[Jalan]

I'll have to get back tomorrow

Speculation is less risky today because everyone is free from the accusations of fishing due to failed NAs that will come along

We'll see after a couple days go by how things are going

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 13 hours remaining

19 Players still alive: Alkend, Anthras, Barghast, Cast, D'riss, Desra, Eloth, Gait, Galain, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Korbas, Liosan, Mockra, Okaros, Rashan, Tellan, Trake

10 votes to lynch, 10 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for D'riss ( Liosan )

Players not voted: Alkend, Anthras, Barghast, Cast, D'riss, Desra, Eloth, Gait, Galain, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Korbas, Mockra, Okaros, Rashan, Tellan, Trake

[Cast]

Man, the day is going to time out and I won't be around to vote/change vote after a couple of hours.

Unless I'm mistaken, we keep having games with timed-out early lynches. This just seems like bad play. Role and team speculation is fine but it's just a bunch of guesses. Nobody is going to be 100% correct, even if it's low TMDI. It ain't vanilla.

So, the only real case I've seen lately is Okaros talking about Desra... it's a terrible case, but hey, it's Day 1 and I have no obvious reason to not vote for Desra =p

Vote Desra

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 11 hours and 6 minutes remaining
19 Players still alive: Alkend, Anthras, Barghast, Cast, D'riss, Desra, Eloth, Gait, Galain, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Korbas, Liosan, Mockra, Okaros, Rashan, Tellan, Trake

10 votes to lynch, 10 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for D'riss ( Liosan )
1 Vote for Desra ( Cast )

Players not voted: Alkend, Anthras, Barghast, D'riss, Desra, Eloth, Gait, Galain, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Korbas, Mockra, Okaros, Rashan, Tellan, Trake

[Korbas]

Okaros, on 30 July 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

[snip]

Now, I'm not saying that this is 100% definitely a slip, but there's a CHANCE that Desra is scum and already trying to cloud the game and town's information early, but didn't think it through and realize the obvious problem of clan names because Desra's own scum role PM doesn't have the clan name omission (ie it says YOU ARE FUJIWARI NYAGGHHHH).

OR, there is a chance that Alkend or Lio so happily supported the idea because of the same reasons.

A totally weak and improbable case, but if nothing better comes along, I think Desra would be a better choice for the necessary day 1 lynch than anyone else for this reason, and Alkend and Lio being not quite as good as Desra but still better than everyone else choices.

Interesting point. Although I suspect that Desra's speculation is coming from the same place as D'riss' recruiting speculation, and it just means neither of them have read the OP properly (it happens, and I have been guilty of it myself), it is certainly something to keep in mind.

I'm also a little suspicious of Liosan. His antagonistic style is rubbing me up the wrong way. Also this quote from Anthras:

Anthras, on 29 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

What would be interesting is if the scum were 2 pairs of paired killers and a 'general'. Scum killer pairs can only kill members of town in one of the castles, so having a slightly bigger than normal scum team would be balanced out by the fact that they can only technically kill off half of town each. This could also mean that we need only kill off the scum general to win the game.

What I don't like about this idea is what happens if we kill off the killers? Does the general just have to hide among town and try to steer lynches away from him? The game would become pretty much impossible for scum to win if that were to happen.

you sound like you want scum to win.

Which just sounds like reaching, particularly as the context was a discussion of game balance.

Basically, I'm not really sure who to vote for, and I'd be suspicious of anyone who said they were. Not particularly helpful, I know

[Gait]

Catching up.

One thing that strikes me: you guys are making this thing way too difficult. Town is town, but the town is built up from two factions from the narrative.
Hence, who survives has impact on the game as it is, and maybe the Clan leaders are in here and roled, but for this game it doesn't matter. Or at the least, that is my take on it.

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Liosan, on 29 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

So, I just took some time to read over all the intro stuff careful. Here's my question: do the (what I am assuming is) 2 town factions win together? I am assuming so, otherwise it would be more a faction game than a town vs scum game, but if that's the case, what's the point of having 2 town factions besides the fact that it's two castles?

Could all town maybe just count as one faction, and there are 2 scum factions?

