[Trake]

Monok Ochem, on 23 October 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

My explainations will be drunken and will be later tonight

Gist of it is that Ultama wasnt going to end up lynched anyway once Trake started his line against me so I thought I was preemtively voting myself as new best case before he got there when he beat me by seconds check the timestamps

I saw no need to worry if we didnt lynch it means someone else around for the killer to kill after all and maybe make a slip

Thoroughly unconvinced by this explanation, even if it's just the gist of it. If Ultama was unlikely to be lynched, he saw himself as more likely? That just doesn't make sense, numerically. Especially if he wasn't aware of my vote.

As per usual, lynch is better than no lynch. I don't see why this comes up so often, the times when it isn't the case are very rare, and are likely to have been discussed well in advance.

[Fanderay]

Monok Ochem, on 23 October 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

My explainations will be drunken and will be later tonight

Gist of it is that Ultama wasnt going to end up lynched anyway once Trake started his line against me so I thought I was preemtively voting myself as new best case before he got there when he beat me by seconds check the timestamps

I saw no need to worry if we didnt lynch it means someone else around for the killer to kill after all and maybe make a slip

so, you are saying you thought that people were going to swing from Ultama onto you (4:1 before your self- vote), just because Trake said so? (we had how many hours left??????????) and you thought that voting yourself would help with that?

I...... I just...


wow,

seriously, i'm going to give your mental faculties the benefit of a doubt and assume you are in fact scum trying to pass off as a brain-dead town. If I had a vig kill, I would kill you.

[Jalan]

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

[Jalan]

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

(we had how many hours left??????????)

At that point, looks like 3.

[Jalan]

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

If I had a vig kill, I would kill you.

Calling for a vig?

Didn't we establish at some poitn a long time ago that that is a terrible thing to do as town?

[Fanderay]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

If I had a vig kill, I would kill you.

Calling for a vig?

Didn't we establish at some poitn a long time ago that that is a terrible thing to do as town?

I'm not telling a vig (if there is one) to reveal himself or anyhitng like that.

we've established that vigs shooting their load early is stupid. this isn't necessarily such a case. MO's behaviour muddled up the game, (whether unwittingly or not remains to be seen), and I don't want to waste a lynch clearing it up. A vig would be a productive thing here, not that i'm asking anyone to vig him.

that was more of an expression of my frustration than anyhting, as should be obvious from that one, as well as the preceeding, smileys,

anyhow, lunch is over, back to work...

[Trake]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

I was going to be there for a while to switch if needed, and Monoks play bothered me, so I decided to vote him. I didn't expect my vote to hurt the Ultama train, it would've been 4:1:1 instead of 5:1, and I'd made it clear that I was around and happy to vote Ultama.

Edit: formatting, and missed a word

This post has been edited by Trake: 23 October 2013 - 04:32 PM

[Trake]

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.

This is technically true, but misrepresents the context.

My vote on Togg wasn't following Ultama's, so much as being prompted by seeing Ultama's vote as scummy (hence why I then go for Ultama - hardly a 180).

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

If I had a vig kill, I would kill you.

Calling for a vig?

Didn't we establish at some poitn a long time ago that that is a terrible thing to do as town?

I'm not telling a vig (if there is one) to reveal himself or anyhitng like that.

we've established that vigs shooting their load early is stupid. this isn't necessarily such a case. MO's behaviour muddled up the game, (whether unwittingly or not remains to be seen), and I don't want to waste a lynch clearing it up. A vig would be a productive thing here, not that i'm asking anyone to vig him.

that was more of an expression of my frustration than anyhting, as should be obvious from that one, as well as the preceeding, smileys,

anyhow, lunch is over, back to work...

This post seems more to be encouraging a vig than anything else, regardless of disclaimers...

You saw we've established early load shooting is stupid. Do you think that in the games where this was established there weren't people who seemed scummy, or were confusing the thread, etc etc.

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

If I had a vig kill, I would kill you.

Calling for a vig?

Didn't we establish at some poitn a long time ago that that is a terrible thing to do as town?

I'm not telling a vig (if there is one) to reveal himself or anyhitng like that.

we've established that vigs shooting their load early is stupid. this isn't necessarily such a case. MO's behaviour muddled up the game, (whether unwittingly or not remains to be seen), and I don't want to waste a lynch clearing it up. A vig would be a productive thing here, not that i'm asking anyone to vig him.

that was more of an expression of my frustration than anyhting, as should be obvious from that one, as well as the preceeding, smileys,

anyhow, lunch is over, back to work...

This post seems more to be encouraging a vig than anything else, regardless of disclaimers...

