[Fanderay]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.

This is technically true, but misrepresents the context.

My vote on Togg wasn't following Ultama's, so much as being prompted by seeing Ultama's vote as scummy (hence why I then go for Ultama - hardly a 180).

do you mean MO instead of Ultama? I don't remember you ever voting Ultama yesterday.

I didn't vote Ultama. I thought he was referring to me voting Togg (who Ultama had voted), and then attacking Ultama, something that was similarly called "erratic" yesterday (by Ultama I think).

If he's talking about my MO vote, then I also can't see what he means by 180, given I'd mentioned MO being very middle of the road earlier, and has also made it clear I was around to vote Ultama.

The underlined part. I don't understand.

Also, if you thought Ultama's vote on Togg was scummy, why follow him?

you guys are just confusing the hell out of me!

I thought Ultama's vote for Togg was scummy.
I followed him onto Togg because I thought it could be scummy in the sense of a signal, and voting the person who is the symp in that scenario doesn't make sense.
I then put pressure on Ultama for scummy behaviour (and also for the possibility of the vote being scummy in a non symp way - i.e, faking participation, but not wanting to be the first vote etc).

This game seems a bit low on the reading comprehension front.

I see. I'm too used to "putting pressure=vote". when you said you pressured Ultama, I got confused.

and yes, assumptions abound in this game, it's true...

[Trake]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

This game seems a bit low on the reading comprehension front.

Maybe running two games at the same time wasn't the greatest idea...

Stupid fuddy-duddies, interfering with our sprightly game...grumble...

You would hope it wouldn't make an impact after only 6 pages though.

[Trake]

I'm going to get some dinner, then do some work, so the game is getting moved into the background now, should still be around a bit.

[Jalan]

The problem I have with Ultama's weird multi-casing is that he doesn't even stick to his supposed 4 suspects. Even after building four cases on people, he still then goes and analyzes and criticizes Fanderay. Then he has other posts pushing the idea of Trake being symp

ie

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

So when I come back town, you lynch him and we are two down yeah? Fuck sake. Your a dumb ass. Okay let's roll with that. I had a vote from Pallid and you, Monok follows that vote. That is three votes on me. What does Trake do? Trake votes for Monok!!! Which then Monok responds with a self vote. What??

It fuicking blows your mind. Trake should have voted for me and that would have put me on 4 votes, after that it's easy for anyone to vote, Grasp ended up voting, so that is 5, we may have got to a lynch. Out of Monok and Trake I would put Trake as a symp in comparison. Monok didn't have enough posts to be a symp and would he have removed if Trake didn't vote him??

Generally if you're going to make a case you should stick to it and push it. Leave the analysis of other players outside your case to other players to make cases on.

After all, the case you are pushing is the one you most believe is likely to give us scum right?

Instead here we have Ultama making FOUR cases and he STILL can't stick to them, needs to drag other semi-cases into the mix too!

This doesn't look like town play to me. If anything this looks like symp play throwing tons of crap on thread and trying to make a target out of as many players as possible while still trying to maintain a facade of reasonableness.

It seems a bit premature since Monok was always a good target today and so if Ultama is a symp he didn't really need to do this. But I've seen weirder cases of symps going crazy earlier than they need to so I'm going to keep reading into this and see if it goes anywhere.

[Ghennan]

I like the fact that Ultama put a bunch of thoughts out there. It gave us a lot of targets and connections to look at, and while I don't necessarily agree with some of his points, I think it has kick-started some really important conversation. I've found in mafia recently that you can't really rely on other people to make cases, because not everyone has the time or inclination, and there seem to be an increasing number of people who hold back until the end, so not much goes on in the beginning. Ultama's suspect pool was kind of haphazardly chosen anyway, so I can see why he's bouncing around looking at other people, and investigating them as they come up.

In saying that, I do really like Fanderay's connection of Monok and Ultama. I need to go back and read up on why those two ping my scumdar though.

[Jalan]

So reading back, it seems to me that if I apply Ultama's logic of why he thinks people are scum to himself who is already going totally off the wall, it looks like Ultama is the symp to Ghennan.

(Please for the love of god read this with your tongue in your cheek)

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Whilst looking at a couple of players, a thought did strike me that the killer may have off thread communication which would affect their online presence in thread. So those with low but content ridden posts ring higher on my scum dar, they are taking the time to construct posts on thread but not many of them.