See D'riss this is a valid speculation.

Desra, I'd assume that they would win together as a win by town helps even the playing field by weakening the scum team. Though for the continued story I'm curious how Shin will play it if town wins yet scum is able to eliminate one town faction entirely.

So then what are we thinking number wise? 3 scum, 2 teams of 8 town each? 5 scum, 2 teams of 7 town each?

Considering we only have to kill off the scum general(s), it seems to me that scum would have a slightly bigger than normal team, so I'd lean more towards 5 scum. Any thoughts?

My initial guess is that there will be 2 groups of scum killers (generals) since there are 2 clans of town forces. Maybe a symp for each killer who knows only his boss. Would the 2 killers know each other? Any comms? Are there other scum roles besides these 2?

A more proficient game creating player could perhaps comment on balance at this point.

I am trying to wrap my head around it, and it's tough.

See, if there are 19 players, I think it stands to reason that there are 2 equal teams of town players, and 1 team of scum with uneven numbers - thus, 5 scum, and 7 town per castle (or some similar permutation). The thing that's throwing me for a bit of a loop is the 2 castles thing.

What would be interesting is if the scum were 2 pairs of paired killers and a 'general'. Scum killer pairs can only kill members of town in one of the castles, so having a slightly bigger than normal scum team would be balanced out by the fact that they can only technically kill off half of town each. This could also mean that we need only kill off the scum general to win the game.

Shin defined in the OP that killers = generals. The mysterious role you're hinting at is thus not a general.
In this case, I'd expect 2x scum killers and a symp who knows all of them and somehow has to prevent killer-pair 1 from targeting killer-pair 2 and vice versa through signalling.

[Gait]

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, Barghy, looks like you semi-answered (presciently) while I was slowly posting so even though your flippant analysis of the last few games is mostly correct, I must point out that no one was talking about any roles except scum roles. Do you really think it helps scum to get a number of possible scenarios out the for contemplation? Unless we summarily adopt one and pursue it to the exclusion of all else, I say we are merely brainstorming.

more like last 70+ games.

and yes, throwing out number of killers doesn't do anything (unless they don't know each other). But throwing out spec about symps could be helpful to them. and problem with spec is, once ppl start they rarely know when to stop.

Anyhow, my point was quite simply is that rigth now we don't have much to go on. And we won't at least for a few days. That's normal, just as lynching townies is normal, and we should not be making a huge deal out if it. But if I go on talking about this, i'll just start repeating what we've already discussed ad nauseum numerous times.

I am taking exception at the italicized text.

The point here is that speculating on scum will not do much that scum themselves didn't realize themselves if the hypothesis is accurate, and it will be clarified fairly soon (night 1) if we're wrong. The thing that hurts us, is prolongued speculation on town role distribution.

I also really, really don't like that you plan the next few days in as organised chaos. It seems you're pre-emptively taking a position that will more or less excuse you from jumping on the bandwagon for easy lynches, pressing and being wrong, and dismissing any early leads as 'early game chaos'. It is a good position for a symp to be maneuvering themselves into.

So as far as I am concerned, you can stick your generalisations where the rising sun doesn't shine, and get out of your high tree-house, good sir.

[Kalse]

With my catch up (just reading posts, not who has posted them) I came to the idea that there is a lot of defense of other players going on. So I went back to read up and see who is defending who and the main culprit stands out as Alkend. This makes me believe he is trying very hard to get people on his side. No one likes to be lynched so when you have a friendly person backing you up, you are less likely to look at that person.

Alkend, on 29 July 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Liosan, on 29 July 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Hmmm yep Hanas does more than do a drive by post. So much for that one odd post feeling I was getting. Maybe we should do a pressure vote on say Trake. Well I'm probably off for a while now.

you are bizarrely aggressive
cant say i am a fan

I do not see how this makes Liosan aggressive,seems like Alkend doesn't like the idea of a Trake vote.

