Malazan Empire: Omtose Phellack = Tellan? - Malazan Empire

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Omtose Phellack = Tellan?

#1 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 11:41 AM

I am just about to finish my second reread of Memories Ice and this theory justt struck me. I think that Tellan and Omtose Phellack are, or were in some point in the past, essentialy one and the same thing. Here is what I have to support it (my thoughts on this are mostly based on MoI, but I will also reference other books, and others will probably do that as well. So be warned, this may be full of spoilers):


1. Jaghut are not native to Omtose Phellack. They usurped it, and were capable of doing so only because Togg was lost (timeline-wise it makes no sense, because in Midnight Tides we see Gothos performing an Omtose Phellack ritual after the sundering of Emurlahn, and Mael says it's "Ice. Jaghut answer to everything", but hey, timeline is not important, right?). At first it was ruled by Togg and Fanderay - the Wolves of Winter, also worshipped by Imass. Additionally, Silverfox and her T'lan Imass are concerned about dangers (renegade T'lan Imass) to the Throne of the Beast, originally belonging to Togg and Fanderay. It seems clear that the Wolves of WInter ruled/originated from (or even created - usually it's Olar Ethil who takes credit for that, but Togg and Fanderay are much older than elder gods) Tellan or one of its aspects. So we have a pair of gods, who are aspected to... two elder warrens?

As for essential quote-fu: end of Chapter 19 MoI, Toc/Togg is talking to the Seer (actually to Mhybe, but he thinks it's Seer):

Quote

'You and your kind played with winter. Omtose Phellack. But
you never understood it. Not true winter, not the winter that is not
sorcery, but born of the cooling earth, the dwindling sun, the
shorter days and longer nights. The face I see before me, Seer, it is
winter's face. A wolf's. A god's.'

And few sentences later, this:

Quote

There is a god here, Seer, crouched before my secrets.
Fangs bared. Not even your dear mother, who holds me so tight,
dares challenge him. As for your Omtose Phellack—he would have
confronted you at that warren's gate long ago. He would have
denied it to you, Jaghut. To all of you. But he was lost. Lost. And
know this, I am helping him. I am helping him to find himself. He's
growing aware, Seer.


2. The aspects of Tellan and Omtose Phellack may at first look like complete opposites - fire and ice. But let's give it a deeper look. If Omtose Phellack is winter, which is said pretty clearly, then that would make Tellan its opposite - summer. But winter-summer is a whole different type of opposition from ice-fire. If there is fire, there can be no ice, and vice versa. If there is winter, summer will come soon. And then winter again. And so on. I am talking here about seasonality, which brings us to what I think is the true aspect of Omtose Phellack and Tellan. Time. With Omtose it was discussed on many occasion, but I think we will all agree that aforementioned scene from the prologue of MT, with Gothos performing ritual after the sundering of Emurlahn, makes it rather clear - the ice of Omtose Phellack has the power to freeze time. It does so by halting the evolution of magic in Lether. But what about Tellan? Well, look at the T'lan Imass. The ritual of Tellan is opposing time itself, by keeping them undead. So, magic of both Omtose Phellack and Tellan is capable of affecting the flow of time.

3. The last thing that I think proves that Omtose Phellack and Tellan are closely connected is worship. The worship of Jaghut by mortal Imass. We learn in MoI that Jaghut tyrants were treated as gods by many of the Imass tribes. And as we all know, in the Malazan world worship is not a small thing. Faith is a power in itself and creates a bond between a human (or, in this case, an Imass) and his god. So maybe that is how Jaghut gained access to the magic of time - through Imass. Maybe they shaped Omtose Phellack themselves or maybe it is just how Tellan manifested in their hands?

This is Chapter 15, MoI again, Silverfox explaining the wars with Jaghut:

Quote

The lesson was hard, not easily swallowed, for the truth was this:
there were intelligent beings in the world who exploited the virtues
of others, their compassion, their love, their faith in kin. Exploited,
and mocked. How many Imass tribes discovered that their gods
were in fact Jaghut Tyrants? Hidden behind friendly masks.
Tyrants, who manipulated them with the weapon of faith.
'The rebellion was inevitable, and it was devastating for the
Imass. Weaker, uncertain even of what it was they sought, or what
freedom would show them should they find it… But we would not
relent. We could not.'


