Malazan Empire: The Realms - Malazan Empire

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The Realms Where is here? Is it there? Was it elsewhere? Let's share!

#1 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:41 PM

The book forums have become somewhat quiet lately. I wrote this in a hurry on the MBotF FB page, so forgive me for being terse and perhaps just flat out misinformed. And a little drunk. So this is for some discussion/fun.

Some suppositions:

- The Tiste, Thel Akai, Imass, Jaghut, Jheck/Jheleck and Azathanai are native to their homelands as per the FoD map.

- The Eres, Deregoth and K'Chain are all native to what we consider to be "Wu", which may also somehow Burn's dream.

- Rancept tells Sukul that Burn dreams so that we all may live. Sounds like part of Krul's bargain ends up turning the lands of FoD from wandering into the separate lands of the holds (Darkness, Light, Ice, Beast, Shadow, etc), perhaps because of Errastas' meddling.

- The Imass are known to have inhabited Tiste lands:

Quote

‘This is Dog-Runner magic,’ said Rancept.
‘That’s impossible. There were never any Dog-Runners this far east.’
‘This wasn’t always Tiste land, milady.’


- We still don't know how old Burn is or how long she has been dreaming. We cannot be sure if she is Imass or Tiste. She is mostly tree in FoD.

- The Imass of the Tiste lands move south of the Tiste lands, and end up eventually inhabiting Wu/Burn's dream, somehow conflating the lands the Dogrunner Imass fled to.

- One of the themes of FoD is the destruction of nature by the Tiste.

- The Deniers (including the Shake) worship the River God, but the Imass that fled end up worshipping Olar Ethil because they see her in their Fires.

Final thoughts:

Burn dreams of the realm that is Wu. That realm is made up of where the eresal and eventually the imass have fled to.

Quote

There is a forge that is the first forge. Its heat is the first heat. Its fire is the first fire, born in the time before the Dog-Runners, in the time of the Eresal who have long since vanished into the grasslands of the south, where the jungles crawl down to unknown seas.


And the other realms/holds (ice, beast, darkness, light, shadow, dragon, azath, etc) are separated and kept from one another via "gates" through kruls bargain with the elient.

Kharkanas and kurald galain are assailed through the combined gifts of the terondai draconus gave mother dark, thus no protection and they weaken, though already dying from destruction of nature. Kurald Thryllan is inhabitable to all but but the liossan, shadow/Emurlahn is sundered, beast hold loses its gods, ice hold is left alone through jaghut apathy and hood's war on death; starvald demelain is sealed a la the otataral dragon, and perhaps the escaping dragons are trying to leave before being trapped for Tiam-knows-how-long. The andii and the edur flee to Wu in several phases, cuz there is no where else to go, and do battle with the k'chain either because they think they mean war or because it's tiste nature. The imass are faced with incessant war from jaghut and human tyrants, but humans just keep fucking and breeding and end up overwhelming wu through sheer numbers and through hold and warren magic.

I'm curious if the Holds are merely representative of the elder wanderings only, and they may have even got their magic mojo going around the same time as the warrens. From there, different elements of the holds evolved into the houses.

This is where my brain starts to leak out of my nose.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#2 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:49 PM

In terms of Realms, there is alto the Vitr sea and the Chaos Realm ( bordered by the Spar of Andii)

Quote

‘You imagine Mother Dark succumbed to invention? She walked to the End of Darkness, and stood on a spar surrounded in chaos. And when she called upon that chaos, shapes emerged from the wildness.



Quote

‘I see Chaos, Errastas. An endless storm.’ ‘We make this place a trap. Let its Tiste name stand. Spar of Andii it shall remain – it hardly confers a right to ownership. By our deeds we undermine its purity. K’rul is not the only one who understands the efficacy of blood.’



