[Abyss]

All good, but I have to give love for the addition of Jaime training w Bronn.

[Terez]

That was something I couldn't remember—I thought maybe he trained with Bronn once or twice before starting with Ilyn Payne. It's been a while since I read the books.

[Garak]

Is it me or are they trying to make sure this show always has a giant douche in the plot? Ramsay is getting more screen time and I swear I hate him as much as I hate Joffrey.

[Ceda Cicero]

Garak, on 14 April 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Is it me or are they trying to make sure this show always has a giant douche in the plot? Ramsay is getting more screen time and I swear I hate him as much as I hate Joffrey.

I don't necessarily think that line of reasoning applies strictly to the show; I've always told people that Martin introduced Ramsay in the books because he (a) needed to fill the Joffrey vacuum and ( perversely wanted to see if he could top Joffrey in terms of giant doucheness.

[LinearPhilosopher]

[worry]

There's always been a double parallel between Tywin/Joffrey (I know there's a generation gap) and Roose/Ramsey, and how geography and social position has shaped these fairly similar characters.

[worry]

I don't remember the timeline but in the books Bronn kinda falls up the ladder (not that he isn't talented, but he obv has the skills and bearing of a sellsword, so it's kind of wry commentary on nobility) and eventually he no longer needs the employ of Tyrion. They don't become enemies but it kind of mirrors book-Shae as (possible) opportunist who turns away from Tyrion, and one of the reasons Bronn isn't there for the trial-by-combat this time. So it still will probably happen in the show too, but slightly different.

[Jakovasaurus]

Just got done watching the 1st episode of season 4. Did some significant event occur in last night's episode?

[Tapper]

Briar King, on 14 April 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Yes yes yes!!! 4 yr of waiting paid off!

I didn't get the Bronn and J bit since they seemed to make a point towards Payne in the opening scenes for S4, i hontestly thought last week would ev paired up J & P.

The actor playing Illyn Payne apparently has a (terminal?) disease.

[Terez]

That really sucks! I guess Bronn is a good enough substitute, though, and he can easily change his loyalties from Tyrion to Jamie and nothing gets out of whack.

I read an article that makes a good point: older Tommen makes for important plot changes. Cersei as Queen Regent made a lot more sense with a much-younger Tommen; this one is almost as old as Joff was when he became king.

[blackzoid]

worry, on 14 April 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

There's always been a double parallel between Tywin/Joffrey (I know there's a generation gap) and Roose/Ramsey, and how geography and social position has shaped these fairly similar characters.

IMO Roose has more in parallel with Joffrey and Ramsey then the average viewer might think, whereas Tywin is usually all business and more "human".
I think the order of sociopaths in GOT so far is:
Robin (the kid in the Eyrie)
Joffrey
Ramsey
Roose (he's old enough to realise that you need to pretend to be human in order to survive the game of thrones)

I loved that Roose seemed a little bit cautious of Ramsey in the last ep, whereas Tywin has always been so obviously dismissive of Joffrey.

[Jakovasaurus]

[worry]

That was pretty radical.

[worry]

They really whiffed it on the Jaime/Cersei scene though. I imagine it was written as a "these two broken desperate people usually get turned on by crossing boundaries and here's their late-ASOS broken desperate version of it" scene but that did not come across at all, it was just plain ugly. Unless they were really going for conveying a rape, which is just inexplicable and just as gross.

[Abyss]

Liked the Dany speech at the end, but it needed a dragon flyover.

[Terez]

worry, on 21 April 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

They really whiffed it on the Jaime/Cersei scene though. I imagine it was written as a "these two broken desperate people usually get turned on by crossing boundaries and here's their late-ASOS broken desperate version of it" scene but that did not come across at all, it was just plain ugly. Unless they were really going for conveying a rape, which is just inexplicable and just as gross.

Yeah, agreed that was strange. I thought they were trying to make Cersei sympathetic again, but I read somewhere that it was just bad editing. It was supposed to be more obvious that she was into it; you do get snatches of that in the scene, with her getting into the kissing, but overall it comes across like a rape scene.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I realise it's a completely futile gesture but I'm done with the show. Turning yet another consensual sex scene into rape for shock factor (despite breaking an arc you already accelerated) is just the final step too far. I've already been a bit uneasy with the interpretations of some of the female characters (Melisandre being the main one) but I can't get angry and feel conflicted about it if I cease watching it. Ho hum.

[worry]

I'm still banking on the hope that the scene as written was better than the scene as depicted/directed/edited (which isn't an excuse, it was still abhorrent to see and Benioff/Weiss should have known better when they saw it), because there was so much good in terms of depicting the ugliness of patriarchy, like the Tywin/Tommen/Cersei scene, the farmer/daughter/"virtue" scene, and the Sam/Gilly paternal "good guy"-ism. All of it was so sensible that I have to think the Jaime/Cersei thing was a fluke of the director.

[Terez]

The ASOIAF group on Facebook (for people who have read all the books) is really blowing up about it. That's my only exposure to the masses, but I have a feeling that everyone who read the books reacted the same way. Hopefully, it will be a lesson learned for the producers.

[amphibian]

Isn't there some fairly supportable theory that Jaime really did rape Cersei there?

I think it's based in that it's the last time they hook up after re-connecting when Jaime gets back hand-less, Cersei goes off the deep end afterwards and we see the entire thing from Jaime's viewpoint (which would probably slant things to a more innocent interpretation than how Cersei took it)?