[Denul]

Anthras, on 20 May 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Personally I think you're all scum and I'm the only inno.

I'm tossing up the value of voting someone for scummy behaviour (ie not helpful to town - Anthras and/or Spite) but I also feel like one of Kilava and Ruse is scum leading thread.

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Also I feel like there's something off about Trake's reaction to pretty much everything Ruse says. It's defensive and weird. Especially combined with the sucking up to Kilava.

Why are you siding with Ruse over Kilava here? Christ, how does Kilava keep getting heat for playing the game properly and coherently? Ruse may have similar game presence (though never when it is most needed), but he's been trying to direct the thread with nonsensical cases. Trake may seem somewhat defensive, but he really should, lest someone else buy into Ruse's logic.

Vote Ruse


I'm sure I'll need to respond to some other posts directed at me. I'll get to them in a few minutes.

This is either poor reading comprehension or attempted misdirection. I'm not actually commenting on Kilava at all (other than to say I think that there's a possibility that they could be scum leading the thread, which I also attribute to Ruse). What I'm actually commenting on in the last line is Trake's behaviour, which doesn't actually reflect on Kilava's play.

Interesting that you construe that as an attack though.

[Denul]

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Very much in the same boat.

I just can't see how we can ignore something like a no lynch that happens because one person fucks off leaving their vote elsewhere and another chooses not to hammer himself. If we lose because town decided to play like that, there's sod all to be done about it, we have to follow up the strongest indication of scum, and at the moment, my opinion is that the no lynch is the most sound evidence we've had by a clear margin.

You and Anthras BOTH screwed around not wanting to vote for me until it looked like there was no choice. You finally swap to me, Anthras claims he didn't make it back in time but probably just didn't want to be the hammer, Monok drops the potential hammer vote a while after the day ended and said he didn't realize it was too late, and you go all out trying to convince me to kill myself. That entire scenario was messed up, and I'm the least worrisome of it, and you're focusing on me? You're doing a complete 180 from how you played the game at first and now. Are you so close to your win that you're willing to keep saying it was the wrong play to not kill myself? I'm not messing with you when I say I honestly can't believe you're trying to convince me I should have killed myself, when that single action could save the game for town. You've changed the way you've played and thought here near the end. I don't like it, Kilava. I wanted to trust you the whole game. I helped sway the lynch to Kalse over you because I felt you were more likely town, but now I just can't trust you. I'm hoping we lynch you, but if we don't and we still lynch a killer and you are part of that, then maybe I could believe you, but you could always throw your partner under the bus. We should of listened to everyone else that worried over you and are now dead.

Even if Kilava does turn out to be scum, you still should have hammered yourself. If you turn out to be scum I'll understand, but if you're inno Imma fucking pissed. As a direct result of your refusal to contribute to your lynch we now have to consider that you may be scum on D-Day. If you're innocent you're just a distraction during the most important game in the day. As town you're supposed to do what's best for town, even if that means contributing to leaving the game early yourself.

[Pallid]

Denul, on 21 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

You and Anthras BOTH screwed around not wanting to vote for me until it looked like there was no choice. You finally swap to me, Anthras claims he didn't make it back in time but probably just didn't want to be the hammer, Monok drops the potential hammer vote a while after the day ended and said he didn't realize it was too late, and you go all out trying to convince me to kill myself. That entire scenario was messed up, and I'm the least worrisome of it, and you're focusing on me? You're doing a complete 180 from how you played the game at first and now. Are you so close to your win that you're willing to keep saying it was the wrong play to not kill myself? I'm not messing with you when I say I honestly can't believe you're trying to convince me I should have killed myself, when that single action could save the game for town. You've changed the way you've played and thought here near the end. I don't like it, Kilava. I wanted to trust you the whole game. I helped sway the lynch to Kalse over you because I felt you were more likely town, but now I just can't trust you. I'm hoping we lynch you, but if we don't and we still lynch a killer and you are part of that, then maybe I could believe you, but you could always throw your partner under the bus. We should of listened to everyone else that worried over you and are now dead.

Even if Kilava does turn out to be scum, you still should have hammered yourself. If you turn out to be scum I'll understand, but if you're inno Imma fucking pissed. As a direct result of your refusal to contribute to your lynch we now have to consider that you may be scum on D-Day. If you're innocent you're just a distraction during the most important game in the day. As town you're supposed to do what's best for town, even if that means contributing to leaving the game early yourself.