Also in FoD, Draconus clearly has access to some kind of "Night"

Quote

His father collected up the reins and swung Calaras around. He rode out into the centre of the clearing, and as he did so the light faded around him, as if night itself had been summoned and now drew close to welcome its suzerain. In the moments before all light vanished, swallowing Draconus and his mount, Arathan saw a transformation come to Calaras. The stallion’s black hide deepened, his form blurring at the edges, his eyes flaring as if suddenly lit with lurid flames.
Then they vanished within impenetrable darkness. A moment later the day’s dying light swept in once more, revealing an empty clearing.


It is also interesting that the Jaghut don't live in any form of "Iceland".
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#3 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:59 PM

And dont forget the Forulkan.
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#4 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

My hypothesis is that Burn is not the goddess of Earth/Stone but more the goddess of "life", i.e. she sustains life in some manner.
She might not even be an azathanaii.

This is Burn's warren as descibed in MOI (Driss?)

Quote

A vaguely human-shaped figure towered over him, easily fifteen times the wizard's own height, its bulk nearly reaching the cavern's domed ceiling. Dark flesh of clay studded with rough diamonds gleamed and glittered as the apparition shifted slightly. It seemed to be ignoring Quick Ben - though the wizard knew that it had been this beast that had saved him from the Crippled God. Its arms were raised to the ceiling directly above it, hands disappearing into the murky, red-stained roof. Vast arcs of dull white gleamed in that ceiling, evenly spaced like an endless succession of ribs. The hands appeared to be gripping or possibly were fused to two such ribs.

Just visible beyond the creature, perhaps a thousand paces down the cavern's length, squatted another such apparition, its arms upraised as well.

Twisting, Quick Ben's gaze traveled the opposite length of the cavern. More servants - the wizard saw four, possibly five of them - each one reaching up to the ceiling. The cavern was in fact a vast tunnel, curving in the distance.


In an interview SE said that warrens are both like different dimensions and different worlds.

It is also mentioned in one of the books that the blood of dragons passes through different dimensions/worlds.



We know that Krul created the "Imperial" warren based on some part of Jackuruku that was destroyed by Kallor and the fall of the crippled god.


Some of the options are .

1. The world of Wu was created from the world of FoD by removing large sections of it and sealing these sections (Kurald Galain, Kurald Liosan, Vitr, Chaos (Starvald Demelian), Ice Hold). The only way to access these realms is through gates. The map shown in FoD is only a part of it. There were other continets like Lether.that were inhabited by the K'Chain Che'Malle, Eres etc.
2. FoD world got destroyed/unlivable and all the people in it were transported to a new world of Wu (which was made hospitable/terraformed with the help of Burn). The original inhabitants of the Wu World were the K'Chain Che'Malle.

This post has been edited by nacht: 10 September 2013 - 10:12 PM

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#5 User is offline   Siergiej 

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

I may be wrong (started re-reading, but only halfway through Memories of Ice at the moment), but I think K'rul created warrens, not holds. Holds (Ice, Beast, etc) are older and more... primal. Also, in the prologue of MoI, one of the wolf/beast gods (they were Togg and Fanderay, right?) says in his thoughts that elder gods (K'rul, Draconus, Nightchill) are much younger than he is. The Holds may be what was left of the world of Forge of Darkness, when shit really hit the fan (somehow, I guess...), and the founding races started fleeing tu Wu. Which, of course, is a completely different story. Because what the hell is Wu? Since the world inhabited by everyone is Burn's dream, and K'rul is aspected to dreams I thought that maybe he shaped Burn's dream so that Andii, Imass, Jaghut, and everyone else could live there... but what about K'Chain, who were there way, way before anyone else (in MoI Kallor says that KCCM are to Jaghut what Jaghut are to Imass)? Damn, my head hurts.