You saw we've established early load shooting is stupid. Do you think that in the games where this was established there weren't people who seemed scummy, or were confusing the thread, etc etc.

matter of fact I do. Don't have time to delve into history now, but most of the time it were random vig kills with no explanation or thought process either on thread or in spoilers post-game.

but I don't want to get sidetracked. I don't really get what you are trying to say about Ultama.

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.

This is technically true, but misrepresents the context.

My vote on Togg wasn't following Ultama's, so much as being prompted by seeing Ultama's vote as scummy (hence why I then go for Ultama - hardly a 180).

do you mean MO instead of Ultama? I don't remember you ever voting Ultama yesterday.

[Jalan]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

I was going to be there for a while to switch if needed, and Monoks play bothered me, so I decided to vote him. I didn't expect my vote to hurt the Ultama train, it would've been 4:1:1 instead of 5:1, and I'd made it clear that I was around and happy to vote Ultama.

Edit: formatting, and missed a word

Can you go deeper? I want to understand your thought process that lead to actually deciding to switch your vote to MO.

Yeah you were going to be around to change it again later, but still switching votes off a train onto someone even if its just for pressure is very noticeable and not something I get the feels you'd have done at some of your other angry times.

Not saying it was necessarily a bad move just trying to get into your PoV more.

[Trake]

Reading up on Ultama's cases. Generally they didn't seem particularly great to me, some of the things he mentions are pretty vague/applicable to other people.

Things I'd agree with:

Jalan seems coasting/trying to look like he's contributing without doing so at times.
Grasp has a couple of odd moments (why bother voting with such short time - if you're putting pressure on you'd wait, just looks like he wants to be down on the vote count). He does seem a bit non-confrontational, but not artificially so.
Cast coasts, and his big post doesn't provide as much content as it seems (not sure if it was Ultama that called it "cookie-cutter", but that resonated with me). I thought Ultama's accusation of role fishing was interesting.

What also really stood out was his attitude towards MO. I mean, he felt a little half-hearted about his other cases at times, but it's not really comparable to his depiction of MO. He mentions that he has these 4 suspects. And he later tells Fanderay:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I have selected my top 4 for scum, I am convinced one is a killer.

But read what he actually says about MO.

His case starts with this:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Reading up on Monok I have them pegged as more likely town than Cast.

And concludes with this:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

I like Monok as town.

Most of his discussion of MO reads more like a defence than an attack. And then we have posts like these:

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

It fuicking blows your mind. Trake should have voted for me and that would have put me on 4 votes, after that it's easy for anyone to vote, Grasp ended up voting, so that is 5, we may have got to a lynch. Out of Monok and Trake I would put Trake as a symp in comparison. Monok didn't have enough posts to be a symp and would he have removed if Trake didn't vote him??

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

First impression: Monok Ochem is turning the fairly valid middle-of-the-road accusation into a WIFOM-case by self-voting, at a time where he 'established' that someone else is the only option anyway. I'd say it's a gamble based on the fact that in the collective memory this ridiculous meltdown will survive, not the previous accusation - a meltdown that is then explainable.

Now to forge on. I'll be posting with pauses - still have work to do.

I am keen to hear more from this direction. Not just on Monok though.

Ultama, on 23 October 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I can see what people are saying about Monok being a killer but I don't think symp has crossed their minds.

As a side note, are you really blaming me for Monok's removal? Like it's some sort of scummy tactic I've got going to try and break up a train by getting someone to self vote, by voting them?

4 suspects is also a pretty decent pool.

Fanderay connects Ultama and MO, and this probably draws more negative comments on MO from Ultama than are actually in his own case.

It seems worth considering to me. They could be connected, could be Ultama was just throwing MO in as a suspect because he's getting mentioned a lot, but something seems a bit odd.

[Fanderay]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

I was going to be there for a while to switch if needed, and Monoks play bothered me, so I decided to vote him. I didn't expect my vote to hurt the Ultama train, it would've been 4:1:1 instead of 5:1, and I'd made it clear that I was around and happy to vote Ultama.

Edit: formatting, and missed a word

Can you go deeper? I want to understand your thought process that lead to actually deciding to switch your vote to MO.

Yeah you were going to be around to change it again later, but still switching votes off a train onto someone even if its just for pressure is very noticeable and not something I get the feels you'd have done at some of your other angry times.

Not saying it was necessarily a bad move just trying to get into your PoV more.

ffs. he switched from TOGG to MO. he wasn't on the Ultama train.

god, people. , reading comprehension.

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.

This is technically true, but misrepresents the context.

My vote on Togg wasn't following Ultama's, so much as being prompted by seeing Ultama's vote as scummy (hence why I then go for Ultama - hardly a 180).

do you mean MO instead of Ultama? I don't remember you ever voting Ultama yesterday.

