[Spoilsport Stonny]

I essentially agree with Apt here. There is a concrete reference point of calendar time of the contemporary Malazan Empire, and that is the "BC" that is Burn's Sleep. Of course we always have to remember that the timeline doesn't matter, and in this case its obfuscating a few minor details. MoI specifically says:

Quote

Continents of Korelri and Jacuruku, in the Time of Dying 119,736 years before Burn’s Sleep (three years after the Fall of the Crippled God)

The extra bit at the end tells us that this occurred after the fall of The Crippled God, so lets put the timeline of Kallor's curses to bed.

Also a minor correction to Apt's details:

Olar Ethil tells Draconus that there are Jaghut among the Imass (Dog-runners):

Quote

‘There are Jaghut among the Dog-Runners.’
He looked at her. ‘What?’
‘Those who rejected the Lord of Hate. They amuse themselves ordering and reordering what does not belong to them. They make fists and call them gods. Spirits of water, air and earth flee before them. Burn dreams of war. Vengeance.’
‘Must it all crumble, Olar Ethil? All that we have made here?’
She waved a dismissive hand. ‘I will answer with fire. They are my children, after all.’
‘Making you no different from those Jaghut, or will you now claim Burn as your child, too?’
Scowling, Olar Ethil set her hands upon her distended belly. ‘They don’t feed her.’

I especially love the "I will answer with fire." part.

I don't see any reason why a human empire cannot exist at the time of FoD, especially if it's under the High King, whether that's Kallor or not, which I think it is. I posed a theory about Kallor's empire being akin to Tolkien's Edain and Kallor similar to Beor, which would be very interesting considering Beor fled Eriador for Ossiriand. Also interesting would be the difference between Edain (humans) and Elves (Tiste), that being mortality, but then again that could also apply to the Imass. I certainly don't think SE would be mirroring Tolkien, but if yr gonna flip the script, you gotta start somewhere.

[Aptorian]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Olar Ethil tells Draconus that there are Jaghut among the Imass (Dog-runners):

Either I missed it on my first read or it must have slipped my mind but this is pretty significant. This means that for all we know, on the other side of the world, the Imass could have created an empire already? And Olar Ethil may already have given them fire. Well, in fact if the Dogrunners are the Imass, then she definitely already has.

This could also mean that the Jaghut/Imass War could be some what more grey than we thought. Like it has already been mentioned before there was some suggestion that the Imass/Jaghut war was unnecessary because there were few of them and only a few of those were Tyrants.

What if the Tyrant wars were in fact just political? What if when the wars started it was Imass seeing an oppertunity to make a killing blow against an ancient enemy that had just been utterly crushed both in terms of numbers and morally? What if they chose the aftermath of the Jaghut war on Death to start a new one?

Awh man if this crazy theory is true I will be so pleased.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Crustaceous Apt, on 06 November 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Olar Ethil tells Draconus that there are Jaghut among the Imass (Dog-runners):

Either I missed it on my first read or it must have slipped my mind but this is pretty significant. This means that for all we know, on the other side of the world, the Imass could have created an empire already? And Olar Ethil may already have given them fire. Well, in fact if the Dogrunners are the Imass, then she definitely already has.

That section where Draconus and Olar Ethil have their conversation is incredibly awesome. That whole sequence of events from the groups arrival into that town and up until Draconus dismisses the Borderswords and goes the rest of the way with Arathan is probably in my top 3 of anything SE has written.

Crustaceous Apt, on 06 November 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

This could also mean that the Jaghut/Imass War could be some what more grey than we thought. Like it has already been mentioned before there was some suggestion that the Imass/Jaghut war was unnecessary because there were few of them and only a few of those were Tyrants.

What if the Tyrant wars were in fact just political? What if when the wars started it was Imass seeing an oppertunity to make a killing blow against an ancient enemy that had just been utterly crushed both in terms of numbers and morally? What if they chose the aftermath of the Jaghut war on Death to start a new one?

Awh man if this crazy theory is true I will be so pleased.

I think this borders on the verge of the themes of justice and vengence. Unless the Jaghut tyrants were actually not as ruthless as we were led to believe (though Raest seems like quite the tyrant when released from his barrow) or their despotic deeds were much more limited than hinted at, then its hard to say which group was more in the wrong. I do think that the anger the Imass displayed towards the Jaghut was ruthless, with the killing of Jaghut children etc., but they certainly got more than they bargained for, most likely thanks to Olar Ethi, though her insanity seems to inspireed by their worship of her, so now my brain has exploded.