^All of this, and now I can't decide whether I want to vote Spite for not hammering, vote Ruse for consistently making bizarre and contradictory cases, or just vote Kilava because she was my original suspicion.

The only really "strong" reason to do any of the above is voting Spite, and even that is so weak. I almost want to vote Kilava, but Ruse AND Spite are on that train, and eehhh... is that really reliable.

Denul - what do you think of Anthras skipping out? Intentional or a mistake?

[Denul]

Pallid, on 21 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Denul, on 21 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

You and Anthras BOTH screwed around not wanting to vote for me until it looked like there was no choice. You finally swap to me, Anthras claims he didn't make it back in time but probably just didn't want to be the hammer, Monok drops the potential hammer vote a while after the day ended and said he didn't realize it was too late, and you go all out trying to convince me to kill myself. That entire scenario was messed up, and I'm the least worrisome of it, and you're focusing on me? You're doing a complete 180 from how you played the game at first and now. Are you so close to your win that you're willing to keep saying it was the wrong play to not kill myself? I'm not messing with you when I say I honestly can't believe you're trying to convince me I should have killed myself, when that single action could save the game for town. You've changed the way you've played and thought here near the end. I don't like it, Kilava. I wanted to trust you the whole game. I helped sway the lynch to Kalse over you because I felt you were more likely town, but now I just can't trust you. I'm hoping we lynch you, but if we don't and we still lynch a killer and you are part of that, then maybe I could believe you, but you could always throw your partner under the bus. We should of listened to everyone else that worried over you and are now dead.

Even if Kilava does turn out to be scum, you still should have hammered yourself. If you turn out to be scum I'll understand, but if you're inno Imma fucking pissed. As a direct result of your refusal to contribute to your lynch we now have to consider that you may be scum on D-Day. If you're innocent you're just a distraction during the most important game in the day. As town you're supposed to do what's best for town, even if that means contributing to leaving the game early yourself.

^All of this, and now I can't decide whether I want to vote Spite for not hammering, vote Ruse for consistently making bizarre and contradictory cases, or just vote Kilava because she was my original suspicion.

The only really "strong" reason to do any of the above is voting Spite, and even that is so weak. I almost want to vote Kilava, but Ruse AND Spite are on that train, and eehhh... is that really reliable.

Denul - what do you think of Anthras skipping out? Intentional or a mistake?

Could be a mistake, but if it was it was damn stupid. At the time they voted there were 3 votes on Spite and 2 on Monok, if I remember correctly. Why, when you need three more votes to lynch, and there are three people left, with less than three hours to go (that's a lot of threes, and I'm too lazy to go back for quotes) would you put your vote on the person with the lower votes? When we've struggled for lynches and you KNOW you're not going to come back? That added to the fact that with less than three hours before the end of day they decided to try start a speed lynch on Ruse. When I asked why, Anthras said they thought Ruse was scum and would change if necessary.

Could be inexperience, but also anti-town play. Speed lynches are generally always a terrible idea. Not voting for the guy with the most votes when it's unlikely that there would be enough votes also a terrible idea.

Basically, I think Anthras and Spite are equally terrible.

In line with what I said above, I'll probably be happy to vote for either of them based on their very scum-like play. That way, if we lose, at least we're losing while fighting scum behaviour.

[Denul]

See, the thing about Ruse (and no, I don't want anyone repeating the case to me, I am capable of reading back if I want to) is that the people who are most adamant about lynching them are Trake, Anthras and Kilava.

Trake, the guy who pushed a weak-as-even-for-day-one case on an inno which has been bothering me all game and then disappeared for the rest of the game, except to come and bitch about Ruse and suck Kilava's dick.

Anthras, see above.

Kilava, occupying the same space as potential scum masquerading as super helpful townie that Ruse is in my head.


Lastly, and least helpfully of all, is my gut-feeling which is being tempered by a not wanting to be wrong feeling that Ruse is town. Which I need to keep in mind when looking at arguments about Ruse, but generally speaking by this point in the game trusting my gut has served me well. Then again, I'm sure it's been wrong and I'm selectively ignoring those times or something. I don't know. I need some notes and a thread reread, so I won't be deciding where to put my vote just yet.

(Also similarly Kilava case has Spites OMGUS vote on it (on motherfucking D-day of all days, Jesus H. Christ dude, making me wanna go NOPE there)

[Spite]

Denul, on 21 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Spite, on 20 May 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Denul, on 20 May 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Right now I feel like I'd rather lose the game responding to scummy behaviour/poor play from town than lose the game for ignoring it.