Fits Ghennan? Check

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Cast has on thread interaction with Jalan, with only 4/5 posts this stands out to me a little because that is something you establish off thread. There have been times when I have been scum and that my pardner has asked for a little interaction so that it looks a little like we don't know each other. So Cast makes a post that both Fanderay and Jalan respond to.

There was a fancy little bit of Ultama-Ghennan interaction earlier today, though the "best post evar" bit from Ultama might've been overdoing it.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Back to casualness.

I think Grasp does not want to come across as confrontational. I think we can count on their vote though when it gets down to it.

That sounds like Ghennan too! His comments on the cases have been very non-critical no matter which way he is commenting.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Page one is the Jalan show. Look how eager he is to contribute. Biggest play style change of day one is his reclusion (not a word but I like it)(actually it says the condition of being a recluse). Page one he has the majority of his posts with a brief interaction with Fanderay and Cast.

Page 1 is the non-Ghennan show. Look how eager he is to not show up and only post once on day. Biggest play style change of the first couple days is his emulsion (not a word but I like it). Day 1 he has almost no posts except a sudden vote with explanation. Day 2 he suddenly is a contributing member of town with lots of commentary and posts!


So Ultama is a spasming symp and by his very own scumdar logic Ghennan is the real killer!

IGMEOY Ghennan boy!

[Jalan]

On a more serious note (but ISGMEOY Ghennan!) going over Ultama's cases again, he's just putting whatever he can find together and it all seems to lack anything holding it together. Each case has different biases of what constitutes scummy behaviour than the one before.

I feel like if Ultama wanted he could make the same sort of cases on anyone in the game so far and they'd all be just as flimsy except for the MO case. The MO case is the only one with solid evidence of play that is bad for town and behaviour that is definitely not helpful.

Mostly it seems to me to just be an idiotic townie move, but Ultama seeming to deemphasize MO has my hackles raised. Something is wrong here and right now Ultama still feels super sympy so

Vote Monok Ochem


(Please don't be a fucking jester)

[Ghennan]

OK, kicking off by going back to day one.

This is Ultama's defence of his vote on Togg:

Ultama, on 22 October 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

You are quite funny Trake. This is a very low TDMi game, why would someone signal in a low TDMi game? No one is dumb enough to signal. Voting Togg for nothing better than to lynch a non active player. My reason is posted right underneath my vote. You don't like the reason? Go suck a dick. It's my reason and I don't see a better option or didn't at the time.

Ultama, on 22 October 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Find me the last successful signalling case. I'll be impressed.

Other than that, I don't like what you're smoking. You seem to be irrational, and a little crazy.

Making a defence based on discrediting the person making the case is a tactic I particularly dislike. It always strikes me as desperate, and generally says to me that you don't have anything better with which to argue against the case. Trake's points about the futility of voting Togg were valid, and Ultama's response is "you're crazy".

I know a few people have brought this up, but it never got a satisfactory response from Ultama. It also continues the vein of suggesting that people who are voting him are misguided, without actually defending his actions. Also, at this point, there were only two votes on him. Seems a little extreme under the circumstances.

Ultama, on 22 October 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Guys I really won't be around, i'm away as from now. Lynch me if you need to get a lynch, it's easy enough because I won't be around to defend myself, with Pallid's first vote and now Fanderay's a train is starting to be formed. If I am dead when I wake, I want you to know I have no ill feelings towards anyone in particular. With the low level of posts nothing has really stood out to me.

Goodnight.

So I included this post because it confused me that MO had voted for Ultama, but this post essentially says the same thing his first did; "I have no opinions, so I'm taking the easy route".

Monok Ochem, on 22 October 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

So what merit do Ultama and Trake see in lynching someone who will be modkilled shortly if theyre not modkilled they have some explaining to do tomorrow

I dont see a killer leaving their first post this late that strikes of raising too many questions

Low posting or hiding in a high posting style yes not no posting

Ultama looks like our only other choice at the moment

Vote Ultama

And then, almost exactly an hour later, he changes his vote to himself.