I didn't vote Ultama. I thought he was referring to me voting Togg (who Ultama had voted), and then attacking Ultama, something that was similarly called "erratic" yesterday (by Ultama I think).

If he's talking about my MO vote, then I also can't see what he means by 180, given I'd mentioned MO being very middle of the road earlier, and has also made it clear I was around to vote Ultama.

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.

This is technically true, but misrepresents the context.

My vote on Togg wasn't following Ultama's, so much as being prompted by seeing Ultama's vote as scummy (hence why I then go for Ultama - hardly a 180).

do you mean MO instead of Ultama? I don't remember you ever voting Ultama yesterday.

I didn't vote Ultama. I thought he was referring to me voting Togg (who Ultama had voted), and then attacking Ultama, something that was similarly called "erratic" yesterday (by Ultama I think).

If he's talking about my MO vote, then I also can't see what he means by 180, given I'd mentioned MO being very middle of the road earlier, and has also made it clear I was around to vote Ultama.

The underlined part. I don't understand.

Also, if you thought Ultama's vote on Togg was scummy, why follow him?

you guys are just confusing the hell out of me!

[Trake]

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

I was going to be there for a while to switch if needed, and Monoks play bothered me, so I decided to vote him. I didn't expect my vote to hurt the Ultama train, it would've been 4:1:1 instead of 5:1, and I'd made it clear that I was around and happy to vote Ultama.

Edit: formatting, and missed a word

Can you go deeper? I want to understand your thought process that lead to actually deciding to switch your vote to MO.

Yeah you were going to be around to change it again later, but still switching votes off a train onto someone even if its just for pressure is very noticeable and not something I get the feels you'd have done at some of your other angry times.

Not saying it was necessarily a bad move just trying to get into your PoV more.

The train I switched off was sitting with 2 votes and had been for some time. It was either switch to Ultama (who was on 4 votes), or put some pressure on someone else. I'd mentioned I didn't like MO being middle of the road earlier on, but no one had really picked it up to discuss it, so I felt I needed to do something a bit more substantial on it, and saw no real need for me to switch to Ultama instead.

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hanas, on 23 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The little interesting thing here is that first Trake votes along, then, in 3 posts, makes a 180, and creates the option for a train.

This is technically true, but misrepresents the context.

My vote on Togg wasn't following Ultama's, so much as being prompted by seeing Ultama's vote as scummy (hence why I then go for Ultama - hardly a 180).

do you mean MO instead of Ultama? I don't remember you ever voting Ultama yesterday.

I didn't vote Ultama. I thought he was referring to me voting Togg (who Ultama had voted), and then attacking Ultama, something that was similarly called "erratic" yesterday (by Ultama I think).

If he's talking about my MO vote, then I also can't see what he means by 180, given I'd mentioned MO being very middle of the road earlier, and has also made it clear I was around to vote Ultama.

The underlined part. I don't understand.

Also, if you thought Ultama's vote on Togg was scummy, why follow him?

you guys are just confusing the hell out of me!

I thought Ultama's vote for Togg was scummy.
I followed him onto Togg because I thought it could be scummy in the sense of a signal, and voting the person who is the symp in that scenario doesn't make sense.
I then put pressure on Ultama for scummy behaviour (and also for the possibility of the vote being scummy in a non symp way - i.e, faking participation, but not wanting to be the first vote etc).

This game seems a bit low on the reading comprehension front.

[Jalan]

Fanderay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Jalan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I can dig the explanation about Trake's vote switch, but OTOH it is coming from Hanas and Fanderay.

Trake if you don't mind can you discuss your vote on Monok? I'd like to hear how you saw the situation.

I was going to be there for a while to switch if needed, and Monoks play bothered me, so I decided to vote him. I didn't expect my vote to hurt the Ultama train, it would've been 4:1:1 instead of 5:1, and I'd made it clear that I was around and happy to vote Ultama.

Edit: formatting, and missed a word

Can you go deeper? I want to understand your thought process that lead to actually deciding to switch your vote to MO.

Yeah you were going to be around to change it again later, but still switching votes off a train onto someone even if its just for pressure is very noticeable and not something I get the feels you'd have done at some of your other angry times.

Not saying it was necessarily a bad move just trying to get into your PoV more.

ffs. he switched from TOGG to MO. he wasn't on the Ultama train.

god, people. , reading comprehension.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Huh

It's just so easy to go back to the top of page 3 and assume the rest. Sorry about that ol' chap!

[Jalan]

Trake, on 23 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

This game seems a bit low on the reading comprehension front.

Maybe running two games at the same time wasn't the greatest idea...