Very much in the same boat.

I just can't see how we can ignore something like a no lynch that happens because one person fucks off leaving their vote elsewhere and another chooses not to hammer himself. If we lose because town decided to play like that, there's sod all to be done about it, we have to follow up the strongest indication of scum, and at the moment, my opinion is that the no lynch is the most sound evidence we've had by a clear margin.

You and Anthras BOTH screwed around not wanting to vote for me until it looked like there was no choice. You finally swap to me, Anthras claims he didn't make it back in time but probably just didn't want to be the hammer, Monok drops the potential hammer vote a while after the day ended and said he didn't realize it was too late, and you go all out trying to convince me to kill myself. That entire scenario was messed up, and I'm the least worrisome of it, and you're focusing on me? You're doing a complete 180 from how you played the game at first and now. Are you so close to your win that you're willing to keep saying it was the wrong play to not kill myself? I'm not messing with you when I say I honestly can't believe you're trying to convince me I should have killed myself, when that single action could save the game for town. You've changed the way you've played and thought here near the end. I don't like it, Kilava. I wanted to trust you the whole game. I helped sway the lynch to Kalse over you because I felt you were more likely town, but now I just can't trust you. I'm hoping we lynch you, but if we don't and we still lynch a killer and you are part of that, then maybe I could believe you, but you could always throw your partner under the bus. We should of listened to everyone else that worried over you and are now dead.

Even if Kilava does turn out to be scum, you still should have hammered yourself. If you turn out to be scum I'll understand, but if you're inno Imma fucking pissed. As a direct result of your refusal to contribute to your lynch we now have to consider that you may be scum on D-Day. If you're innocent you're just a distraction during the most important game in the day. As town you're supposed to do what's best for town, even if that means contributing to leaving the game early yourself.

Be pissed then! Because I sure as heck am. This is stupid. If I was scum, I'd want that town to kill himself. If I'm town, I don't want another town to kill himself, no way. I don't see me ever being in a situation, where I know my faction is town/innocent, that I would want to kill myself. So how is it that someone is supposed to learn this? Where does it say this? I don't think you're scum, but I do Kilava, so I don't get your angle here. I've looked everywhere to see if Kilava was telling the truth, because this is a huge factor in who I feel I should vote for. His prodding me to kill myself is what seems to be his big slip up, in my opinion. I feel like he's covering for his action by taking up this argument and trying to play it off as common mafia knowledge. Well there's nothing but debate over this topic everywhere I look. Google this yourself. Nearly every site either condemns it, of is trying to figure it out themselves. After the game I'll look into it even further, but I'm not buying something that goes against all the logic I have, and nearly every site I goto.

What about you, Denul? Do you actually believe this to be true yourself, or are you defending Kilava? It just seems like you could be defending him. For the sake of argument, assume I was dead. How do you see Kilava? Is he not scummy to you, and if not, who are your top choices for scum. You haven't really told us much about how you've felt in this game. You've just coasted by saying very little. You spoke up about Thyr, but that's it. If you think I'm scum fine, but who is my partner? Do you see someone as a possible symp? Come on, tell us what you think besides just bashing on the rest of us for putting ourselves out there.

This is from a website about mafia tactics.

" Do not go gently into that good night.

Lynching a Townie is a bad thing in general, but lynching a confirmed Townie is worse. To yourself, you ARE a confirmed Townie. While getting lynched is not the end of the world, the fact is that getting lynched is the one thing you can guarantee will hinder your faction. Do not acquiesce to your lynch unless it would be clearly anti-Town to do otherwise (although those situations are not common).

Along these same lines, the occasions where it's pro-Town to self-hammer as Town are extremely limited, and offing yourself out of spite toward the (evident) morons who are about to lynch you isn't one of those occasions. Even if the wagon on you is mostly Town, you still have to win with them in the end, so stay helpful."

Are the uncommon and extremely limited times a town hammers themselves every single time the lynch is needed? If so, then why don't they say that? Also, if it's so rare, when does one learn? In the end, it could be written in a million different places, even though it's not written hardly anywhere, and I still disagree.

