Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
So you did, and your response (so people can see, you just know some will be too lazy to click the link):
Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:
Maybe there'd be better if people were bothered to actually play.
It's great getting to hop onto a train that is simultaneously decried though, just cause no one else has presented anything better for you to do, lots of info for town there.
Are you having a go at me or having a go at people in general? I should also remind you that one of the reasons there was so little else to say is because you yourself dominated a large part of day 1. You often have a way of dismissing others' 'pointless' posting whilst at the same time calling for more posting. I know you would say that you mean more content-full posting, but there are times when what you consider to be content-less is not judged with the same yardstick as others use.
It's a general problem, but I was particularly focusing on you. Jumping on a train while saying it's terrible is pretty similar to Kara's "I'm gonna vote him, even though I think he will CF inno", which got deserved heat.
I find it kind of funny that me being abrasive on day 1 (pretty standard tactic to try and get information on thread), is apparently bad for thread information. Day 1 was a bit slow, but without people actually trying to start cases/arguments, it can be totally stagnant. I feel what I was calling for was pretty obvious. Everyone has a standard for what counts as contribution, most people call posts out that don't match it. I'm quite happy to justify why I think a post is pointless, and have done so throughout when necessary.
If we go simply by post count alone, it's pretty easy to post a lot without having any content, and no more useful than posting nothing. People who post without posting content need called out the same way low posters do.
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
Trying to play both sides, no. Hovering on the fence, yes. I liked the idea of potential signalling there, but I didn't understand why Tiam was trying to dress it up as more than that when they came to make their case. That's the part that made me wary.
[...]
As you've noticed (and further point out below) that is the course my posts take. As they do every game, whether I be town or scum. I like to often prod with my questions before, if ever, getting down to what I really think. In this instance, Tiamatha actually realised the train of my thoughts anyway, and addressed it in their response to me.
Yeah, my problem isn't so much with any one post (though I do think that your response to Atrahal is maybe the most notable example, as seeming a bit off), as with the general style. Hovering on the fence is not unreasonable, liking some parts of cases is not unreasonable. But it makes me suspicious when it becomes such a pattern. After a while it becomes noticeable when someone has very few issues where they aren't on the fence.
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
Someone asked a question, I answered it with what I think. You yourself have often listed various options, permutations, and variables to opinions and events. I just don't see how this particular post is striking in that regard. Though again, you do have a lovely habit of calling posts purposeless
My point isn't that it seems purposeless, my point is that it's purpose doesn't really seem to be to help town.
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
Edit: This is a continuation of my response to Shadow.
Quote
Partly this also blurs into a language thing.
I mean:
Korlat, on 07 June 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:
I appreciate you taking my suspicions of Cast and seeing where else you can take it, Atrahal. The 'my boss is intownso...' right after Galayn's post is something I missed.
However, I see one immediate problem with you linking Cast and Shadow together, and that's the fact that Cast immediately went after Shadow and voted for them as soon as they got on today.
The language in the first line is just strange. It's like something out of a shitty self-help book about how to be friendly. You make absolutely sure to find something to compliment, even while he's completely misinterpreted/misunderstood you, and while you're shooting down his point in the second line. It's artificially balanced, very non-confrontational, and gives the impression of trying to play both sides, stay in everyone's good books.
Hmm, I make 'absolutely sure to compliment', or that's simply the way in which I write? It's not artifically balanced, because I did appreciate Atrahal looking over Cast after I brought it up, because I wasn't sure anyone would pay attention. But I didn't immediately jump on board with what they were saying nonetheless, because I thought there were problems there and I pointed them out. As a point, I always remain non-confrontational unless I'm sure about something - I don't see the need to jump down throats unless I can do it from a very strong position. I guess Venge just didn't rub off on me.
Meh, this is starting to get a tad meta. Bringing up something as "how you write" and later "how you generally play" is not really a useful defence. The only response it leaves me is that I do not think it is normal play for someone to play such an overly agreeable fashion as to actually write "I appreciate you doing xyz", and I cannot remember anyone striking me as playing in such a way as the norm.
I feel it is very artificially balanced, because you are essentially shooting down his actual point, but spend half the post on how great it is that he responded.
This is mafia. Since when do we make sure to tell someone who graced us with a response how much we appreciated it because we were so insecure when putting it out there, and what if no one had payed attention, or even worse, said a nasty thing, oh we might just have cried, but they didn't, did they, they actually paid attention, they even responded, I wonder if this means they like us, oh I do hope so!
The above is a little exaggerated, but I hope you get my point.
Being non confrontational is great and all, but that's kind of different from never pushing on anything.
If you make it clear that the pressure you're putting on isn't something you're actually that bothered about, then it doesn't work so well as pressure does it. Which is pretty much how I feel about your "prodding" of Hanas. Just calling it "prodding" instead of "a case" doesn't really change this. What's the point in prodding if it's clear that nothing is going to come of it?
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
No see, now you're confusing a fact with your own opinion - something which you do have a habit of doing. I chose Hanas because his posting rang bells for me, and I wanted to try and find out why. It was also putting forward another person (something which you claim to be in favour of). And moreover, do you now disagree that Hanas does not continue to seem suspicious (albeit for different reasons to when I first brought them up)?
For me, it often works like this, especially early game: I get a vibe or suspicion off someone; I then examine their posts to see why that may have been; only once I have done so can I attempt to say either way whether there was something really there worth pushing on, whether it continues to be just a feeling, or whether I was simply wrong to think that way; But, in whatever case, I will put my thoughts on thread, because someone else might be able to spot something I missed from that - either to back up my suspicions, or to discredit them and allow us to move on.
Sure I agree Hanas continues to be suspicious.
And sure, I'm in favour of putting forward your suspicions.
Again it comes back to being a recurring pattern. If you put your thoughts on thread, without really pushing hard on them, so others can comment and take it on, that's great. If you almost never do anything else, it's less of a likeable trait.
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
Ok, from now on after an inconclusive analysis, I will make sure to say TOWN or SCUM, for your benefit, even if that means absolutely nothing in reality
Similarly, it's just a question of how often you are inconclusive as opposed to how often you actually push something.
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
Quote
And posts like this are just trying way to hard to look helpful:
Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:
Alright, I really have to go again.
Shall I place my vote now, or shall I leave it if there's enough people around to do it later?
He was L-2, with like 30 hours left.
Uh, looking helpful, or actually being helpful? I said that I would not be able to be around much longer, so it was either place my vote then or potentially not at all (I somehow doubted that you would all wait until I came back again
). And, actually, come to think of it, had I not said anything along those lines, I can just see you coming up with something like, 'ooh, why did you ignore the Galayn train, Korlat?'
I don't think it's actually being helpful. You say you doubted we'd wait till you were back, so what was it helping if there was evidently no need to help the lynch along? Indeed, there were enough people on at that point that we easily could have lynched him were you there or not.
The last sentence is silly and you know it. Had you not commented on the issue, I would've asked why you ignored it, but you'd already commented on it.
Had you just left, I would hardly have said "Holy fuck, we've 29 hours left, why isn't he checking if we need his vote?!"
Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:
I would say that I had a largely absent day one. I think you're being disingenuous about my contribution. It is like me saying, "Shadow, what contribution have you made exactly? I mean, if people didn't keep bringing you up, would you be even noticeable? What cases have you mad that people have followed you on, or strongly agreed with you on, despite all your posts?"
I can give numerous examples of actually trying to put pressure on people, from the very start. The fact that I have had pressure does not explain away most of the pressure I have been putting on elsewhere, any more than the fact that you have had very little justifies you putting on very little.
Hanas 
Help