Monok Ochem, on 22 October 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Oh wow you totally convinced me

Yeah Im not having a brilliant week

Remove vote

Vote Monok Ochem

And I am out for the night now

This strikes me as potentially being premeditated. It's easy enough for scum who have off-thread comms to decide to vote for each other, and then remove, in order to create some distance between them.

This is the beginning of Ultama's summary of Monok:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Reading up on Monok I have them pegged as more likely town than Cast. I might find how I find this hard to put into words but I will give it a go.

It's about as non-commital as it gets, and pre-emptively offers him an excuse if people pick up on his reluctance to vote for Monok.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 21 October 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

[snip]

Do you not find that figuring it out yourself gets your brain fired up and in theme for the game? I do.

His first post strikes me as someone who is putting on his gloves for cold weather. For me, it represents his willingness to be part of the game. I think he is more active than we would know, that he is catching up often. What made me think this is his next couple of posts.

This is just... silly. Ultama makes so many assumptions about Monok's play, with no evidence to suggest any of it.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 22 October 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

So what do people think we have killer & symp is a good bet someone who has read the books can answer if William and Adso are potential killer and symp? Bernard arriving I'm at a loss to speculate as to what this may involve anyone had thoughts worth putting on thread? Mentioned as protagonist in the books but can't see them being a killer 3 days with no kills is excessive but 3 days to wrap up the game is to

Trake/Ultama are having fun tempted to put a vote on one of them because no one better in site so far

Day 1 signalling does happen but people try to be you know subtle about it what that really wasnt

Off for a bit now but will be back before night

This post also points to mechanics. It not only points to how scum are set up but it also speculates on the Bernard Gui guy. Now that he is dead and we know he was town, (he could have been a symp that turns into a killer day three or a town player that receives his finds/heals on day 3) but back when Monok posted this we weren't to know.

He mentions both Trake and I as potential scum and that is where he lays his vote. This is why i like him more than cast, he actually does vote and it was on a potential target that could have gotten lynched.

Again, Ultama is crediting Monok with a lot more than I think he deserves. He says that Monok speculates about the Gui mechanic, when all Monok really says is "I'm at a loss". Monok suggests that he could be either scum or town (wow, insightful!) and Ultama somehow interprets this as speculation about how scum is set up.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 22 October 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

So what merit do Ultama and Trake see in lynching someone who will be modkilled shortly if theyre not modkilled they have some explaining to do tomorrow

I dont see a killer leaving their first post this late that strikes of raising too many questions

Low posting or hiding in a high posting style yes not no posting

Ultama looks like our only other choice at the moment

Vote Ultama

So he is voting here to get a lynch, which is the primary goal of town. So this goes in his favor. I underlined the part which is one of the reasons I looked into Monok in the first place.

Monok Ochem, on 22 October 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Trake, on 22 October 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

However, there are several other things I don't like. The first is Fanderay - who claimed to be catching up hours ago (on a very short thread), and has promptly fucked off without comment, leaving a nice drive by vote in the process (a vote that Ultama points out is forming a train, and MO cites as leaving him the only real option, another thing I dislike but I'll get to that in my next post, since MO's play is something I dislike in general).

You have something better put it out there


4 hours left and 2 votes on 2 alts one of which is a likely modkill

Glad to see youre not sitting back though

He reprimands Trake for looking elsewhere, he is basically saying I am the best choice at this stage. I was and I agree with Monok.

Monok Ochem, on 22 October 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Oh wow you totally convinced me

Yeah Im not having a brilliant week

Remove vote

Vote Monok Ochem

And I am out for the night now

Then the self vote, it is more like a fuck you all for not actually reading up, and fuck you all for not getting a lynch or going for a lynch. I like Monok as town.

Again, more speculation about Monok's motives with not a lot to back them up. Ultama seems to be working pretty hard to suggest that Monok isn't scum.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I think I disagree with you on Monok, read my case on him. Unless I am wrong and you are right and I am not seeing it. Although, you did just pair me with Monok so maybe Monok and I are scum partners? What do you think about my post analysis and my Cast analysis? Anything in there? I am going to look at my other two suspects now.

This is in response to my first post of day two. The whole thing screams non-confrontational, trying not to make waves and to be friends. And then he tries to side-track me by pointing to Cast.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Ghennan, on 23 October 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Your case on Cast seems to hinge around the interaction between Cast and Jalan, but from the quotes you posted it seems like Cast has more interaction with Fanderay. Do you feel that Jalan is particularly scummy?

