[Daeg]

I didn't read all the replies so if I duplicate what's already been said....well...who cares.

This series is for someone who not only doesn't mind rearranging the puzzle pieces...but who loves it...

A lot of things tie together eventually...and some do not..at least not in the 10....

I loved lotr and sofai.. But in my humble opinion....they lack serious depth compared to mbotf...

Everyone has their favorite authors and writing styles...for example...I HATE to read Stephen king but I love the books on tape...I just don't like to read his writing..but the story is great...weird, I know...

There was never a time in mbotf that I felt like I didn't like it...I was always challenged and stretched to the limits of my comprehension...but I always enjoyed it...

If you don't care for it, I wouldn't worry about it..when it ends people think about it and reread it for years....don't put yourself through that if you think you won't like it..

[Abyss]

Mr Knightmare, on 06 January 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Quote

After years and pages of doorstopper trilogy authors who felt the need to spoonfeed to whatever degree, here was an author who threw the reader into the story and said 'here... you figure it out'.

I don't mind not having training wheels when learning to ride a bike. But Erikson't doesn't just take off the training wheels he puts you on a 20 meter tall ramp and then expect from you you ride down,do a somersault tough 10 rings of fire and then fly over a line of monster trucks and a pool filled with sharks and then land safely and do a hand stand. And let me tell you it wasn't a pleasant ride.

We're clearly at opposite ends on this point because i loved that aspect of it.

Quote

...Complexity for complexity sake isn't a good thing in my mind. You can't force something to be an epic, something becomes an epic the more you go into and the deeper you travel, throwing a reader head deep in an overcomplicated world, which is overcomplicated just for the sake of being overcomplicated because Erikson doesn't seem to have the patience to gradually reveal the world to you and instead jusr randomly throws you into the middle of a bunch of random unconnected events....

One last point on this because no one needs to convince anyone of anything here: The 'real' world has been around about a billion years before we showed up, and a whole lot of sometimes random and unconnected events took place during that time. Erikson is an anthropologist and archeologist and he writes with that in mind. It's not 'over'complicated, rather he doesn't oversimplify. Also, without spoiling anything, it's not nearly as random and unconnected as it seems, but your call whether you feel like sticking around for the rest of the story. There are piles of awesome authors out there writing the sort of thing you seem to prefer.

[Daeg]

Just read more of the replies and responses...

Umm..you might be reading the wrong set...

This story is bigger than any 1 character...its bigger than any 5 characters...

This story is immense...characters come and go...characters dying in the first book may have a huge effect or almost none at all...I'm reminded of the saying "not seeing the forest for the trees"...

There is so much more to absorb and rearrange...so many new people to meet and like or hate....and then learn more about...so many more plots with staggering back history...

The depth of this story has no comparison with anything I've ever encountered so there's no way to give an example that would do it justice...

Judging this story by the first book is like judging the lotr story by the first 50 pages...in other words...Erikson is just getting started...

[Mr Knightmare]

Quote

Judging this story by the first book is like judging the lotr story by the first 50 pages...in other words...Erikson is just getting started...

And this is part of the problem. I HATE people telling me that "you can't judge a series just by the first book/first three episodes/first movie in the trilogy etc.

Yes I can. Nothing is beyond judgment I can very well say that the soup tasted like an Ogre's armpit even tough I might have a great barbeque coming my way. And if the main course does end up as the most amazing thing ever that still doesn't change the fact that I tasted an Ogre's armpit.

If the first of ANYTHING doesn't grab me than what's the point? Isn't that the point of the first book? To make me want more? To make me fall in love with the world or the character so that I crave to learn more about it and them?

If I didn't get DH for free I would NEVER go and read it because I tough that GoTM was awful. Why waste my time on an 800+ page book when I have already read one from the same author and I have an experience with it and I hated it? I could be spending that time with another book that I might enjoy.

This post has been edited by Mr Knightmare: 06 January 2014 - 08:23 PM

[worry]

Sounds like you've answered your own questions.

[Vengeance]

Mr Knightmare, on 06 January 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Quote

Judging this story by the first book is like judging the lotr story by the first 50 pages...in other words...Erikson is just getting started...

And this is part of the problem. I HATE people telling me that "you can't judge a series just by the first book/first three episodes/first movie in the trilogy etc.

Yes I can. Nothing is beyond judgment I can very well say that the soup tasted like an Ogre's armpit even tough I have a great barbeque coming my way.

If the first of ANYTHING doesn't grab me than what's the point? Isn't that the point of the first book? To make me want more? To make me fall in love with the world or the character so that I crave to learn more about it and them?

