[Tiste Simeon]

Hang on. HANG ON. Hang the flipping heck on. Varandas makes dolls. They come alive (it seems) and wait a minute he has just admitted to creating the Nacht. AND SOMETHING CALLED BOLEAD! Are the Bole brothers some kind of insane Jaghut creation?? MIND BLOWN!

In other news am I right in asduming that these apparently benign over powered beings called the Azathanai become the Elder Gods? Its been years since I read the series but I recognise most of the names - was Grizzin Farl the dude in the Bonehunter army who only really appears in DOD & TCG? Cos... Thats way cool.

Anyways nearly finished and I am freaking out, this book is so great! Will be rereading The Main Series after this.

[worry]

You hit the nail on the head with the Boles. Olar Ethil hints at this origin in TCG though.

Grizzin Farl is the Elder God who is dead, according to the Errant and all other scant evidence we get. Ruthan Gudd is the chap you're thinking of (he appears before DOD but that's where his role definitely gets ramped up).

[Tiste Simeon]

Ah. That was the guy I was thinking of, cheers.
Haven't reached the Lord of Hate, I reckon it is Gothos. I have to keep reminding myself the 2 more books are yet to come, so who knows, we may not get there in this book!?
This book also confirms to me what a doucheweed Errastas/the Errant is. Finally, timeline: Errastas mentions to Sechul that they are going to go across the seas to the King. Presumably Kallor, but prologue of MOI has K'rul & co (Hish Tulla as Cold Nights lady??) are already Gods at that point? How long does Kallors empire last for I wonder?

[Aptorian]

I think it was already in Toll The Hounds that we hear that there is a connection between Jaghut and the Bole lineage, when they come in contact with that Jaghut on the island.

When you mention Grizzin Farl in DOD and TCG you are thinking of the crazy theory connected to Ruthan Gudd. We don't actually know "who" Ruthan Gudd is, we just know that he must have been alive to meet Draconus before he got dragnipured. For some reason people want him to be Grizzin Farl because he's the only named Elder God that we had yet to meet in the main series.

Grizzin Farl, as far as I recall, is only ever mentioned once in the whole series in passing during BH when QB, Kalam and co stumble upon a ruin of a temple dedicated to him in the Imperial Warren.

[worry]

The Errant mentions GF in the Elder God get-together in DoD too, but I think that's it.

Whether or not Kallor is the King mentioned above, I think it's fair to say Kallor has had more than one empire anyway.

[Braven's barber]

doucheweed

THAT'S the word I was looking for

[Tiste Simeon]

Thanks guys like I said its been a looooong time since I read either SE's or ICE's novels so I can't remember all these references. Love the introduction of Grief, and Andarists manner in (I think) House of Chains (or was it Bonehunters? Darn it I truly can't remember!) is explained here. Wonder when Dragnipur appears?
Finally, Scara Bandaris = Bloodeye?

[Siergiej]

Yup

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Re: Dragnipur. I think its iinteresting and may have to be explained away somehow, maybe, but in the MoI prologue when Kallor curses Draconus, he talks about "what you create shall be turned on you" and the afterwards, Draconus tells K'rul that forging is almost complete. According to the intro to this section of the chapter, this takes place three years after the fall of the Crippled God. So I'm not sure if we will see the whole thing, but Draconus also mentions that he's been forging the sword since "the time of All Darkness", and "The forging has taken ... a long time, but I am now nearing completion."

This is also said to take place some 119,736 years BEFORE Burns Sleep, but we know for a fact in FoD that (spoilered in case Tiste Simeon hasn't got there yet):

Spoiler

Burn is already sleeping. And dreaming.

Also, not too sure if Nightchill is Hish Tulla, mostly because of the MoI prologue, but also elsewhere, which strongly implies that Nighchill is an Elder God.

Warning: Reckoning FoD with the MBotF can sometimes cause seizures. Consult your physician.

[Tiste Simeon]

I guess the series is too huge to get all the details exactly right (yes I have reached Burn!)

Where have I heard the name Sheltatha Lore before? She just appeared & I can't remember where she is from!

Really hating Urusanders Legion at the moment... Really loved the scenes with Hood & Gothos! Draconus' line "I will forge a sword & make of it a prison..." gave me chills! Looking forward to seeing who Arathan really is too.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

She was first mentioned in Midnight Tides as one of the "three sisters", she was Daughter Dusk (Menandore was Dawn, the Betrayer; Sukul Ankhadu was Dapple, The Fickle), . She plays a bigger role in Reapers Gale until Quick Ben and Hedge murder her real nice in her draconic form. She was the one buried in the Azath grounds that Silchas Ruin beats down.