[Aptorian]

Exactly, what if Olar Ethil so to say "fuelled the fire" and incited them into going to war and subsequently convinced the that undergoing the ritual was the only option?

We hear Draconus show outrage at Olar Ethil when he hears what has become of the Imass.

Allthough admittedly, that was a bit weird considering by the time he got dragnipured 200,000 years had passed since the ritual.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I think it was more outrage that she still hadn't released them from the ritual, although 200K+ years of T'lan-iness should have been enough to inspire his rage. But yeah, her inciting the Imass definitely makes sense.

[Aptorian]

Ah, right. That coupled with her obviously trying to take control of them via Tool.

Still, knowing Erikson, I would not be surprised if there might be revealed some ugly truths surrounding the war between the Imass and the Jaghut.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Crustaceous Apt, on 06 November 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Olar Ethil tells Draconus that there are Jaghut among the Imass (Dog-runners):

Either I missed it on my first read or it must have slipped my mind but this is pretty significant. This means that for all we know, on the other side of the world, the Imass could have created an empire already? And Olar Ethil may already have given them fire. Well, in fact if the Dogrunners are the Imass, then she definitely already has.

This could also mean that the Jaghut/Imass War could be some what more grey than we thought. Like it has already been mentioned before there was some suggestion that the Imass/Jaghut war was unnecessary because there were few of them and only a few of those were Tyrants.

What if the Tyrant wars were in fact just political? What if when the wars started it was Imass seeing an oppertunity to make a killing blow against an ancient enemy that had just been utterly crushed both in terms of numbers and morally? What if they chose the aftermath of the Jaghut war on Death to start a new one?

Awh man if this crazy theory is true I will be so pleased.

given what we know of olar ethil's nature it isn't inconceivable that she may have pushed the Imass to war. At their very core (the part of RG where Onrack becomes mortal) it is emphasised quite often how peaceful the Imass were. How innocent and unguarded the imass are. (don't ask for where specifically)

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 06 November 2013 - 09:40 PM

[Aptorian]

BalrogLord, on 06 November 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

given what we know of olar ethil's nature it isn't inconceivable that she may have pushed the Imass to war. At their very core (the part of RG where Onrack becomes mortal) it is emphasised quite often how peaceful the Imass were. How innocent and unguarded the imass are. (don't ask for where specifically)

And also how, when their anger is raised it's a terrible thing.

The peculiar thing though is that if the Dogrunners really are of the same race as the Imass, they seem a lot different. The Dogrunners that meet with the Jaghut, while an honorable and hospitable lot, were also warlike in nature. They seemed pretty territorial and obviously had some long running grudges with the Andii. Of course that might have more to do with their animal nature though.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yr confusing the Jheleck with the Dog-runners.

[Malaclypse]

all Steve is trying to say there , in my opinion, is that Imass are passionate people - they love and hate with passion - they react to challenges with passion. So yes, I agree that Olar Ethil could have and would have incited them to war or whatever she wanted, with the wealth of experience she had - she thought it was the best way to save them. That is totally Steve.

[DaddyDraconus]

Spoilsport Stonny' sayz:This is also said to take place some 119,736 years BEFORE Burns Sleep, but we know for a fact in FoD that (spoilered in case Tiste Simeon hasn't got there yet):

Spoiler

Burn is already sleeping. And dreaming.

But in FOD burn is found in KG which is not the same world as Wu, so maybe her sleep is different in different realms. Also I do not believe there has been mention that burn has never woken up, just that doing so during the events of MBotF would be cataclysmic. For all we know the first falling of CG could have woke her from the jostling lol!

This post has been edited by DaddyDraconus: 04 October 2014 - 02:18 PM

[Stralin]

Well I've got some crazy theory here.

There are like two separate worlds, Wu and KG. At Wu the Eres'al start appearing while the Jaghut and later the Azathanai appear in KG.

At first there were Jaghut and not Azathanai, since Gothos tells us they warred against death itself, and by the FoD happens there are few Jaghut left. Can't war against death with that little bunch. Later, the Azathanai created the Tiste I guess, which started living in KG as well. When the war against death itself failed the Jaghut returned to living in their city, until Gothos, who is presumably the lord of hate, dissembles it all out of despair of their failure against death. I think.

Then at some point the K'chain teleport from space to Wu to start dominating there.

At that point it gets a bit vague, because the High King has to appear somewhere, and Draconus has to make Dragnipur to hold Darkness.