If I didn't get DH for free I would NEVER go and read it because I tough that GoTM was awful. Why waste my time on an 800+ page book when I have already read one from the same author and I have an experience with it and I hated it? I could be spending that time with another book that I might enjoy.

Obviously the book had a profound effect on you. So much so that you felt the need to come on a forum about the series where you are sure to run into people who like and enjoy the book and spout off how much you hate the book. Thus leading me to one conclusion above all others

TROLL BEGONE!!! BEGONE I SAY!!!

[Abyss]

Mr Knightmare, on 06 January 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Quote

Judging this story by the first book is like judging the lotr story by the first 50 pages...in other words...Erikson is just getting started...

And this is part of the problem. I HATE people telling me that "you can't judge a series just by the first book/first three episodes/first movie in the trilogy etc.

I'm actually with you on this point. I rarely continue with a series or author if the first book doesn't hook me at least a little bit.


...which brings us to...

Quote

If I didn't get DH for free I would NEVER go and read it because I tough that GoTM was awful. Why waste my time on an 800+ page book when I have already read one from the same author and I have an experience with it and I hated it? I could be spending that time with another book that I might enjoy.

...per the top post your friend pimped the series hard and bought you the two books. You wouldn't be the first person to be unimpressed with GotM and hooked with DG, but considering the depth of dislike you're expressing here, why are you bothering? Give him back the two books, thank him for trying and suggest he give them to someone else.
If you're looking for us to convince you to continue then i think the upthread has all the points we're likely to make, but you don't seem to be convinced its worth your time. It's a huge book... hell of a commitment considering.



Semi-relatedly, now i'm curious which fantasy authors you DO like?

[Puck]

I will never understand what some people find so difficult and complicated about GotM. It's not exactly the easiest book, but back when I read it for the first time I was 14 and everything seemed clear enough.

There are so many things I want to add to the discussion, but I have trouble to finds the right words, and it all would come down to one thing, anyway: if you think it's not for you, then it may be that it indeed is not. People are different, and reading preferences are, too.

The thing about GotM is that it was written some 10 to 15 years before DG, and it shows in the quality, while still being a good book. I don't feel like it's trying to be complicated just to be complicated [see my first sentence], but it's also partly teh way it id to weed out those who don't have the endurance. Ah, I think there are so many layers to why GotM is the way it is, and for those of us who frequent that forum and keep reading and reareading this series that first book happened to strike a vital chord. It may not do so for others.

Also, if you want escapism and a story you can forget the real world while reading.. you might want to stay away, then, because SE has expressed on numerous occasions what he thinks about that kind of story and also because almost everyone who's read this series to the end, be it once or more times, will tell you that these books change you.

But actually, I'm posting this here just because I wanted to throw some links into this thread that I think may be relevant, mostly because they give a perspective on why GotM is the way it is. But again, if you hate it, it may just not be for you.

In case you haven't read it yet, here you can read the introduction SE wrote for the 10-year-anniversary edition of GotM where he muses of why he made it as [supposedly] complicated as it is.

And here are some musings on the difference between GotM and DG, of which I'm going to quote the relevant parts.

Quote

I touched on your question in the first post. You also ask if there were any scenes or narrative thoughts that came about through something experienced between the writing of Gardens and Deadhouse Gates. I don't doubt that there were. Gardens, don't forget, was partially gamed and then made into a feature film script. I felt a loyalty to recounting events, with considerable elaboration here and there. But, for example, I probably had fresh in my mind the blast we had playing out the Fete at Simtal's Estate, right down to me (as Kruppe, replete with pastry-smeared cherub mask) marching straight up to Rake (whom Cam had taken over as an npc for that session) for an outrageous encounter. And I remember rolling the dice as Rallick when facing Turban Orr (and if I would have then messed up, we would have played it through honestly, and that scene in Gardens would probably be quite different). So there was reminiscence and joy in the writing of Gardens of the Moon.

Between the two novels ... well, with Deadhouse Gates I was creating a fresh story, not gamed, while making use of a setting made familiar by other campaigns played out there (Kellanved and Dancer's conquest of Seven Cities, etc). But the plot and most of the characters came pretty much from my own head.

In another sense, I was now able to create with great deliberation, shaping events precisely how I wanted them shaped. I've mentioned elsewhere that I 'rolled up my sleeves' when it came to Deadhouse Gates. Gardens had set the stage, in terms of the world and its atmosphere, and did much of the groundwork on the kind of characters this world produced. So the foundations were set: now I wanted to see just what I could build on them.

As to the question of rereads, allow me to quote Gene Wolfe:

My definition of good literature is that which can be read by an educated reader, and reread with increased pleasure.