[NefaraisBredd]

I submit that not Azathanai became gods. Draconus was many things, a god, an elemental force, a Tiste, etc. The 'old man' seemed to be an elemental force as well. This whole enterprise (Malazan Book of the Fallen, et al) reeks of Greek mythology. In Greek mythology, we find.many gods & elemental forces of all descriptions & varying levels of importance/power. Dassem reminds me of a Fury and a Hero wrapped into one. Kellanved reminds me of Prometheus-tricking the gods and giving humanity knowledge, autonomy, etc. Draconus is reminiscent of Pontus and MD Gaia (Themis). Osserc is Zeus, Anomander is Chronos(Kronos?)-he did kinda cut his step-fathers' balls off. I have also noticed that many gods, etc in MBoF are amalgamations of many mythological entities. I E: Karsa is totally Gilgamesh, Heracles, and Bellerophon all-in-one terrifyingly admirable character that represents wildness vs civilization and the more.noble aspects of mythological Heros.

Grizzn Farl cannot possibly be dead and he prolly ain't Ruthan Gudd. He cannot be dead because he is the God of lost causes-the protector of silence, grief, etc. There's plenty o that to go around. Methinks he is still around.in one form or another. Draconus admits that Azathanai can die but also says that he has died many deaths.......there are plenty of Ruthan G theories and I think Arathan is out of the running because he and Draconus would have had something to say to each other. Then again, he is a good candidate as he can change form like his father. Arathan was last seen with Gothos,; he was already kinda apathetic and indifferent towards bloodshed yet masterfully skilled. Kinda like 'ole Ruthan there. Annnd...Ruthans' little gift from.the stormriders could be a convenient cover-story for his use of omtose phellack (jaghut warren), which would be a natural assumption considering Arathan was Gothos' scribe.


Jaghut constructs/golems (Boles, Nachts,etc) were a nice touch. It fits with the character of the Boles; they are insane and incredibly tough. Nachts similarily impressed me. Crump kills me every time, lol (pardon the pun).

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 26 October 2013 - 06:48 AM

[Felisin Fatter]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 04 October 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Re: Dragnipur. I think its iinteresting and may have to be explained away somehow, maybe, but in the MoI prologue when Kallor curses Draconus, he talks about "what you create shall be turned on you" and the afterwards, Draconus tells K'rul that forging is almost complete. According to the intro to this section of the chapter, this takes place three years after the fall of the Crippled God. So I'm not sure if we will see the whole thing, but Draconus also mentions that he's been forging the sword since "the time of All Darkness", and "The forging has taken ... a long time, but I am now nearing completion."

This is also said to take place some 119,736 years BEFORE Burns Sleep, but we know for a fact in FoD that (spoilered in case Tiste Simeon hasn't got there yet):

Spoiler

Burn is already sleeping. And dreaming.

Also, not too sure if Nightchill is Hish Tulla, mostly because of the MoI prologue, but also elsewhere, which strongly implies that Nighchill is an Elder God.

Warning: Reckoning FoD with the MBotF can sometimes cause seizures. Consult your physician.

Ok, seizure time: Could it be possible that (spoilers for FoD)

Spoiler

That scene with Kallor and Draconus takes place 119000 years before the events in FoD?? After all, Steve's often cute with things like 'first empire (which first empire... the second one or the third?), Burn's sleep seems to be a repeated event too. Or do we have more evidence about when exactly the CG arrived? Events would be like this:
- All Darkness. Forever ago. Draconus (under different name) + other Azathanai are 'born'.
- Draconus starts forging a sword for some reason.
- Some races are created. Tiste, Jaghut, Forkrul, Imass, who knows what else.
- Kallor conquers a continent. He's a tyrant and some wizards summon a God to kill him. This doesn't quite work out as planned.
- Kallor in his rage blows up everything. No really. Everything. Except for himself and his throne. (Apparantly this takes three years.)
- This goes too far for Drac and his buddies, so they curse him (stupid response, considering the consequences...)
- 120.000 years or so pass, Burn falls asleep. (Maybe because of the destructive Tiste civilization?) Kallor now hates Azathanai. He keeps building empires that fall to dust, because he never learns. He also marries a Tiste (Liosan) woman around this time (might happen in kharkanas books). That ends badly, which makes sense if he's already cursed at this point.
- Kharkanas Trilogy events happen. Draconus at some point puts the gate into darkness in his now finished (fimnally...) sword.