EDIT

Just stumbled upon an interesting quote from MoI, especially considering the vague connection between Kruppe and K'rul. This is how Kruppe expalins to Coll and Murillio how he managed to resist Brood's fury:

Quote

And well she should! To answer Coll with succinct precision,
Kruppe proclaims that anger—nay, rage—has no efficacy against
one such as himself, for whom the world is as a pearl nestled within
the slimy confines of his honed and muscled brain
. Uh, perhaps the
allusion falters with second thought… and worse with third. Kruppe
tries again! For whom, it was said, the world is naught but a
plumaged dream
of colours and wonders unimagined, where even
time itself has lost meaning, speaking of which, it's very late, yes?
Sleep beckons, the stream of calm transubstantiation that
metamorphoses oblivion into reparation and rejuvenation, and that
alone is wonder enough for one and all to close this fitful night!'
:

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 10 September 2013 - 11:17 PM

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#6 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:15 PM

Part of the confusion is the terminology with the same words used in different contexts.

I think there are three different contexts

1. Worlds/Realms (like Kurald Galain with Kharkanas city, Tellan).
2. Powers (for ex. Devaleth channels Ruse to create a tsunami), Tennes,
3. Divination (Holds and the Deck of Dragons).


For Divination, even though the term Holds and Decks are used, there are essentially groups of cards/layout representing players. For example the "house of chains" or "House of Life" or the "House of Shadow"
For Powers, not all warrens/holds are actually physical places. For example, the power of the Empty hold channeled by the Letherii mages or Mockra which does not actually represent any physical location.
Finally there are the Worlds/Realms and what is confusing is that they also act as power sources. People can actually walk through these. Tellan (used for movement in SW), Kurald Galain, Kural Liossan, Shadow/Emurlahn, Ice Hold/Omtose Prellack through which Hedge and Emroth travel)

I think what K'rul created is the ability for people to access the power sources (which they could only do before by doing blood sacrifices).
Divination itself seems to be specific talent (maybe related to Mockra or the Queen of Dreams) which in reality is unrelated to the actual warrens and holds.
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#7 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 03:37 PM

I think you guys definitely have valid points. But what I'm getting at is that at SOME point, there is a "breaking" of the old worlds. During FoD, Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain, Thel Akai, etc...these are all physical places with environments and landscape. During MBotF these places are Holds, and to a lesser/more evolved extent, warrens, where their people's have access to them, and humans can use rituals involving blood to access them (see Heuk in RotCG, Felash in DoD/TCG). Thus something happens either via K'rul's gift or some other kind of thing, possibly involving mhaybes, like Korya. Haut, Gothos, Draconus, T'riss, Grizzin Farl, Errastas...these guys seem to know what's coming with K'rul, and Haut gives some good insight about Keruli having to "die" to become K'rul.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#8 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:29 PM

i could be wrong, but isn't it suggested in FoD that Krul has already attempted some sort of 'shaping'?
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#9 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:46 PM

Yes he did.

Quote

‘You were telling me about an Azathanai named K’rul.’
‘Not even his fellow Azathanai understand what he did, or even why. Perhaps he but tests his own immortality. Or perhaps ennui drove him to it. Here we skirt the chasm of intentions. He gives no answer to entreaty.’
‘What did he do?’
‘He bled, and from the wounds he opened upon himself, in the blood itself, he gave birth to mysterious power. Sorcery. Magic in many currents and flavours. They are young still, vague in aspect, only barely sensed. Those who do sense them might choose to flee, or venture closer. In exploration, these currents find definition.’


But we also know b/c of MoI that he can continue to create more places/move things around.

Again, I think this is just me meandering through my mind trying to imagine the world as one thing and how it got be something else.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#10 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 13 September 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

I think you guys definitely have valid points. But what I'm getting at is that at SOME point, there is a "breaking" of the old worlds. During FoD, Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain, Thel Akai, etc...these are all physical places with environments and landscape. During MBotF these places are Holds, and to a lesser/more evolved extent, warrens, where their people's have access to them, and humans can use rituals involving blood to access them (see Heuk in RotCG, Felash in DoD/TCG). Thus something happens either via K'rul's gift or some other kind of thing, possibly involving mhaybes, like Korya. Haut, Gothos, Draconus, T'riss, Grizzin Farl, Errastas...these guys seem to know what's coming with K'rul, and Haut gives some good insight about Keruli having to "die" to become K'rul.