I don't reread the MBotF because I don't understand what is going on, but because I gain pleasure from doing so. And my personal opinion is that if that's not the case, if you don't feel like you're gaining anything from a book, and it does not have to be pleasure necessarily, you might as well leave it. Or, you know, try at another time. There are many members of this forum who first could not gain anything from GotM, but did so when they tried at a different stage in their lives.

[Aptorian]

To be honest I agree with Knightmare.

The smart peole say that when you write a book, you get one page to sell a book to the agent or editor or who ever. When you try to sell a book to the customer you can't tell them that hey, I know this book aint great but just keep reading. For most people, the most valuable thing they have is their time. Why keep wasting time on a series you don't like, when there are so many more out there? Far more books than you could hope to read in a life time.

For that same reason I have left several book and TV series and videogames behind, despite being told they get better or that I just don't get it.

Still, one should definitely read Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice before giving up.

[Puck]

Mr Knightmare, on 06 January 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

If the first of ANYTHING doesn't grab me than what's the point? Isn't that the point of the first book? To make me want more? To make me fall in love with the world or the character so that I crave to learn more about it and them?

If I didn't get DH for free I would NEVER go and read it because I tough that GoTM was awful. Why waste my time on an 800+ page book when I have already read one from the same author and I have an experience with it and I hated it? I could be spending that time with another book that I might enjoy.

I wonder what kind of answer you want here.. Of course it is the point of it all; I don't think there's any author out there who does actively not want to grab a reader on page one, but the thing is, different people are grabbed by different things, and while GotM was not for you, I loved it from page one.

Asking what's the point is a nonsensical question in this case. I think acknowledging the fact that an author may not want to grab every reader that ever touches his book or may have a different kind of reader in mind when writing his book than the author next door is part of being a mature reader. Just move on if it's not your cup of tea. There are too many books out there to waste time arguing about that kind of stuff.

[HoosierDaddy]

I find that the person who anally goes back and forth through GotM, appendix checking, map checking, trying to figure things out as they are reading is going to have a bad time. It simply needs to be read and what answers are there will be given to you when Erikson wants to. No amount of pouring over the aftermath of Pale is going to make it make more sense until it does later on.

Malazan probably isn't for you from what it sounds like, but GotM is probably considered one of the worst of the 10 main sequence novels in comparison to the others. But, I won't try to convince you to move on. Don't want to waste your time or mine.

[Daeg]

Mr Knightmare, on 06 January 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Quote

Judging this story by the first book is like judging the lotr story by the first 50 pages...in other words...Erikson is just getting started...

And this is part of the problem. I HATE people telling me that "you can't judge a series just by the first book/first three episodes/first movie in the trilogy etc.

Yes I can. Nothing is beyond judgment I can very well say that the soup tasted like an Ogre's armpit even tough I might have a great barbeque coming my way. And if the main course does end up as the most amazing thing ever that still doesn't change the fact that I tasted an Ogre's armpit.

If the first of ANYTHING doesn't grab me than what's the point? Isn't that the point of the first book? To make me want more? To make me fall in love with the world or the character so that I crave to learn more about it and them?

If I didn't get DH for free I would NEVER go and read it because I tough that GoTM was awful. Why waste my time on an 800+ page book when I have already read one from the same author and I have an experience with it and I hated it? I could be spending that time with another book that I might enjoy.

I didn't say that you can't or shouldn't..I made a comparison...based on the content of the first book compared to where the story takes us in the long run. The first book is just the beginning...

But judging by your previous replies...before this one...I agree that this is not the set for you...your preferences clearly rule this set out with very little wiggle room.

Before I started reading this set, I read about 100 reviews. Most of those reviews said exactly what you're saying now. Instead of pushing me away, it encouraged me to try it out. I never struggled with anything in the first book. I understood and made connections and enjoyed the book. Anything I didn't understand, I put aside and waited for the story to unfold.

Gotm was incredible. I don't recommend it to my friends though, because I understand what the average reader wants out of a book and this set requires much more from its reader.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I can't believe I read this whole thread. Can this be moved to the "Irascible GotM First-timers" forum?

[Daeg]

Not Brent Weeks, on 06 January 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

To be honest I agree with Knightmare.

The smart peole say that when you write a book, you get one page to sell a book to the agent or editor or who ever. When you try to sell a book to the customer you can't tell them that hey, I know this book aint great but just keep reading. For most people, the most valuable thing they have is their time. Why keep wasting time on a series you don't like, when there are so many more out there? Far more books than you could hope to read in a life time.

For that same reason I have left several book and TV series and videogames behind, despite being told they get better or that I just don't get it.

Still, one should definitely read Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice before giving up.

Absolutely. But joining a site dedicated to a story isn't exactly moving on. It normally would show an authentic desire to hear what other people like about a book. And my answer to that is...if you truly want to learn what's so great about this set...read on..you've only scratched the surface..

