[nacht]

I suspect that there something more to the story of Sandalath and Phaed.
Superficially, Phaed is real bitch and she got what she deserved. We rarely get her POV though but only see her from the perspective of Nimander (and the perspective of Phaed within Nimander)

We see her first in HoC

Quote

One of the new Tiste Andii moved to the three noisily dying Edur and unceremoniously slit their throats. When finished, she raised her gaze to study Apsalar for a long moment.

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'The search for loyalty and honour', Darist had said, with a sneer, whilst Phaed—the young woman who had shown mercy to Apsalar's victims—bound his wounds.

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'No they ain't. See the tallest one there, with the long white hair. His name is Nimander Golit. And that pretty woman beside him, that's Phaed, his first daughter. All seven of 'em are cousins, sisters, brothers, but it's Nimander who leads, since he's the oldest. Nimander says he is the first son of the Son.'

Then in BH, we see that Phaed is the daughter of Envy and Nimander

Quote

'Ah, you're not completely blind, then. You can see, can't you? Different mothers, for some of 'em. And one of those mothers wasn't no Tiste Andii, was she? Look at Phaed—' 'I can only see the back of her head.' 'Whatever. I looked at her, and I asked her that very same question you just asked me.' 'What?' '"Who was your mother?"' 'Mine?' 'And she smiled – and I nearly died, Banaschar, and I mean it. Nearly died. Bursting blood vessels in my brain, toppling over nearly died. Anyway, she told me, and it wasn't no Tiste Andii kind of name, and from the looks of her I'd say the other half was human, but then again, can you really tell with these things? Not really.' 'No, really, what was the name?' 'Lady Envy, who used to know Anomander Rake himself, and got her revenge taking his son as a lover. Messy, eh? But if she was anything like that Phaed there, with that smile

Well that makes Phaed (and Nimander) part Azathanai. Phaed being even-more Azathanai than Nimander. (because of Incest, yuck)
Later, Phaed as part of Nimander has quite an important role in TTH and CG.
Nimander himself seems to be quite indecisive in many situations and Phaed actually helps him in several situations.


Now, coming to Sandalath, she herself is quite broken and is actually given life by the Crippled God in MT.

Quote

Something with a voice. These are restless seas indeed. I had not thought my questing would prove so . . . easy. True, you are not human, but you will do. You will do.

and then in CG, Sandalath almost destroys Kharkanas until Phaed takes her out of the picture.


Is it possible that Sandalath was an agent of the CG and Phaed actually tried to kill her early to prevent Sandalath from causing all the trouble.

This post has been edited by nacht: 10 July 2013 - 08:33 PM

[Abyss]

Sandy looses her shit in TCG because being back in Kharkanas reminds her of the trauma she went thru when she was a hostage there.<br><br>Up until then she was quite stable for a dead Andii ressurrected by the CG. <br><br>Phaed was pretty much always sociopathic. The description of her'mercy' on Avalii was, at least in retrospect, ironic i suspect .

[Kanese S's]

Phaed be crazy all messed up inside. That's why she's a murderous sociopath.


Hold on just a minute, so Phaed is Nimander's daughter by Envy.

Am I misremembering things, or is Envy Nimander's mother?

[nacht]

 Kanese S, on 10 July 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Phaed be crazy all messed up inside. That's why she's a murderous sociopath.


Hold on just a minute, so Phaed is Nimander's daughter by Envy.

Am I misremembering things, or is Envy Nimander's mother?

Yes, Phaed is both Nimander's daughter and sister. Envy does some truly crazy things when she is envious.

[nacht]

 Abyss, on 10 July 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Sandy looses her shit in TCG because being back in Kharkanas reminds her of the trauma she went thru when she was a hostage there.

Up until then she was quite stable for a dead Andii ressurrected by the CG.

Phaed was pretty much always sociopathic. The description of her'mercy' on Assail was, at least in retrospect, ironic i suspect .

