[worry]

It was a whole kennel full of Ramsey's hunting dogs, who are specifically trained to eat people.

[worry]

The fight itself though, yah, it wasn't the best coreographed the show has ever done, that's true.

[QuickTidal]

Ramsay wasn't even wearing a shirt...all the iron born needed was a well thrown dagger.

The fight is a bit silly.

[Abyss]

The fight itself was pretty weak, but Ramsay charging into the melee with his shirt off and his lover's bloody claw marks all over him was badass, even so.

[amphibian]

Cause, on 12 May 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

I don't get this at all. Your friend has a personal experience that many people don't and I understand her feelings completely. That said being offended does not make her right. In my country Rape is an ever present danger for woman. They are at risk from their fathers, husbands, uncles, friends and complete strangers. Rape is a fact of life. All the more so in ancient times when sacking a city meant the right to rape anything that moved in most mens minds. This is not my clumsy attempt to defend the shows right to use rape as plot point or theme or just scenery. The show does not need to be defended. Martin and HBO may make the show they want and people may watch or not.

You missed my points:

1) the show is on the verge of overusing sexual assault within its story , having it occur without story-based justification, whether that story is to be found in the books or from the show's own parallel track. It's a time filler now and not a serious act that changes things for characters.

2) it's entirely valid to criticize the show for this because sexual assault is serious and complex. My friend quit because she felt that sexual assault became a cheaply used thrill getter and the show was already far along the way of making every female character face this, which is different than what the books do. The showrunners have been made aware of this, although through the sept scene, and maybe they'll improve things going forwards.

3) I don't think the sept scene is where the show tips over the line, it's the Karl/Meera attempt scene. The showrunners had any number of things to do with the time due to that not being a book scene, being entirely a show scene, and they chose that way of doing the scene.

4) GRRM can do what he wants, but it's really a good thing if he's not throwing away chunks of his audience over something like the frequency of featuring sexual assault in his books and his attitude about that.

Erikson knew that certain scenes in the later Malaxan books would set off similar reactions, but he wrote them and the preceding and subsequent words with compassion evident everywhere. That goes a long way towards keeping audience trust, especially when there's no "trigger" warnings.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 12 May 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

3) I don't think the sept scene is where the show tips over the line, it's the Karl/Meera attempt scene. The showrunners had any number of things to do with the time due to that not being a book scene, being entirely a show scene, and they chose that way of doing the scene.

This is the point that sold me on your comment Amph. You're right. Since the scene isn't present in the source material, they could have done any number of things. Karl didn't need to be a raper, he could have just been a murderer, so it definitely could have played out differently without loss of context. Meera could have just as easily been threatened with death (not rape) and the affect would have been the same...and had they wanted to be REALLY progressive they could have had Karl hold Jojen under threat instead and have Meera have Jojen's reaction.

[Abyss]

I took the point of the scene as to raise the threat level sufficient to prompt Bran to go full Hodor. Karl and co were established as rapists and scum back in S1 and their conduct was pretty much in character.


Fair comment it was gratuitous in that a bit of thought could have accomplished the same thing without the rape threat. It was pretty much the obvious route.

[Garak]

I thought the episode was pretty meh - with the exception of the ending. Watching Tyrion rant away like that was brilliant. Whose idea was it to use Shae anyway? Because that person should have guessed what this betrayal would trigger (which is why I'm assuming it's Cersei). I've read the books (and I know where Tyrion finds Shae eventually) but I can't remember. Still Dinklage gave a great speech there, you could feel Tyrion's sudden hatred for all those people who had turned their backs on him, especially his father.

This post has been edited by Garak: 13 May 2014 - 05:00 PM

[worry]

I'm pretty sure it's Tywin. It's clear from the convo with Jaime that the Wall plan was well in his mind even before Jaime's "bargain" -- which basically just fell right in Tywin's lap. So the assurance that Tyrion would not actually be executed (which seems more Tywin than Cersei) -- along with death threats to herself I imagine -- helped compel show-Shae's willingness to lie. Book-Shae is a little bit more ambiguous and maybe fits the "woman scorned" thing more readily, but was likely under duress as well.

[Garak]

If it was Tywin's idea (very probable I guess) then he just sunk his own boat. That man truly knows nothing about his own son.