In the FOD context, "Holds" are simply places. There is Kurald Galain and the city of Omtose Phellack. As you have said these places get sealed off at some point in the future.
But the power of "sorcery" is different from the physical location. (though they may be called by the same name.)

From this quote below, we see that all Tiste were granted access to the sorcery of Darkness. This sorcery became known as the Elder Warren of Kural Galain (Warren of Darkness would have been more appropriate) and the fact there is a landmass/hold called Kurald Galain is irrelevant. The compact here is between Draconus and the the Tiste.

Quote

'Who? Haut? He's done nothing of the sort. I am his maid, his cook, his slave.' 'Lessons in humility. But no, I was not speaking of Haut. I was speaking of Draconus.' 'The Consort? I have never even met him!' 'Ah. By "you" I meant the Tiste. Draconus has given the Tiste the sorcery of Darkness. He has walked the Forest of Night, and the very shores of Chaos itself. It is within you, mahybe, and your progress has been observed by many.'



Similarly Krul gave away the gift of sorcery

Quote

'You were telling me about an Azathanai named K'rul.'

'Not even his fellow Azathanai understand what he did, or even why. Perhaps he but tests his own immortality. Or perhaps ennui drove him to it. Here we skirt the chasm of intentions. He gives no answer to entreaty.'

'What did he do?' 'He bled, and from the wounds he opened upon himself, in the blood itself, he gave birth to mysterious power. Sorcery. Magic in many currents and flavours. They are young still, vague in aspect, only barely sensed. Those who do sense them might choose to flee, or venture closer. In exploration, these currents find definition.'

'It is said,' Korya ventured, 'that the Jaghut possess their own sorcery. As do the Dog-Runners, and the Thel Akai, and even the Forulkan.' 'And the Tiste?' Haut asked.



So K'ruls gift is the source of the warrens (somehow tied to SD and KG as descirbed in RG)

In terms of sorcery there are two kinds, Elder warrens sourced by Azathanaii power (gifted to races through some means) and K'ruls warrens. These are not places but different kinds of sorcery.
It so happens that incidentally there is correlation to some place names

The source of Azathanaii sorcery is Azathanai blood.

Quote

The captain's brows rose. 'Lord, her sorcery is not Azathanai.'
'Isn't it? She feeds her power, but how?'
'Not by blood!'


The Tiste fear sorcery because it seems that it is obtained in exchange for blood sacrifice.


And similarly we should not bring the Divination Deck/Hold intto the picture. For example, High House Dark is just a representation of an aligned set of playes (The Tiiste Andii).
Too confusing, I know. Sorry.

This post has been edited by nacht: 13 September 2013 - 06:38 PM

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#11 User is offline   NefaraisBredd 

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:30 PM

Burn is an Azathanai, methinks. Sister to Olar Ethil perhaps? Maybe she precedes Olar Ethil but then again, the Azathanai are referred to as the 'neverborn', so there! Lol. Um, the constant reference to her sleeping (Burn) may be referring to the fact that, if she wakes up, the world will end in fire. Who she was before she slept.is almost irrelevant at this point in the story. She has become an elemental force, akin to the Greek god Pontus or the Furies.
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#12 User is offline   Avernite 

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:00 PM

I was thinking...

what if the 'world' of FoD is Emurlahn? And its' shattering is the forming of all the major warrens (Kurald Galain/Thyrllan most especially, but maybe also Omtose Phellack)? The MBoTF world is then a new world, or perhaps even the same; perhaps K'rul or someone else excised the wound caused by the Tiste civil war and the Vitr, and in so doing shattered Tiste sorcery into hundreds of pieces. Or maybe he/she/it excised all the Tiste, whereupon they shattered this excised part themselves, with Emurlahn the natural state of said world (while Kurald Galain/Thyrlann represent merely purified shards of Emurlahn).

Of course - this leads to the question, if the world is still the same, where was Kharkanas before the shattering? Jacuruku, after all, exists after Kallor. Most obvious would be Coral or thereabout, or Drift Avalii, but I have no good answer that makes me think 'it MUST be there'.
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