So that's pretty much my theory: There is a warren of time (or seasonality), and Tellan/Omtose Phellack (actually,Phellack doesn't sound that different fromTellan :D ) are just two of its aspects. Like two sides of a coin. Or there WAS a warren of time, but when Jaghut usurped it, it became separated into two distinct realms, resulting in Beast Hold and Ice Hold being born. Crazy? Probably. But I think it makes at least a little bit of sense. What do you think?
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#2 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:58 AM

Interesting idea. It's been I while since I read. I have no answers, I just want to see how this discussion goes.
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#3 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:41 PM

Interesting, agreed. Time would be an elemental force pre-dating the Holds, Houses, & Warrens system. It could be possible that each race would alter the expression of power to suit its own archetype, or paradigm of reality, regardless of the true nature of that power's source.

At any rate, have rep for thinking.
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#4 User is offline   Elzhi 

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 05:30 PM

There is a comment in Midnight Tides that I'd like to bring up here, but I'm not sure if I should. Spoilers and all, about the Beast Hold.

Very interesting theory, btw. I would like to discuss this more but I need to refresh my MoI memories. I tend to forget a lot of things after I finish the book.

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#5 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:11 AM

Quote

There is a comment in Midnight Tides that I'd like to bring up here, but I'm not sure if I should. Spoilers and all, about the Beast Hold.

Sure thing you shoul, it;s general books forum, you can reference all novels, but if you feel uncertain about a particular quote just spoiler tag it :)
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#6 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:07 PM

I think you misunderstand.

Winter is not Ice. Just like Night is not Kurald Galain and Summer is not Telas or Thyrlan. They are related yes, they probably can't exist with out one another but they are not the same.

Forge of Darkness spoilers

Spoiler


It's right there in your own quote:

Quote

Not true winter, not the winter that is not sorcery, but born of the cooling earth, the dwindling sun, the shorter days and longer nights.


The Winter the Wolves remember is a concept, an idea or maybe even an age. Not a physical realm. Most likely, the Wolves of Winter were worshipped by the dogrunners or what ever sentient life existed before everyone we meet in FOD even existed.

If the Jaghut usurped anything, in their immense arrogance, it was an aspect that the Wolves of Winter may have used in an age that probably lies before even "the wandering".

It is not Ice that sustains the Imass's immortality, or even Fire for that matter I suspect. When the Imass performed their ritual something was taken from them. Their life force, probably even their souls, and it was used as fuel to do what ever mojo was worked to transform them into what they are now. It is not an on going process. They are dead for ever. A million years will not change their form.

As far as we know, if I recall correctly anyway, Tellan didn't even exist before the ritual of Tellan. The Imass stole fire/was given it by Olar Ethil and used it to continue their fight against the Jaghut and their Ice magic. Either the ritual created Tellan as a kind of manifestation of the Imass's power or somebody tore out a big chunk of Telas or Thyrlan (or both) and made it into the Imass's racial warren.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 16 September 2013 - 12:10 PM

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#7 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:11 PM

About that Forge of Darkness thing:
Spoiler


As for the Wolves, I think the winter they mention is BOTH a concept and a physical realm - that wouldn't be a new thing to the Malazan world (eg. passing through the Hood's Gate is a symbol of dying, but souls literally do go through that magical gate. Night and darkness represent the very nature of Tise Andii, and Kurald Galain is literally pitch black). That's what Toc/Togg means when he says:
As for your Omtose Phellack—he would haveconfronted you at that warren's gate long ago. He would havedenied it to you, Jaghut. To all of you.

Quote

It is not Ice that sustains the Imass's immortality, or even Fire for that matter I suspect. When the Imass performed their ritual something was taken from them. Their life force, probably even their souls, and it was used as fuel to do what ever mojo was worked to transform them into what they are now. It is not an on going process. They are dead for ever. A million years will not change their form.

If I understand correctly, that's pretty much what I am saying as well. It is not magic of ice or fire, but of time.

Quote

Either the ritual created Tellan as a kind of manifestation of the Imass's power or somebody tore out a big chunk of Telas or Thyrlan (or both) and made it into the Imass's racial warren.

Isn't it the other way round? I thought that Telas is a branch of Tellan accesible to humans via K'rul's sacrifice of his own blood.