Also, you say that Cast's speculation on roles is scummy, but Monoch's speculation about mechanics isn't? Also, his questions about scum roles seems to me like trying to figure out what town knows about the scum players. Town has no knowledge about what is happening in terms of scum, so what is the point of the question?

I didn't connect you and Monok, btw, I just said that you both used tactics that irritate me.

You might be on to something with Grasp though. Don't you think it weird that he is trying so hard to be non-confrontational. It's the same problem I have with Monok. Why try so hard to be non-confrontational, unless you are trying to hide in plain sight and not make waves?

I just posted about Jalan, I find him less so, in fact Fanderay has more content filled posts than Jalan does, but I guess we'd find out more if Cast was lynched and came up scum.

I say Cast speculating on "town roles" is scummy. Not the d day part, and Monok specualting on mechanics is again not based on the town side of things but finding out how scum are distributed. He could manipulate his own findings into what he wants us to think ie he said one killer one symp, but personally I am going off the theory that there are paired killers.

Also it is Monok not Monoch. You wrote it wrong in one sentence and right in another. Not irritating enough to blow up at you but worth a mention.

I am unsure. I still like at least one of the 4 being scum and I am pointing towards Cast as that player.

More crediting of Monok with more analysis than we have actually seen from him. Monok made precisely no effort to consider how scum were distributed. He threw out a half-hearted question and left it at that. Besides, this statement ignores my point, which is that if scum know what town assume about the scum set up they can use that to spread misinformation and make themselves look less informed about scum set up than they are.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

First impression: Monok Ochem is turning the fairly valid middle-of-the-road accusation into a WIFOM-case by self-voting, at a time where he 'established' that someone else is the only option anyway. I'd say it's a gamble based on the fact that in the collective memory this ridiculous meltdown will survive, not the previous accusation - a meltdown that is then explainable.

Now to forge on. I'll be posting with pauses - still have work to do.

I am keen to hear more from this direction. Not just on Monok though.

Potentially illuminating.

[Ghennan]

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Well whilst you are here, why didn't you vote? Why did you not return to help town lynch? Where was your vote? At least he voted. I think Monok may be lynched today but I think he will CF town. I am not sure or positive, that is my opinion. yet a lot of people find him scummy, so he will have to be lynched. You sir should explain your absence before getting on your high horse.

This rings so many bells for me. It's so early in the game, how can you have any kind of strong feeling about this one way or another? It seems like a very thin attempt to shift the focus off Monok. And then the return of the personal attacks rather than any decent defence.

Monok Ochem, on 23 October 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

My explainations will be drunken and will be later tonight

Gist of it is that Ultama wasnt going to end up lynched anyway once Trake started his line against me so I thought I was preemtively voting myself as new best case before he got there when he beat me by seconds check the timestamps

I saw no need to worry if we didnt lynch it means someone else around for the killer to kill after all and maybe make a slip

Finally, this. Jesus, what a poor explanation. Essentially "Trake attacked me so I had a hissy fit and flounced off". And then he echoes Ultama's assertion that not lynching is good for town.

So I'm feeling pretty good about voting either of these two today. On the balance, I'm leaning towards them being paired killers, both of them do sympish things through the course of the game to back each other up.

[Ghennan]

Shit, now I'm running super late. Back later!

[Trake]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Day 1 he has almost no posts[...]Day 2 he suddenly is a contributing member of town with lots of commentary and posts!

Let's lynch everyone where this is the case.

And those who didn't contribute either day too.

[Jalan]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Day 1 he has almost no posts[...]Day 2 he suddenly is a contributing member of town with lots of commentary and posts!

Let's lynch everyone where this is the case.

And those who didn't contribute either day too.

Starting with Togg, I assume?

Seriously why the fuck did he even sign up for this?

[Trake]

Ghennan, on 23 October 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

So I'm feeling pretty good about voting either of these two today. On the balance, I'm leaning towards them being paired killers, both of them do sympish things through the course of the game to back each other up.

Yeah, Ultama's play seems like a partner wanting to establish some distance but without actually pushing on their partner, even defending him where possible. He lists him as a main suspect, but his case is probably the most positive appraisal of MO on the thread.