We aren't a single step closer to figuring this out as we were yesterday. Yesterday, it got late, I had two votes, and another added there's , not because they felt I was scum but because we needed a lynch. We are doing so good, right? Kilava and Anthras acted like they didn't even want to vote for me for whatever reason, and Kilava finally switched only last minute to get the lynch. He also didn't think I was scum, or at least wasn't saying it. So instead of getting lynched, which was obviously not even one of our most thought out choices anyway, I live. I live, thinking what a good turn of events for both me and town and then get attacked because I didn't believe it was in our best interest to hammer myself. Kilava seems to me to be the scum trying to appear helpful, but pulling strings and directing lynches. He doesn't really have any decent cases on town so he comes up with this. He hasn't voted for me, and hasn't said he would do so. No one else has expressed desires to vote for me, so this isn't about votes. It's about not getting bullied and following through on what I thought was right, but none of this matters to anyone.

remove vote
vote Spite

There. Lynch me, then you guys can hunt scum and win, right. I lost all interest. I wish I had died now. I'm still not accepting blame after the game. Have fun.

[Pallid]

I see the Anthras thing as more likely a mistake, esp. since MO was around as well, and did a very weird, way-too-late-to-vote thing. Fishy.

Everyone is fishy. Like mentioning how "inno" you are while playing the super-helpful townie - has anyone else done talked about themselves being oh so inno, besides Spite (very recently and under great duress)?

Kilava, on 16 May 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

As for the underlined, that's really just a question of free time. I have a lot of it at the moment, but for large parts of it can't really get out and do much.

As for Trake, I wouldn't actually mind a vote there. For someone so vocal to start with, he did totally disappear. My only issue with voting Trake is that I know that I'm inno, so obviously voting Trake reasoning that he's partnered with me doesn't make much sense.

As for contribution and Trake then, looking at Pallid's case where he suggests me/Trake did actually make it occur to me that Thyr could be Trake's symp. In Pallid's case, Thyr doesn't really seem necessary, and could've been the symp or not, the case is more about me/Trake interactions, but it made me think. The question is, if Thyr is the symp, who is he symping? As Eldat points out, he doesn't have to be symping anyone, just drawing attention from their masters. Would Thyr decide to do that just out of the blue, regardless of if another scum was actually under pressure? To me, it doesn't seem worth it to drop a symp just to be sure of getting through day 1, if scum weren't getting pressure.

Before Thyr drew attention, Trake had 2 votes (me and Ruse), tied with Thyr (Trake and Ryadd). So he was competing for largest train with the idea of Thyr's symp clue. Note as well, that Denul and Thyr are never going to go for the symp case alone, so in the normal run of things, Trake's position is kind of shaky here.

-snip-

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Personally I agree with you that a victory is kind of hollow below a certain level of participation. But then, that's my opinion, not everyone shares it, and it wouldn't be the first time scum have coasted along playing very little and won. Town pretty consistently makes it easy to do.

If we're going just by contribution, there really aren't that many people worth lynching...Most of the game probably would've been modkilled if we were on a 24 hour timer instead of 36.

If scum are low posting (and if we currently have 3 scum alive, since I know I'm inno, I don't think I can actually pick three people without including at least one one who has coasted considerably - through at least one day), town have made it very easy for them to do so by giving them vast amounts of camouflage.

It's very frustrating. It always has been, but this game has seemed particularly notable for it.

The more I think about it, the more I just want to vote Spite or Kilava. I feel like a Spite vote would fail again though, and that scares me. And I'm quoting the above because they were the only new things to really stick out to me on my umpteenth thread re-read.

And Denul, my gut screams Ruse is town as well, despite how fuck-all he's playing.

I'm putting my vote down now, but it can switch if need be:

vote Kilava

[Pallid]

Woaahh, Spite, breathe.

[Denul]

Of course you aren't accepting blame after the game Can't expect you to own playing a shit game, amirite?

But I'm not complaining about you losing interest, given your contribution generally.

Self -pity in mafia = holds no water.

[Denul]

Pallid, on 21 May 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

And Denul, my gut screams Ruse is town as well, despite how fuck-all he's playing.

Okay, glad it's not just me And I haven't had the same reaction to his play that other people have, but then I lost track of the thread midway through last week and wasn't following cases very well.

[Ruse]

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Please logically justify how having you around is more helpful. The extra inno you keep talking about makes zero difference, and in fact statistically hinders us. Do you really think having someone around who had a no lynch in really suspicious circumstances is going to help the town, more than having a CF and being able to move onto other things?

Logically? If he is town and knows he is town then that is one more town to help us lynch. If he dies then WCS state that there are 3 scum ready to manipulate the thread against 4 town. Now we Have 5 town against 3 scum.