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 16 September 2013 - 01:12 PM

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#8 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:23 PM

If Togg/Fancytail are older than the Jaghut, then they would have a different concept of winter, cold, time, etc


The interesting contrast is while Toc/Togg refers to an end of the universe type cold, essentially entropy, the Jaghut cold actually stops 'erosion', as Gothos did on Leth when he froze death.
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#9 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:36 PM

This is a GotM quote

Quote

The Imass was silent for a minute, then he said, "I am born of an Elder Warren, Adjunct, known as Tellann. It is more than a source of magic, it is also a time."

"Are you suggesting that the barrow exists in a different time? Is that how you plan to reach it—by using your Tellann Warren?"

"No, there is no parallel time any different from the one we know. That time is gone, past. It is more a matter of . . . flavor. Adjunct, may I continue?"

Lorn's mouth thinned into a straight line. "The Jaghut who entombed the Tyrant were born of a different Elder Warren. But the term 'Elder' is relative only to the existing Warrens of this age. The Jaghut Omtose Phellack is not 'Elder' when compared to Tellann. They are the same, of the same flavor. Do you understand thus far, Adjunct?"

"Patronizing bastard," she muttered to herself. "Yes, Tool."

The Imass nodded, his bones creaking. "The barrow has not been found before, precisely because it is Omtose Phellack. It lies within a Warren now lost to the world. Yet, I am Tellann. My Warren touches Omtose Phellack. I can reach it, Adjunct. Any T'lan Imass could. I was chosen because I am without a Clan. I am alone in every way."



In SW,

Quote

The Lady scorns them, views their practices as beneath her. But all this time they have maintained their ancient ways, employed their Warren – a version of Tellann, I believe – quietly, without notice. Him we have to convince to help us.'


Quote

They marched, scanning the woods to either side, crossbows at shoulders. Suth caught a glimpse of some huge beast moving through a glade – of a set of gigantic antlers upraised, almost occluding a surprisingly fat and large moon. That none fired a bolt spoke of the strict adherence to the wait-for-go orders.

Suth stared back at that moon. He could've sworn it had been a sliver crescent last time he'd seen it. He was so absorbed he stumbled over Goss' heels and the man righted him. 'Ignore everything,' he told him. 'Unless it bites you.'

Suth nodded, chastened.
Things got very strange after that. The forest became extraordinarily wild and dense. Everyone released the tension on their crossbows and swung them on to their backs. Swords came out to hack a route. A mist rose, obscuring everything but the tall thick trunks and the vines surrounding them. Those vines occasionally snagged ankles and wrists but quick work from everyone hacked them away; Suth couldn't tell whether that catching was accidental or deliberate. Soon the mist was swept away by a lashing heated wind that halted them with its fury. Branches slashed them. Suth held a forearm across his eyes, head down. After the wind had passed smoke boiled over them, chokingly thick.. It slowly dispersed as they felt their way onward. Ahead, the forest was a blackened wasteland of standing shattered trunks. Beyond that rose a wall of ridges and cliffs, bare and black, billowing plumes of smoke, flame-lashed and glowing, obscuring half the night sky.


At some point they came out of the warren. It is not clear whether the last part is in Fist or in the Tellan-like warren.



In MOI

Quote

'The last Gathering,' Silverfox replied, 'was hundreds of thousands of years ago, at which was invoked the Ritual of Tellann - the binding of the Tellann warren to each and every Imass. The ritual made them immortal, High Fist. The life force of an entire people was bound in the name of a holy war destined to last for millennia-'



This is Paran's knowledge obtained in the Azath (probably very reliable)

Quote

Knowledge blossomed in his mind. He knew the name of this place, knew it deep in his soul. The Hold of the Beasts ... long before the First Throne ... this was the heart of the T'lan Imass's power - their spirit world, when they were still flesh and blood, when they still possessed spirits to be worshipped and revered. Long before they initiated the Ritual of Tellann ... and so came to outlast their own pantheon ...

A realm, then, abandoned. Lost to its makers. What then, is the Warren of Tellann that the T'lan Imass now use? Ah, that warren must have been born from the Ritual itself, a physical manifestation of their Vow of Immortality, perhaps. Aspected, not of life, nor even death. Aspected ... of dust.



Quote

The ground trembled beneath her boots as the wave crashed into the top of the wall to the west of the gate. Blinding - this is High Telas, the Warren of Fire - child of Tellann-

Telas is more raw fire where as in Tellan, fire was very important to sustain life. Tellan is more like a place, a forest or tundra in which fire was used.