[Daeg]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 January 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

I can't believe I read this whole thread. Can this be moved to the "Irascible GotM First-timers" forum?

That was my mistake, i got involved before I read the entire thread....oops

This post has been edited by Daeg: 06 January 2014 - 09:35 PM

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Also, FWIW...

I'm not much of a fan of LotR. Like GotM, I think it was OK. But better things happened later.

[A Demon Llama!]

I read GoTM three times. First time I didnt know wtf was heppening and just continued with the books. Cant say I enjoyed it the same way I would a normal non crazy book. Second time I really liked it as I could follow it and the third reading I REALLY enjoyed it. So just read the series cause its fucken worth it.

[Trull's son]

If you hate it as much as you do, might be best just to move on as others have suggested. The difficult entry into the series is in part due to Erikson's skill at the time of GotM's writing, but it is also partly intentional. The feeling of confusion is created specifically to mimic the feelings of the Hero in the traditional hero's journey. I did a bit of digging for this interview, but in my opinion it is one of the best out there with Erikson. The interview itself starts at the 8 minute mark, but the hero's journey explanation starts at the 17 minute mark. I do not think there are any spoilers in the interview itself, though he does mention the opening pov character from HoC, and talks a bit about the narrator from TtH.

http://www.adventure...steven-erikson/

[amphibian]

Mr Knightmare, on 06 January 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Yeah sorry I hate Anomander Rake and everything about him he was the single worst thing in the book. I'm sorry but he is the epitome of a 13-year old fanfiction character, if you took all of the worst deviantart fancharacter you'll probably get something like this. He's a big dark amazing dude with silver hair who existed before time itself and carries a sword of darkness twice his size that doesn't kill you but sends you in another dimension where you pull a giant wheel in chains for all eternity and can shoot rays of darkness and has a giant floating fortress of darkness and his own cult of assassins that are like holy shit super awesome and has a harem of dragon bitches that he commands because he's awesome and he can turn into a dragon and everybody is scared of him and has to lick his boots and he can kill demons and gods and demon-gods and HOLY SHIT SO EDGY AND AWESOME OMG!!!

Please tell me he gets killed in the near future and is never mentioned ever again...

This isn't anywhere near as glorious as "our" Drenai's legendary post, but it's still a big laugh to read.

Erikson has a way of subverting your expectations that is rather enjoyable - if you enjoy that sort of thing. It's not a terrible thing to dislike the writing or a scrumptulescent one to love his writing. You're a person. You have opinions, which are hopefully well thought out and match up well with reality.

Read on or not. It's up to you.

Read it for your friend, if nothing else. See what's going on there and talk considerately with him. If he trashes LotR to you, would you be mad? So don't do the same to him and listen to what he says, see if you're convinced and go ahead. Consider that your friend who put his own money and reputation on the line and a few other people here and elsewhere are collectively telling you that the series is pretty good. Some of the "Malazan likers" are famous and rich. Most aren't. But it is a pretty good series to me.

So... that's it. Read or don't read. Up to you.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

This series is quite clearly not for you. You seem to be looking for a reason to continue but to everyone's comments urging you on, your reply has been little more than 'BUT I HATE IT!' (paraphrased).

If you want to read Deadhouse Gates because you own it and you can, then by all means go ahead but, to be honest, you'll probably waste your time. Your issues with GotM run deeper than just 'I didn't like this character' and 'this plot was boring'; you hate the author, his writing style and the very essence of the book, so, frankly, why would you go and pick up another one which is written to the exact same format?

All of the things that people are recommending about the series, you're either arguing against or you're saying that you hate said aspects so, unless you're just looking for an excuse to come back and troll when you're finished—which, actually, I don't think you are—my advice would be to find something more to your own tastes.

For the record though, I agree with someone upthread (maybe Puck?), in that I also don't really get what people find so hatefully complicated about it! Granted, I didn't understand everything in it's entirety the first time I read it, but the plot wasn't hard to follow (yes, there is a plot). Nor do I agree that Erikson fails to describe things (QB is black!)—you seem to imply that the whole book just comprises random snippets of dialogue, but I've never had any problems with envisioning the world or a character or a scene. I too, get the impression that you glossed over large sections, simply because I can't see how you managed to miss so much of what was written, unless of course you're so blinded by hatred for the book that you're impressions of it are skewed...in which case, again, why bother to continue?

It's widely agreed that GotM isn't a perfect book and of course, Erikson's writing isn't for everyone and there's no shame in that! However, you do appear to be wildly exaggerating the actual issues that the book does have to epic (ha!) proportions and you could probably ease up on that just a tad (especially on a fan forum)!

Anyway, do what you will!