This would be the straight read. I dont disagree with this. I just think there is more than that meets the eye (and of course it could be me reading between the lines while waiting for the FoL)

The thing that is interesting is the Azathanai angle. Both Nimander and Phaed are grandchildren of Draconus and Olar Ethil. That would make them part Azathanai.
After Malice dies, she come back in some kind of a spirit form and something similar happens to Phaed in TCG.

In Nimander's case he is also draconean.

From a character development point of view, SE just presents Phaed simplistically as cold hearted, evil bitch which is kind of unlike SE

This post has been edited by nacht: 11 July 2013 - 12:23 AM

[Kanese S's]

 nacht, on 11 July 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

 Kanese S, on 10 July 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Phaed be crazy all messed up inside. That's why she's a murderous sociopath.


Hold on just a minute, so Phaed is Nimander's daughter by Envy.

Am I misremembering things, or is Envy Nimander's mother?

Yes, Phaed is both Nimander's daughter and sister. Envy does some truly crazy things when she is envious.

Ew.

As much as I want to banish the thought, I'm kinda curious about how that went down. Not the gory details, just... sure, Envy is really sexy, but how did she convince Nimander to fuck his own mother? Unless, of course, Nimander didn't know that Envy was his mother. Maybe she dumped him off at Uncle Andarist's place as soon as the kid was weaned?




Also, most importantly, what are the implications of this in regards to Phaed's nipple color?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Theory/wild speculation

Something crazy happens to Sand while a hostage of house dracons. Knowing Envy is there and already has messed with Osserc and others (along with Spite) it wouldnt surprise if she was also responsible for whatever befalls Sand.

Whatever she does, could get her in some serious shit with Draconus, who already is aware of his daughters' penchant for psychotic behavior. Phaed's desire to kill Sandalath could be from some trickle down memory or mental manipulation via Envy in some way.

Probably not. Phaed most likely just fell off the wacky family tree and hit all the branches. Living a life of death couldnt have been good for that already fragile emotional state.

[Abyss]

Envy isnt Nimander's mother. She's Phaed's.
And iirc, there's a comment by Nimander somewhere that suggests Phaed may have lied or even unintentionally misled the Malazans. Something about the heads on the Silanda including their parents or a parent.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yeah but still.


There is a lot of talk about parents there. Some figurative, some literal. Its right before Nimander stops Phaed from killing Sandalath. But he does say:

Quote

Some secrets were impossible to keep. The truth of that ship, for one. The Silanda’s lines were known, were profoundly familiar. The ship that had taken their parents on a pathetic journey in search of the one whom every Tiste Andii of Drift Avalii called Father. Anomander Rake. Anomander of the silver hair, the dragon’s eyes. Didn’t find him, alas. Never the chance to plead for help, to ask all the questions that needed asking, to stab fingers in accusation, condemnation, damnation. All that, yes yes.
Take to your oars, brave parents, there is more sea to cross.
-
RG Ch. 20

and then:

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..and of course there is no lock binding the latch. No reason for it. Save one murderous child whose mother’s head stares at canvas on a pitching deck. The one child who went to see that for herself.

So you are probably right, of course. Still, Eriksion vacillates wildly with his literal interpretations of the words mother, father and children, as well his rearview mirror of history and genealogies. I guess that's half the frustration fun.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 11 July 2013 - 12:08 PM

[nacht]

Of course, it is possible that this whole conversation between Braven Tooth and Banaschar is disinformation spread by Phaed.
Still this conversation serves no purpose except to provide us information about the Tisti Anii ragtag group that has so many adventures that we readers follow. For SE to spread this kind of disinformation early on would seem to be quite malicious

Quote

'No they ain't. See the tallest one there, with the long white hair. His name is Nimander Golit. And that pretty woman beside him, that's Phaed, his first daughter. All seven of 'em are cousins, sisters, brothers, but it's Nimander who leads, since he's the oldest. Nimander says he is the first son of the Son.' 'The what?' 'The Son of Darkness, Banaschar. Know who that is? That's Anomander Rake. Look at 'em, they're all Rake's brood – grandchildren mostly, except for Nimander, who's father to a lot of 'em, but not all. Now, maybe someone's got a hate on for foreigners – you really think that someone would be stupid enough to go after the whelps of Anomander Rake?'