Quote

The Warren of Tellann opened. The chamber's musty air was swept away. A sweet smell of wet tundra, acrid mosses and softened lichen flowed in on a soft, warm breeze.
The ay bound through the portal.
Kilava closed it after the beast.

This post has been edited by nacht: 19 September 2013 - 06:48 PM

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#10 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:46 PM

Great quotes. It's funny, we connect the warren of Tellann with fire, because we know the Imass used fire to wage war against the Jaghuts magic, but perhaps Tellann doesn't have much to do with fire at all... or, perhaps Tellanns connection with fire is an age or era. The Tellann memory, we for example see in MT and RG, of tundras and forests is the past, the Tellann of the present is one of fire and dust, maybe? Thus the recreation of the Imass memories of the Beast Hold constructed in the Mhybes mind?
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#11 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

It all makes even more sense with our FoD knowledge. Dog Runners are called such because they run with the Ay. Togg and Fandaray were spirits who lived inside of Ay.

However I do think Tellan and fire are related somehow, mostly because of The Crippled God tuff where Tool is running around talking about "raging fires" and how it Tellan can hide in a spark, etc. etc. I wonder if it was embraced as fire because of two things: Olar Ethil coming to the Dog Runners via their fires, and how she would appear in almost any fire if you concentrated on it enough. Also, when Rint burns her in the tree, he talks about power from desire:

Quote


I know I but send you back into the flames. And in fire there is doubtless no pain for one such as you.’ He splashed oil against the bole of the tree, emptied the flask. ‘Unless … the desire behind the fire has power. I think it does. I think that is why a raider’s firing a house is a crime, an affront. Burning to death – malicious hands touching the flame to life – I think this has meaning. I think it stains the fire itself.’

...

‘I do this wanting to hurt you, Olar Ethil. And I want that to matter.’



So this is her aspect, but it was used against her and she maybe becomes something else. After growing fat on her worshippers sacrifices, she tires of them, but being crazy also loves them, and binds them to the warren itself, which eventually comes about, thank you very much K'rul. We know from TCG that she can release them from the ritual if she likes and let their souls go wherever they go, but she doesn't like. She's going to use them like they used her, so she and they all could be "reborn".

And then there is also this little deal that Haut tells Korya:

Quote

...fire marks the passage of time in that it demonstrably offers us the transition of one thing into another.


Sorry if I went a little off topic, but these things can be very interrelated.

Quote

‘Dog-Runner magic is all about fire, and earth. Dog-Runner magic fears the sky. Fire and earth, and tree and root. They’re gone from here because the forests are gone.’

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#12 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostCrustaceous Apt, on 19 September 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Great quotes. It's funny, we connect the warren of Tellann with fire, because we know the Imass used fire to wage war against the Jaghuts magic, but perhaps Tellann doesn't have much to do with fire at all... or, perhaps Tellanns connection with fire is an age or era. The Tellann memory, we for example see in MT and RG, of tundras and forests is the past, the Tellann of the present is one of fire and dust, maybe? Thus the recreation of the Imass memories of the Beast Hold constructed in the Mhybes mind?


We can only speculate

What is interesting is that the Imass have never used fire to battle anything (unlike say how Tays uses Telas).
The Imass are dangerous because they can not be killed. In addition maybe Tellan offers to them some form of defense against other warrens and maybe it could also be used for travel.
The other power is that they can convert to dust and move in that form. Dust or more accurately Ash is tied to fire. The Imass themselves worshipped the Beast Hold (where there spirits used to reside). The Dust aspect is unique to them and the Crimson Guard don't seem to have that ability.

Like Apt, I would speculate that Olar did something with the ritual: twisted their existing warren in some manner. Maybe she bound all Imass with Fire within the Beast Hold creating a new warren where the Tundra like place exists but the Imass themselves were converted to dust with the ability to reform into undead fighters. This was all Olar's play and she probably tricked them using the Jaghut as an excuse so as to control them

The other interesting thing is that Olar did not seem to have created the Imass race (contrast this with Draconus and his relationship to the Tiste or Killy and the FA).
Maybe they were some other Azathanaii's (Burn's?) and by gifting Fire to them, she subverted their allegiance.

This post has been edited by nacht: 20 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

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