I also like the interactions between Tyrion and Jaime - they are complete opposites but the brothers get along well. I mean Jaime is the only immediate family member who's always on Tyrion's side. I like that, it makes you warm up to the guy and then you recall he pushed Bran out the window.

[Abyss]

Seemed pretty clear to me Tywin anticipated Jaime's offer and was planning for it. Cersei's hatred of Tyrion wouldn't be enough to ake the trial happen if Tywin hadn't wanted it to.


The fail was in going ahead with one step too far by calling Shae as a witness, prompting Tyrion to derail the whole plan in favor of stabbytime. Shae was wholly unnecessary the way the trial was going and with Jaime having cut a deal and told Tyrion to shut up, so Tywin going ahead with her just to humiliate Tyrion nicely lays the groundwork for what to come.

[MTS]

Just to bring the conversation back to an ep from a couple of weeks ago for a sec, I was just re-reading Storm of Swords and Martin stated Craster's sons were the Others right after the mutiny at Craster's Keep. So it wasn't really 'new' content at all as far as the books were concerned.

Quote

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”
“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”
“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.

[A Demon Llama!]

Whatever book this season is spoiler.

Spoiler

Didnt Tyrion's father interecept Shae before she got on the boat and have her killed? Then that is what led Tyrion to kill him in turn? Was there even a trial in the books? I don't remember. I wonder what Tyrions reason for killing his father will be now that she betrayed him kinda on her own accord. What's up with her doing that anyway?

[amphibian]

There was a trial in the books. However, they've changed things around a little bit and sped it up considerably.

Regarding Shae, Tyrion and the reasoning behind her testimony, we don't know what the show has done same/different yet. That is yet to come.

[Traveller]

A Demon Llama!, on 15 May 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Whatever book this season is spoiler.

Spoiler

Didnt Tyrion's father interecept Shae before she got on the boat and have her killed? Then that is what led Tyrion to kill him in turn? Was there even a trial in the books? I don't remember. I wonder what Tyrions reason for killing his father will be now that she betrayed him kinda on her own accord. What's up with her doing that anyway?

Yes there was a trial. Yes Shae appeared in it. And I think, that Tyrions last straw was finding

Spoiler

her in his hypocritical fathers bed

Which is why he did what he did.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 15 May 2014 - 06:29 AM

[QuickTidal]

Tyrion's speech makes that whole episode. Hands down. Dinklage is a treasure, his acting is just brilliant!

Here it is again, with an altered ending.



SIDENOTE: Apparently, this was Dinklage being silly on set...and Coster-Waldau was dnacing around too (though we don't see it here)

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 May 2014 - 10:32 AM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I loved this last episode, although Asha's raid was silly and poorly done.

One thing about the show that they haven't really done is deposit the "Tywin Lannister shits gold" phrase amongst the characters. They really hit that in the books and that made what's to come have a bit more impact, although I won't really complain about that yet because they haven't got there in the show and they may choose to go a different route, which would ensure a completely different - although just as necessary - whiny complaint.

As far as Shae's loyalty to Tyrion, in the books, I never felt that she was in love with him or devoted in any way. In fact, I always thought she was planted with Tyrion by Tywin to spy on him since the beginning. I could definitely be wrong, and there could be proof against that, but she always seemed manipulative for a reason. I guess GRRM kept it vague, but I liked thinking on it that way. I also would have liked some flashbacks in the show about Tyrion remembering Tysha so that could have been built up a little better, but again, they might choose a different direction with that whole thing.

[Terez]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 15 May 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

One thing about the show that they haven't really done is deposit the "Tywin Lannister shits gold" phrase amongst the characters. They really hit that in the books and that made what's to come have a bit more impact, although I won't really complain about that yet because they haven't got there in the show and they may choose to go a different route, which would ensure a completely different - although just as necessary - whiny complaint.

I thought there had been at least one mention of it, and it could be that they want to drop a reference closer to the event so that show-watchers won't forget it, but the revelation that Tywin is broke kind of takes the fun out of it.

[Abyss]

Iirc, in the books Shae doesn't have nearly the connection w Tyrion she does in the show. He still tries to send her away, and she still ends up a witness at the trial, but the betrayal is less about love and more about loyalty as i remember reading it, tho later books suggest Tyrion was way more connected to her than he seemed to be. Or he just regrets what he did.

[A Demon Llama!]

Alright, makes sense. Thanks.