Not only that but if Spite CF's as town then what can you glean from that? It is not like he has had much interaction with the remaining players.

I can see your point about the odd/even rule if it was like you and I up for the lynch, or someone that have had cases cast against them but left behind, like Trake/Pallid. THAT would give us information and help us a lot more. The fact that he didn't hammer himself is a good point in his favour. Why didn't anyone else hammer him? To use that confusion. That is why. Trake/Anthras and whoever else didn't vote. Trake gets the benefit of the doubt because of RL reasons. Anthras has no excuse. You Kilava Pussy footed around with him anmd in the end there was no lynch. It is not like we had a very productive day. Garnering discussion with only 4 hours to go is fucking bad and you should know that any lynch was worth it at that stage. Once the votes went on Spite that should have been that. Not bringing up new cases like Anthras did, or voting Monok like you did.

[Ruse]

Anthras, on 21 May 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Yeah it seems Ruse let Pallid off the hook twice. The issue is, if Ruse were partnered with Pallid in some way, why draw attention to him? Pallid has been pretty low key. If Ruse is symp and Pallid killer, there'd be no reason to bring up Pallid. If Ruse is killer as well as Pallid, it seems risky to bring up a brief case on Pallid. That said, the risk is considerably lower when you take into account the sheer number of cases and suspicions thrown about by Ruse. Looking back, there was never a real chance of a Pallid train taking off because of Ruse's accusations. There might be something to this, but it requires that they were willing to risk unwanted attention at a point in the game where Pallid was relatively safe. Potential risk, but high reward in that it none would assume a partnership between the two after one dared accuse the other (even if it went nowhere).

These types of posts are golden for me. If you and Kilava are scum then that makes me think Pallid is innocent. I feel like you're trying to set me up as a symp here. Let me go back and see what suspicions I had of Pallid.

[Ruse]

Spite, on 21 May 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Anthras, on 20 May 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

I've gone through the thread to track Ruse, and more importantly to track who he has deliberately ignored. It's safe to say that Ruse has cast suspicion on every player in the game at this point.

Here's my sticky note post list.

Ruse mention:
post# suspect name.
106 Trake
107 Denul Killer
107 Ryadd+Pallid
107 Thyr
178 Denul,Trake,Spite,Thyrllan,Serc,Ryadd
299 Kilava
302 Pallid+Kilava
416 Monok [gets a brief mention]
594 Anthras
599 Eldat

Not much to get from the list at the end of the day. Monok got the least attention, but a brief mention as a possible scum. If I had to, I'd wager Monok is Ruse's scum partner, most likely the killer in hiding. As to the other partner, it is hard to tell purely from post mentions. Even ignoring Monok's potential tie to Ruse (it is a weak tie, relying on a briefer accusation than all other accusations-- ridiculous and hilarious!), Ruse has accused everyone... Some minor cases, some major (Trake, Kilava, Pallid). Ruse is clearly looking to confuse and misdirect at every opportunity.

I would possibly be able to see this if it weren't coming from Anthras. This may be stupid(but that's all it appears I'm good for) but I don't like how this is twice now that Anthras has brought up a case against Ruse out of nowhere when we have other options on the table. I know no one is a serious target yet, but it just seems odd that he's done this twice in a row in as many days. Now bare with me Kilava, you posted some things I haven't finished replying to yet, but for the sake of argument, for now, I have you as the top choice for scum. You mentioned something about was I voting for you because I was mad, and I admit, yes I am mad. I felt like you chose to put someone down for lack of knowledge, who obviously isn't as experienced as you as your case against them. If I am able to finally get what you've "tried to teach me", it will have to be after this game is over and I see you're town and you're intentions were true. I just don't like the feel of it. It just seems "unnatural," or something. Back to Anthras. I feel like he could be very subtly trying to preemptively build a case against Ruse in case we get serious about you. Anthras would fit as your symp or partner, although he said that Pallid could be your partner, which is who I thought it might be, and said so, and so did Trake. He could be just saying Pallid to sound like he is agreeing with us, as long as it isn't you, and hopefully get Ruse lynched over either one of you.

Trake has said Pallid.
Anthras says Ruse almost definitely, and Pallid possible partner.
I think Kilava heavily, and Pallid or Anthras partner/symp.
Ruse thinks Kilava, and has mentioned either Pallid or Trake as partner.