There are other odd things about Ultama in regards to MO, but I'm not sure they add up cohesively. For example, he mentions he thinks he'll CF town. It could be partner defence, but also looks like he's setting up the "told you so" in advance. I don't like this at the best of times, but when you've mentioned him as a main suspect, it just seems plain odd.

Almost like he's comedically caught between wanting to mention MO as a suspect to fit in, and wanting to get to look good by being right about an inno CF...but you'd think he can't be trying to do both, because they so obviously clash.

I find his play confusing.

I mean, at this stage we've got to assume he doesn't want a MO lynch right?

[Jalan]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

I mean, at this stage we've got to assume he doesn't want a MO lynch right?

Well he will tell you that he wants a Cast lynch or a Grasp lynch or a Jalan lynch or a MO lynch because those are his top suspects but he'd also be happy with a Trake lynch or a Togg lynch.

[Trake]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Day 1 he has almost no posts[...]Day 2 he suddenly is a contributing member of town with lots of commentary and posts!

Let's lynch everyone where this is the case.

And those who didn't contribute either day too.

Starting with Togg, I assume?

Seriously why the fuck did he even sign up for this?

He has no posts relating to the game after more than 50 hours. The only post he does have is purely to avoid being modkilled for not playing.

It is a very poor show.

I hope everything's OK with him IRL.

[Trake]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

I mean, at this stage we've got to assume he doesn't want a MO lynch right?

Well he will tell you that he wants a Cast lynch or a Grasp lynch or a Jalan lynch or a MO lynch because those are his top suspects but he'd also be happy with a Trake lynch or a Togg lynch.

He said he thinks MO will CF inno, so it makes no sense for him to want that lynch, regardless of if he says he's suspicious of him.

[Jalan]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

I mean, at this stage we've got to assume he doesn't want a MO lynch right?

Well he will tell you that he wants a Cast lynch or a Grasp lynch or a Jalan lynch or a MO lynch because those are his top suspects but he'd also be happy with a Trake lynch or a Togg lynch.

He said he thinks MO will CF inno, so it makes no sense for him to want that lynch, regardless of if he says he's suspicious of him.

I'd actually like to see Ultama answer this one.

@Ultama - would you vote for MO?

[Jalan]

For now though I need to head out for a while.

Should be back on later.

[Trake]

The other thing is, he volunteered his case on MO without pressure really. So, there's some suspect stuff in the case (why name him the suspect then come to such a kind conclusion?).

Fanderay then pushes him on his interpretation of MO, and particularly the self vote, and gets this response:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Well whilst you are here, why didn't you vote? Why did you not return to help town lynch? Where was your vote? At least he voted. I think Monok may be lynched today but I think he will CF town. I am not sure or positive, that is my opinion. yet a lot of people find him scummy, so he will have to be lynched. You sir should explain your absence before getting on your high horse.

Notable that he says he'll CF inno.

Now, if he does suspect him and thinks he'll CF inno, that makes him symp if suspicious.

A few posts later he re-emphasises his suspects:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

I posted my top 4 suspects. Cast/Monok and Grasp/Jalan. I then did a catch up on their posts.

And then in his next interaction with Fanderay, about 15 minutes later, we get this:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

So when I come back town, you lynch him and we are two down yeah? Fuck sake. Your a dumb ass. Okay let's roll with that. I had a vote from Pallid and you, Monok follows that vote. That is three votes on me. What does Trake do? Trake votes for Monok!!! Which then Monok responds with a self vote. What??

It fuicking blows your mind. Trake should have voted for me and that would have put me on 4 votes, after that it's easy for anyone to vote, Grasp ended up voting, so that is 5, we may have got to a lynch. Out of Monok and Trake I would put Trake as a symp in comparison. Monok didn't have enough posts to be a symp and would he have removed if Trake didn't vote him??

Underline mine.

So, he lists MO as one of his top suspects. He doesn't list me. He says he thinks MO will CF inno. But he says I'm more likely symp than MO is.

His attitude towards MO has been totally contradictory.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 18 hours and 39 minutes remaining.


11 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Grasp, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Monok Ochem, Togg, Trake, Ultama

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

1 vote Monok Ochem: Trake
1 vote Ultama: Fanderay


Players not voted: Cast, Ghennan, Grasp, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Monok Ochem, Togg, Ultama