Alkend, on 30 July 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Korbas, on 29 July 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

In terms of specific suspicions, D'riss' comment on recruiting raised flags for me, but that could simply be a reaction to the number of high-TDMI games we've had recently.

in drisss defence the previous warring states had recruiting so i can understand the thought process
but the tmdi and setup here doesnt seem high enough imo

Comes to defense of D'riss

Alkend, on 30 July 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

@Okaros the castles belong to different clans
"laying siege to the one remaining stronghold of the Miura, and one of the outer castles of the Uesugi clan in order to increase their influence in the Kanto region" from the opening
castles/clans/factions are all synonyms

defense of Desra


After reading up, I think I would like to vote Alkend for trying not to cause waves, to be on everyone's good side.

Vote Alkend

[Trake]

Checking in before work, back at break time.

[Korbas]

Gait, on 30 July 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, Barghy, looks like you semi-answered (presciently) while I was slowly posting so even though your flippant analysis of the last few games is mostly correct, I must point out that no one was talking about any roles except scum roles. Do you really think it helps scum to get a number of possible scenarios out the for contemplation? Unless we summarily adopt one and pursue it to the exclusion of all else, I say we are merely brainstorming.

more like last 70+ games.

and yes, throwing out number of killers doesn't do anything (unless they don't know each other). But throwing out spec about symps could be helpful to them. and problem with spec is, once ppl start they rarely know when to stop.

Anyhow, my point was quite simply is that rigth now we don't have much to go on. And we won't at least for a few days. That's normal, just as lynching townies is normal, and we should not be making a huge deal out if it. But if I go on talking about this, i'll just start repeating what we've already discussed ad nauseum numerous times.

I am taking exception at the italicized text.

The point here is that speculating on scum will not do much that scum themselves didn't realize themselves if the hypothesis is accurate, and it will be clarified fairly soon (night 1) if we're wrong. The thing that hurts us, is prolongued speculation on town role distribution.

I also really, really don't like that you plan the next few days in as organised chaos. It seems you're pre-emptively taking a position that will more or less excuse you from jumping on the bandwagon for easy lynches, pressing and being wrong, and dismissing any early leads as 'early game chaos'. It is a good position for a symp to be maneuvering themselves into.

So as far as I am concerned, you can stick your generalisations where the rising sun doesn't shine, and get out of your high tree-house, good sir.

To be fair, there hasn't really been any speculation about town role distribution, beyond the suggestion that town may have roles. The majority of speculation has been on the distribution of scum and the reason for having two teams of town.

I do agree with your point about the early game chaos. The bland acceptance of town deaths is worrying, and while it may be usual to have town lynches early in the game, that doesn't mean we just accept that and don't try for anything more.

[Korbas]

Right, I need to leave a vote now, because I'll be asleep when day times out. Barghast's statement about lynching townies looks to me like a get-out-of-jail-free card for anyone leading lynches on townies, and looks to me like our best lead so far, so

Vote Barghast.

And now, goodnight all.

[Mockra]

hello all. Checking in and reading up.

[Korbas]

One last thing, because it just occurred to me, and then I'm really going to bed.

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 27 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

*snip*

This is a town vs. scum game, although it involves 3 clans. "Town" are players who are in the besieged castles of the Miura and Uesugi. Scum are the Fujiwari, who have besieged those castles.
Victory for scum is if they achieve parity/superiority in numbers. Victory for town is eliminate scum general(s) (killers).


*snip*

I take this underlined to mean general & killer are one and the same and interchangeable, at least in this game

Okay, good point. Don't know how I missed that.

So then what, 2 killers, 3 symps?

or 2 symps. WCS 3-4. This is one of those times where role spec is absolutely useless to town, unless you want to launch into prolonged "odds or evens rule" WIFOM spec. I mean, you won't know if you hit a symp anyways.

So then how do you propose to figure out who scum is? We have to come to some form of consensus on what we think the game mechanics are going to look like so that we have a good starting point.

well, usually it goes like this:

Day 1--lots of jokes, stupid votes, late Day 1 pileup, totally random lynch.

Day2--analysis of day 1 "train", more random voting, semi-random lynch.