Quote

'Whatever. I looked at her, and I asked her that very same question you just asked me.'
'What?'
'"Who was your mother?"'
'Mine?'
'And she smiled – and I nearly died, Banaschar, and I mean it. Nearly died. Bursting blood vessels in my brain, toppling over nearly died. Anyway, she told me, and it wasn't no Tiste Andii kind of name, and from the looks of her I'd say the other half was human, but then again, can you really tell with these things?
Not really.'
'No, really, what was the name?'
'Lady Envy, who used to know Anomander Rake himself, and got her revenge taking his son as a lover. Messy, eh?

In RG, Nimander refers to Phaed as his sister.

Quote

Nimander Golit could see the young woman he called his sister from the corner of his eye, and he wondered yet again at the source of Phaed's unquenchable malice, which had been there, as far as he could recall, from her very earliest days. Empathy did not exist within her, and in its absence something cold now thrived, promising a kind of brutal glee at every victory, real or imagined, obvious or subtle.

Bottom line is at the end of the story, Phaed does a lot more to help and Sand does a lot more damage. But in our perceptions Phaed is an evil bitch and Sand is a matronly saint.

Actually I cant think of much good Sand did and her resurrection is quite strange (how the heck do you rebuild a body from decomposed minutiae spread over a sea. This is quite an achievement by the Crippled God to do this in Mael's dominion). In hindsight, the purpose of Sand in the story seems to be to a writing device to give us somebody who acts as a Kharkanas tour guide and give a lead in to her storyline in FoD and create the Orfantal storyline (while Orfantal had a very minor role in the main series)

And to add to the confusion, by what claim did Sand become the Queen of Kharkanas with the ability to command Silanah.

This post has been edited by nacht: 11 July 2013 - 03:00 PM

[Abyss]

 nacht, on 11 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

...
... by what claim did Sand become the Queen of Kharkanas with the ability to command Silanah.

She had royal blood.

[tiam]

 Abyss, on 14 July 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

 nacht, on 11 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

...
... by what claim did Sand become the Queen of Kharkanas with the ability to command Silanah.

She had royal blood.

Royal or noble blood? As a Drukorlat would it be royal wasnt the Issgin the last of the old royalty or was it those Shake people

My FOD skills are waning.

[Abyss]

 Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 14 July 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

...Royal or noble blood? ...

Royal enough to sit her Assii down on the throne and order an Elder Eleint around.

[MattK3]

I found that part in Reaper's Gale disgusting. Not only is it some of the worst, most tiresome writing in the book and therefore the whole series (that inner monologue of Nimander, the turgid descriptions of the night), but it is a prime example of Erikson's hypocrisy, cruelty and self-important, petty posturing. But as usual, the latter mixture is received quite positively by all kinds of readers and makes them want to be part of that "cool" posturing toughness.

Not only do we know Phaed only superficially and mostly through others' eyes, but there are loads of characters who are far worse inside and out (and who we get to know far more than we might want) and others who might be more less the same, actually, as the archetype of Phaed (usually - supposedly - sociopathic girls are portrayed as "funny") - not only that, but her end was cruel and disgusting. Taking several steps, with serious bodily harm and drawn-out suffering, with mercy denied, or "thrown out of the window", with posturing self-importance which sounds like Erikson's own (when he gets into a moralistic cramp), the same as all the forced - and unproven, unconvincing setting up of her supposedly being SOOO bad (which is absurd even theory, with others like the Chancellor, Karos Invictad, his lackey etc.). Which ironically resorts to the pathetic tactic of displaying her as "pathetic" (again to encourage agreement by feelings of petty hate and self-importance in the reader), and so humiliate her. Honestly this part is baffling shit (on any level), it doesn't even serve any purpose. It is the most annoying distraction simply on a structural or prose level, and has the worst of Erikson's traits (even some pointless sexual sideglances and musings).

This post has been edited by MattK3: 28 May 2019 - 08:09 AM