It seems like Pallid might be the key there, but I don't like letting Kilava skip away yet *again.* I don't like how Anthras has played the last two days at all with going for Ruse twice like that, and mentioning Pallid as his choice for scum. I don't like how Monoc failed to vote, even if it would have meant my death because at least Kilava wouldn't be making me feel like I don't get the game, and I have no read on Denul, but he's contributed the least, or tied for it.

The reason Anthras and Kilava are partnering me with Pallid is because they think I've least pointed fingers at Pallid. I am pretty sure I vote Pallid early on. Then Pallid did some things that cooled my heat. Not only that but Pallid will get modkilled for inactivity soon. When did they last post? Possibly PS is holding off because WCS dictates that it is D day. When was Pallid's last post?

We HAVE to test Kilava today. Then find his partner tomorrow. I'm pretty sure Anthras is scum with his behaviour. I'd lay Trake as the main suspect for Kilava's partner.

[Ruse]

Anthras, on 21 May 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Spite, on 21 May 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Back to Anthras. I feel like he could be very subtly trying to preemptively build a case against Ruse in case we get serious about you. Anthras would fit as your symp or partner, although he said that Pallid could be your partner, which is who I thought it might be, and said so, and so did Trake. He could be just saying Pallid to sound like he is agreeing with us, as long as it isn't you, and hopefully get Ruse lynched over either one of you.

I don't like how Anthras has played the last two days at all with going for Ruse twice like that, and mentioning Pallid as his choice for scum.

I'll admit that my first Ruse case came at a bad time. Bare with me, it was the first time last week that I actually had time to sift through the thread and find some evidence, and I obviously overlooked the consequences of presenting the case. I should have waited until today to go after Ruse. My case today just built off the last, and since it is early in the day I felt that it was all right to place my vote there. I still find Ruse to be the scummiest player so far, and if you've read through any of his multiple accusations you'll find that his shit, as they say, is bonkers.

And to Kilava. I have to admit that the no lynch was in part my fault, as a change in vote would have secured the lynch. I left prematurely, forgot to switch (though i still maintain that a Monok lynch was theoretically viable at the time), and basically fucked up. The only benefit we get from that day is a possible indication of Monok as scum due to his delayed vote.

It is very likely that Ruse is scum. The Pallid link is interesting, though I still think there may be something off with Monok

What are your thoughts on your masters? Kilava and Trake?

You have muddied the water with your timing. I don't know if you did it on purpose but it looks that way.

[Ruse]

I am looking through some early stuff. Kilava you mention Pallid 6 times in this one vote and use him to vote for Trake. What has vindicated your distrust of Trake?

The next post Trake mentions Pallid 5 times.

Kilava, on 13 May 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Ruse seems to be jumping to overly complex suspicions for how early in the game it is. Fake symping as a deliberate angle does not seem very plausible. Less common at least than symp clue votes.

Also, his vote on Trake is rather odd.

However, I'm going to vote Trake for over reacting.

Trake, on 13 May 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Pallid, on 13 May 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

^ Duh. I pretty much said, "let's watch Denul and Thyr", Denul cried, and I laughed. So Trake is repeating this for our benefits?

Anyways, off for work, and won't be posting until later tonight.

Actually you made a pathetically miserable attempt to draw attention to something. No pressure and just a little joke. That isn't drawing attention to anything but your lack of conviction. Which we can see by the fact that you posted after PS indicated that votes count and did not apply any pressure to your suspect. If you had conviction then you would point out me for my comment and then put pressure on your suspect. Instead you show that you are like a politician trying to get elected and perfectly willing to flip flop in any direction as long as you think you look good. But no conviction and no understanding of how to actually apply pressure to someone to see if in fact your hypothesis is correct. So you fail.

This post jumped out at me. While there certainly can be something scummy in Pallid's sort of behaviour,in this case Trake's reaction just seems unwarranted. That reaction, just because he didn't vote, early on day one, after prodding?

More to the point, it's an accusation that doesn't arise until Pallid prods Trake. Funny, given how scummy it apparently is.

If Pallid has shown that he is "like a politician trying to get elected and perfectly willing to flip flop in any direction as long as you think you look good", then why isn't Trake showing his own conviction and voting him, as he claims is the way to go? Is he that confident that someone else seems scummier than that?