[Aptorian]

Forge of Darkness takes place at last 180,000 years before the events of the MoI prologue not the other way around.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Its said that the Hammer that Brood carries "wakes" Burn, so perhaps the breaking of the FoD world - and possibly the sundering of Shadow - happens because Brood wields his hammer and wakes Burn, then Burn eventually goes back to sleep (i.e. the world settles down) and its this "sleep" that the calendar is employing in the MoI prologue. There's multiple chainings, multiple First Empires, and perhaps multiple resting periods of Burn.

[worry]

I could definitely be wrong, but right now I'm leaning towards not taking "Burn's Sleep" so literally when it comes to the calendar. I'd be happy to be proved wrong as we progress, but I just don't think Burn fell asleep again literally 1150 years ago. It's a bit of poetic license.

[Aptorian]

Maybe she went from peaceful sleep to a fever dream state or a coma. Burns sleep really signifies a chaining as far as I understand. Maybe this was when things started to get really bad.

[Felisin Fatter]

Crustaceous Apt, on 05 November 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Forge of Darkness takes place at last 180,000 years before the events of the MoI prologue not the other way around.

Based on what information? Just the 'x years before Burn's sleep' dating, or something else? Since I argue that there are multiple 'burn falls asleep' events, so SE can play tricks with this dating. Just like the 'first son of darkness' and 'time of all darkness' and such - which I used to interpret as meaning 'very old / dawn of time', iow a chronological 'first'. But FoD clearly changed that interpretation!
Also during FoD the Tiste already have a long history and there's already a 'high king' who dislikes Azathanai, so it's at least possible things happened 120.000 years before that. But if there's other things in the text to date one thing before or after another thing, I'd like to be pointed at them. It's just a hypothesis after all.

[Aptorian]

In terms of timelines ALL we have to go by is the authors word. You have to assume that some kind of chronological order is in place and despite arguing that there may be some historical liberties taken in the writing of the fictional Book of the Fallen, the dates are mentioned in chapter openings usually fit. Burns Sleep is like saying "BC" Before Christ in our modern age. Whether or not Jesus Christ actually was born or even existed is not important, just like whether or not Burn is sleeping isn't either. It's just a way to measure time passed.

GotM takes place some where around 1150 years after Burns sleep (can't remember the exact date) that is mentioned in a chapter opening. In the opening of the prologue of MoI we get another time stamp. I can't recall that one specifically either but the Kallorian Empire existed along side the 7C's First Human Empire so it's around 120-130,000 years BEFORE Burns sleep. We also know that the year in which MoI takes place is the 300,000th year anniversarry of the T'lan Imass ritual. As of FOD the Imass as a people don't even exist yet. They are probably a later generation of the dog runners but we can't be sure. For all we know the Dog runners were the Eres'al, it would make sense given the dream memories of monkey people running with the Deragoth in HoC. (EDIT: Come to think of it it's more likely it is the Imass and beast god connection the dog runners are referring to) The Jaghut have not become tyrants. The Warrens don't exist yet so the Imass cannot steal fire and do their ritual. Etc. There's a lot of historical events that need to be linked chronologically for things to make sense but it what would not make sense would be for the human empire of Kallor to have existed before the Imass... all though it would make sense in context with kallors boast of having been around when the Imass were children. And it explains why there even is a High King during the Elder Times.

Basically to understand what the hell is up with the High King/Kallor business we need the next two books in the series to get an insight. Could just be that Kallor inherited a title. Like the Sister of Cold Nights.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 06 November 2013 - 11:48 AM

[Avernite]

I personally theorize there were 3 or 4 'first' people, in different places.

The Dragons rose in one place (be it the Vitr, Starvald Demelain, or somewhere else), the Eres'al in another, and the KÇhain in a third.

My personal theory is the first glimmers of Eres'al worship created the Azathanai. They had fairly simple religion at that point, so in worshipping Night they never assigned it a face - and so Draconus could choose whatever form he liked (and likewise, they probably worshipped the sea, not the god of the sea). However, these Azathanai were then sentient, and started fiddling with the basic Eres'al body plan to create Jaghut, Tiste, FA, Thel Akai, etcetera because why not. This expains how all those species can interbreed (they're basically all Eres'al descendants, just differently modified).

It's possible the Imass and humans were also fiddled with, it's possible they were normal evolution at work, and it's even possible the Tiste or Thel Akai or... were not modified while humans/Imass are.

At some point, presumably described in this trilogy, this Eres-derived society falls apart. Dragons may invade it, the sentients may all run off somewhere else, the K'Chain might invade (or be in the place they all flee to)...