In my crazy theory I think either the calling down of the CG or some poor fool who went looking into chaos accidentally found the portal to Starvald Demelain caused the falling apart of KG into the holds and warrens as we know then in MboftF. Imo dragons have to have something to do with this, since some of our important characters like Rake, Silchas, Osserc have to get their Draconean blood somewhere. Errastas might have something to do with this unleashing of dragons, since the killing of Hoods wife started something of Chaos around the death site we can read in FoD.

In an attempt to hold KG together, or at least allow for some transportation between the realms the Azathanai create the Azath houses, perhaps to hold the parts of the realm in place instead of having them wander around through Chaos.

The Azath houses are also build on Wu by the Azathanai, so this allows finally for some portals etc. to be made to Wu, so the FA, Imass can get to Wu. The tiste remain in their realm some time longer, since the FA have to war against the K'Chain before the Tiste do imo, which we learn in tCG (I think)

The events we read in FoD, with T'riss leads to a schism in the Tiste society, which I think makes them start their civil war, and in the end the Liosan hold some part of KG, while the Andii control Kharkanas obviously. The Edur at this point do not yet have some grand place yet, but that will come.

On the other hand, it seems Draconus is actually father dark, so to speak, and I think Arathan is father shadow, which makes the mother of Arathan mother light. I don't actually think there was, outside of title anyone called father light. But tales and legends tell us there is, which can obviously be wrong, look at everyone in MbotF telling they were the first race and the first this and that. It is very well possible that Father light, Urusander, is a creation of the Liosan, which has no relevance to the 'actual' Azathanai position of light. Im really sorry, I haven't as of yet thought this through very well, so my writing might be a bit horrible to read.

This is it for now, I have to continue studying for my exams, let me know what you think!

Ow last part, Burn, she lives in KG, but I think her little skull realm where she lives with all the roots begins to be its own realm after the disassembling of KG. And somehow she becomes the goddess of Wu

[Andorion]

Stralin, on 26 October 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Well I've got some crazy theory here.

There are like two separate worlds, Wu and KG. At Wu the Eres'al start appearing while the Jaghut and later the Azathanai appear in KG.

At first there were Jaghut and not Azathanai, since Gothos tells us they warred against death itself, and by the FoD happens there are few Jaghut left. Can't war against death with that little bunch. Later, the Azathanai created the Tiste I guess, which started living in KG as well. When the war against death itself failed the Jaghut returned to living in their city, until Gothos, who is presumably the lord of hate, dissembles it all out of despair of their failure against death. I think.

Then at some point the K'chain teleport from space to Wu to start dominating there.

At that point it gets a bit vague, because the High King has to appear somewhere, and Draconus has to make Dragnipur to hold Darkness.

In my crazy theory I think either the calling down of the CG or some poor fool who went looking into chaos accidentally found the portal to Starvald Demelain caused the falling apart of KG into the holds and warrens as we know then in MboftF. Imo dragons have to have something to do with this, since some of our important characters like Rake, Silchas, Osserc have to get their Draconean blood somewhere. Errastas might have something to do with this unleashing of dragons, since the killing of Hoods wife started something of Chaos around the death site we can read in FoD.

In an attempt to hold KG together, or at least allow for some transportation between the realms the Azathanai create the Azath houses, perhaps to hold the parts of the realm in place instead of having them wander around through Chaos.

The Azath houses are also build on Wu by the Azathanai, so this allows finally for some portals etc. to be made to Wu, so the FA, Imass can get to Wu. The tiste remain in their realm some time longer, since the FA have to war against the K'Chain before the Tiste do imo, which we learn in tCG (I think)

The events we read in FoD, with T'riss leads to a schism in the Tiste society, which I think makes them start their civil war, and in the end the Liosan hold some part of KG, while the Andii control Kharkanas obviously. The Edur at this point do not yet have some grand place yet, but that will come.

On the other hand, it seems Draconus is actually father dark, so to speak, and I think Arathan is father shadow, which makes the mother of Arathan mother light. I don't actually think there was, outside of title anyone called father light. But tales and legends tell us there is, which can obviously be wrong, look at everyone in MbotF telling they were the first race and the first this and that. It is very well possible that Father light, Urusander, is a creation of the Liosan, which has no relevance to the 'actual' Azathanai position of light. Im really sorry, I haven't as of yet thought this through very well, so my writing might be a bit horrible to read.

This is it for now, I have to continue studying for my exams, let me know what you think!

Ow last part, Burn, she lives in KG, but I think her little skull realm where she lives with all the roots begins to be its own realm after the disassembling of KG. And somehow she becomes the goddess of Wu

The war on Death is actually just starting in FoD, if you read the part about Draconus' visit to Gothos. It was started by Hood when he was almost mad from grief due to the death of his sister.