Days 3-x: finder reveals, cases, some kind of logic., pissing contests, low poster hunts, eventual lynches. Town either wins or loses.

if you have any bright ideas, i'm all ears. Until I have reasons to believe otherwise, i'm treating this as scum v town. Golden rule is: in town V scum role spec only helps scum. so i'm not gonna talk about roles, and I WILL actively discourage others from talking about them.

Are you really hoping to get a "slip" from a roled player to tell you more?

Barghast says here that he believes speculation only helps scum, and so he will actively discourage it. However, he doesn't really follow this through, role speculation continues, and in fact Barghast himself was discussing this earlier in the game. It makes me wonder if he is in fact cautioning a teammate here, as he seems curiously emphatic, but then doesn't follow through.

[Jalan]

back now, so roughly 3.5 hrs left? yes/no/maybe?

I must review the profundity and/or foolishness of the last while

Seems Barghy is in the light, let's review

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 1. 3 hours and 28 minutes remaining

19 Players still alive: Alkend, Anthras, Barghast, Cast, D'riss, Desra, Eloth, Gait, Galain, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Korbas, Liosan, Mockra, Okaros, Rashan, Tellan, Trake

10 votes to lynch, 10 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Alkend ( Kalse )
1 Vote for Barghast ( Korbas )
1 Vote for D'riss ( Liosan )
1 Vote for Desra ( Cast )

Players not voted: Alkend, Anthras, Barghast, D'riss, Desra, Eloth, Gait, Galain, Hanas, Jalan, Mockra, Okaros, Rashan, Tellan, Trake

[Gait]

I could live with a Barghast vote, both out of a weak OMGUS and because he might be warning someone - but if he is a killer, why do it on thread, and if he is a symp, well, his CF is not going to prove it.

So I will roll with Kalse's "case" for now.

Vote Alkend

[Jalan]

and PS has had his coffee already

13 post since I left, hardly inspiring

[Barghast]

Korbas, on 30 July 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Gait, on 30 July 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, Barghy, looks like you semi-answered (presciently) while I was slowly posting so even though your flippant analysis of the last few games is mostly correct, I must point out that no one was talking about any roles except scum roles. Do you really think it helps scum to get a number of possible scenarios out the for contemplation? Unless we summarily adopt one and pursue it to the exclusion of all else, I say we are merely brainstorming.

more like last 70+ games.

and yes, throwing out number of killers doesn't do anything (unless they don't know each other). But throwing out spec about symps could be helpful to them. and problem with spec is, once ppl start they rarely know when to stop.

Anyhow, my point was quite simply is that rigth now we don't have much to go on. And we won't at least for a few days. That's normal, just as lynching townies is normal, and we should not be making a huge deal out if it. But if I go on talking about this, i'll just start repeating what we've already discussed ad nauseum numerous times.

I am taking exception at the italicized text.

The point here is that speculating on scum will not do much that scum themselves didn't realize themselves if the hypothesis is accurate, and it will be clarified fairly soon (night 1) if we're wrong. The thing that hurts us, is prolongued speculation on town role distribution.

I also really, really don't like that you plan the next few days in as organised chaos. It seems you're pre-emptively taking a position that will more or less excuse you from jumping on the bandwagon for easy lynches, pressing and being wrong, and dismissing any early leads as 'early game chaos'. It is a good position for a symp to be maneuvering themselves into.

So as far as I am concerned, you can stick your generalisations where the rising sun doesn't shine, and get out of your high tree-house, good sir.

To be fair, there hasn't really been any speculation about town role distribution, beyond the suggestion that town may have roles. The majority of speculation has been on the distribution of scum and the reason for having two teams of town.

I do agree with your point about the early game chaos. The bland acceptance of town deaths is worrying, and while it may be usual to have town lynches early in the game, that doesn't mean we just accept that and don't try for anything more.

you see, italics and underlined parts are generalization. one does not equal the other. I'm perfectly accepting of the fact that there WILL be town deaths. cuz when town runs around like headless chickens for the first few days, the math is simply too far against any other outcome.

this does not, in any way, shape or form suggest that I'm telling you not to look for scum and jump on to early lynches. No, ideally, everyone will come up with a case on someone else, and then we evaluate their pros and cons and pick the best one. Note the word "ideally", I just happen to be realistic, b/c i've played a shit ton of games, and I have an idea of how this shit usually goes down. but don't be putting words in my mouth.

