, you find this a surprising/worrying concept?

[Aptorian]

I don't like the notion that "actual events" as they really occurred in the past, can be called into question. The idea of a character lying or being misinformed is fine, but actual physical events that are witnessed turning out to not be true is troubling.

Then every single thing we read is no longer "certain". Whiskeyjack may not have met Paran in the Mouse Quarter. Lasseen never tried to assassinate Kelanved and Dancer. Ottataral isn't really magically deadening, etc. These are all things we have seen on the page, just like the memory fragment Udinaas walks into is an event that actually happened and the words exchanged were the ones we read. The memory fragment is a sliver of time that Silchas Ruin brings Udinaas into, Ruin was never there, therefore there is no-one to missremember the memory. It's simply an afterimage burned into that part of the forest.

The sisters and Osserc know the things they know and they said the things they said.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 03 March 2014 - 09:41 AM

[Kanese S's]

But do they? How do you think they know? Who told them? How did they find out? I don't think that as of the end of FoD, we can really assume that anyone but Draconus and Olar Ethil and Arathan and the others on the trip know who the triplets' mother is. Hell, the sisters themselves don't even know, it seems like.

[Aptorian]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens during the war but as of FOD Sheltatha Lore was just a girl... or was it a teenager? And Draconus had no known relation to her.

As has been speculated, maybe she adopts Envy and Spite into her family. Maybe there are Tiste titles or family traditions we don't understand. I just find it unlikely that Osserc and the Sisters would be that missinformed. If nothing else, their draconian/ascendant/magical nature should suggest that they could actually feel the blood relations of Envy, Spite or Sheltatha.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Remember though, they are Tiste, and their ages are different than that of a human. How old were Nimander and Co. yet they came across as teenagers. Same with Orchid in OST. Their longevity changes the perspective of time and the relative nature of youth.

Also, re: Osserc and the Sisters being uninformed. Osserc is infamous for being aloof, and his lack of knowledge about Draconus' kids isn't that surprising, especially considering we now know that he is Tiste, and Draconus - and thus Envy and Spite - is Azathanai. The sisters are a bizarre situation, but they too are merely Tiste, although draconian soletaken tiste, which does lend itself to something more, but also something less. I'm looking forward to seeing the soletaken ritual and their relationship with Emurlahn and Father Shadow.