[Stralin]

Andorion, on 26 October 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Stralin, on 26 October 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Well I've got some crazy theory here.

There are like two separate worlds, Wu and KG. At Wu the Eres'al start appearing while the Jaghut and later the Azathanai appear in KG.

At first there were Jaghut and not Azathanai, since Gothos tells us they warred against death itself, and by the FoD happens there are few Jaghut left. Can't war against death with that little bunch. Later, the Azathanai created the Tiste I guess, which started living in KG as well. When the war against death itself failed the Jaghut returned to living in their city, until Gothos, who is presumably the lord of hate, dissembles it all out of despair of their failure against death. I think.

Then at some point the K'chain teleport from space to Wu to start dominating there.

At that point it gets a bit vague, because the High King has to appear somewhere, and Draconus has to make Dragnipur to hold Darkness.

In my crazy theory I think either the calling down of the CG or some poor fool who went looking into chaos accidentally found the portal to Starvald Demelain caused the falling apart of KG into the holds and warrens as we know then in MboftF. Imo dragons have to have something to do with this, since some of our important characters like Rake, Silchas, Osserc have to get their Draconean blood somewhere. Errastas might have something to do with this unleashing of dragons, since the killing of Hoods wife started something of Chaos around the death site we can read in FoD.

In an attempt to hold KG together, or at least allow for some transportation between the realms the Azathanai create the Azath houses, perhaps to hold the parts of the realm in place instead of having them wander around through Chaos.

The Azath houses are also build on Wu by the Azathanai, so this allows finally for some portals etc. to be made to Wu, so the FA, Imass can get to Wu. The tiste remain in their realm some time longer, since the FA have to war against the K'Chain before the Tiste do imo, which we learn in tCG (I think)

The events we read in FoD, with T'riss leads to a schism in the Tiste society, which I think makes them start their civil war, and in the end the Liosan hold some part of KG, while the Andii control Kharkanas obviously. The Edur at this point do not yet have some grand place yet, but that will come.

On the other hand, it seems Draconus is actually father dark, so to speak, and I think Arathan is father shadow, which makes the mother of Arathan mother light. I don't actually think there was, outside of title anyone called father light. But tales and legends tell us there is, which can obviously be wrong, look at everyone in MbotF telling they were the first race and the first this and that. It is very well possible that Father light, Urusander, is a creation of the Liosan, which has no relevance to the 'actual' Azathanai position of light. Im really sorry, I haven't as of yet thought this through very well, so my writing might be a bit horrible to read.

This is it for now, I have to continue studying for my exams, let me know what you think!

Ow last part, Burn, she lives in KG, but I think her little skull realm where she lives with all the roots begins to be its own realm after the disassembling of KG. And somehow she becomes the goddess of Wu

The war on Death is actually just starting in FoD, if you read the part about Draconus' visit to Gothos. It was started by Hood when he was almost mad from grief due to the death of his sister.

Explains, haven't quite finished Fod yet!

[Luperci]

DaddyDraconus, on 04 October 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny' sayz:This is also said to take place some 119,736 years BEFORE Burns Sleep, but we know for a fact in FoD that (spoilered in case Tiste Simeon hasn't got there yet):

Spoiler

Burn is already sleeping. And dreaming.

But in FOD burn is found in KG which is not the same world as Wu, so maybe her sleep is different in different realms. Also I do not believe there has been mention that burn has never woken up, just that doing so during the events of MBotF would be cataclysmic. For all we know the first falling of CG could have woke her from the jostling lol!

Isn't there mention that time doesn't move in a linear fashion while Sukul and the castle keeper are down there with Burn, maybe for her and everyone else time moves differently. My guess is that the older BotF series is getting changed a bit with this new trilogy taking place after it was written so idk if I would take everything literally in regard to the previous books and their timeline in relation to KG.

[Dayspring]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 05 November 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Its said that the Hammer that Brood carries "wakes" Burn, so perhaps the breaking of the FoD world - and possibly the sundering of Shadow - happens because Brood wields his hammer and wakes Burn, then Burn eventually goes back to sleep (i.e. the world settles down) and its this "sleep" that the calendar is employing in the MoI prologue. There's multiple chainings, multiple First Empires, and perhaps multiple resting periods of Burn.

In MoI, forgot the exact quote, but Brood disappears "a few centuries ago" and returns with a hammer. I don't think he's Burn's Mortal Sword at the time of FoD ( don't destroy me I took creative license with "Burn's Mortal Sword" there )