[Barghast]

Korbas, on 30 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

One last thing, because it just occurred to me, and then I'm really going to bed.

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Desra, on 29 July 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 27 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

*snip*

This is a town vs. scum game, although it involves 3 clans. "Town" are players who are in the besieged castles of the Miura and Uesugi. Scum are the Fujiwari, who have besieged those castles.
Victory for scum is if they achieve parity/superiority in numbers. Victory for town is eliminate scum general(s) (killers).


*snip*

I take this underlined to mean general & killer are one and the same and interchangeable, at least in this game

Okay, good point. Don't know how I missed that.

So then what, 2 killers, 3 symps?

or 2 symps. WCS 3-4. This is one of those times where role spec is absolutely useless to town, unless you want to launch into prolonged "odds or evens rule" WIFOM spec. I mean, you won't know if you hit a symp anyways.

So then how do you propose to figure out who scum is? We have to come to some form of consensus on what we think the game mechanics are going to look like so that we have a good starting point.

well, usually it goes like this:

Day 1--lots of jokes, stupid votes, late Day 1 pileup, totally random lynch.

Day2--analysis of day 1 "train", more random voting, semi-random lynch.

Days 3-x: finder reveals, cases, some kind of logic., pissing contests, low poster hunts, eventual lynches. Town either wins or loses.

if you have any bright ideas, i'm all ears. Until I have reasons to believe otherwise, i'm treating this as scum v town. Golden rule is: in town V scum role spec only helps scum. so i'm not gonna talk about roles, and I WILL actively discourage others from talking about them.

Are you really hoping to get a "slip" from a roled player to tell you more?

Barghast says here that he believes speculation only helps scum, and so he will actively discourage it. However, he doesn't really follow this through, role speculation continues, and in fact Barghast himself was discussing this earlier in the game. It makes me wonder if he is in fact cautioning a teammate here, as he seems curiously emphatic, but then doesn't follow through.

a) I haven't been on much since that point

b ) the majority of "speculation" since then boiled down to people saying "I don't think there's anything wrong with Day 1 speculation", with occasioanlly adding "I thnk there's probably killers and symps". Given it's a TMDI 2 game, that statemtn seems obvious to me, and I won't be wasting my time hounding people for stating the obvious.

[Jalan]

Gait, on 30 July 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Barghast, on 29 July 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Jalan, on 29 July 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, Barghy, looks like you semi-answered (presciently) while I was slowly posting so even though your flippant analysis of the last few games is mostly correct, I must point out that no one was talking about any roles except scum roles. Do you really think it helps scum to get a number of possible scenarios out the for contemplation? Unless we summarily adopt one and pursue it to the exclusion of all else, I say we are merely brainstorming.

more like last 70+ games.

and yes, throwing out number of killers doesn't do anything (unless they don't know each other). But throwing out spec about symps could be helpful to them. and problem with spec is, once ppl start they rarely know when to stop.

Anyhow, my point was quite simply is that rigth now we don't have much to go on. And we won't at least for a few days. That's normal, just as lynching townies is normal, and we should not be making a huge deal out if it. But if I go on talking about this, i'll just start repeating what we've already discussed ad nauseum numerous times.

I am taking exception at the italicized text.

The point here is that speculating on scum will not do much that scum themselves didn't realize themselves if the hypothesis is accurate, and it will be clarified fairly soon (night 1) if we're wrong. The thing that hurts us, is prolongued speculation on town role distribution.

I also really, really don't like that you plan the next few days in as organised chaos. It seems you're pre-emptively taking a position that will more or less excuse you from jumping on the bandwagon for easy lynches, pressing and being wrong, and dismissing any early leads as 'early game chaos'. It is a good position for a symp to be maneuvering themselves into.

So as far as I am concerned, you can stick your generalisations where the rising sun doesn't shine, and get out of your high tree-house, good sir.

I agree with most of this. He does seem to be laying the groundwork for soothing us when things go in a counterproductive manner, and excusing certain behaviors often associated with scum.