I also really don't like "If you had conviction then you would point out me for my comment and then put pressure on your suspect". Firstly, for vote pressuring. Secondly for the slight implication that he should be given credit in the case that Pallid did vote. Which brings me on to the other thing I really don't like about this post. It has this tone of insistence that he was the instigator/contributing/adding something original.

This reaction, because Pallid lightly suggested that Trake was not adding anything new?

Trake's reaction is OMGUS, but more than that, he argues that what he is doing is totally different because he voted, and that Trake (because he voted) is the one who really brought attention to the issue, look at useful and original he is. Seems to me that the suggestion of unoriginality hit a bit of a nerve.

What really bugs me about the reaction is the fact that, while he's making accusations against Pallid, it's actually defensive. And to me, it seems rather too passionate a defense for a rather small prod.

Vote Trake.

I think this fake spat between you two helps increase Trake's post count early on.


Anthras has changed his tune since here..

Anthras, on 13 May 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

What a confusing mess to catch up on. Anything I wanted to respond to has already been said by others, especially Kilava in response to Trake.

As for the cases:

Trake seems a little jumpy at this point, and has an odd tendency to over-explain posts while supplying shitty useful commentary and how it relates to Grand Mafia Strategy. That said, we've seen play like Trake's many times before, and often come up with an ambitious town instead of stupid scum. Not to say we overlook the fellow, but seeing as its day one we can afford to step back and take a few breaths.

As for Ruse,

Trake, on 13 May 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

I agree that Ruses vote is suspicious. His logic is completely off suggesting that scum would want to set someone up on day 1 is completely off of the radar, and his vote on me is just wacky.

I don't agree with Trake here. Ruse's logic seems obvious: make a stab in the dark, then judge reaction. This is old stuff. Ruse explained that Trake's reaction -- providing an alternate target than himself without initially acknowledging the vote on himself -- seemed to be an attempt to redirect attention away from himself. Whether or not this was actually the case is impossible to say at this point, but Ruse's logic is pretty straightforward.

Denul's vote for Thyr. Seemed like a joke vote. However, Trake did manage to dig up that example from the last game. Might be something to it.


As is, I'm not going to vote haphazardly. It is day one, so there is not reason to go crazy. Lots of time left.

So now he agreeable with Trake?

[Ruse]

Day one saw Mockra, Kalse and Eldat all vote for Kilava at different points.

[Ruse]

Found this Golden Oldie.

Anthras, on 15 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Damn sorry all for missing the lynch timer. I have a very narrow window of time to play the game. From what I can tell, Khell probably acted as he did for shits and giggles. That was an odd way to play, symp or no symp. If we assume he was a symp, what was he interested in achieving? Might be worth going back and looking for reasons for Thyr to direct attention away someone and on to himself. But there were a few small cases being thrown about, and nothing suggested the need for distracting noobery, as far as I can tell.

I do not see how Kilava actually contributing in a meaningful fashion to the game is scummy. "Too smooth?" If smooth is applying pressure and building cases, then I guess Kilava is guilty. But then, that is how town is supposed to play. Some of Mockra's points make sense, but I feel that they become more relevant mid game. The post is a page back, but these parts are interesting (I should just go grab the damn post, but I have the tab opened anyway):

"The other thing that really gets me is your love of summaries. I believe you've done more than two so far. What was it that was said about scum and lists? Again, who wants to lynch the helpful townie who saves everyone from reading through the thread over and over. Plus, it makes you look meticulous and thoughtful. In summary, one of the best places for a killer is guiding the thread, thinking for people, looking objective, and playing at suspicion when you know perfectly well who are the bad guys are."

These are actually good points, but only really useful later on in game. If Kilava were to only provide thread summaries for a couple days, then I might get behind this argument. But as is, day one, Kilava has provided summaries and cases, even willing to pressure people on those cases. And Mockra's point about a killer directing the thread is a very real possibility. The last small game actually had Khell, I believe, leading the thread the entire game and picking us apart. We might be a little early to be accusing anyone of directing the thread, but we need to make damn sure not to overlook this point.


edit: font size

For someone who missed the lynch timer early in the game and felt bad enough about it to apologise would not make the same msitake twice. 3 people had vote for Kilava throughout day one. All dead and innocent. Anthras first post after the lynch is defence of Kilava.

[Spite]

Ruse, on 21 May 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Kilava, on 20 May 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Please logically justify how having you around is more helpful. The extra inno you keep talking about makes zero difference, and in fact statistically hinders us. Do you really think having someone around who had a no lynch in really suspicious circumstances is going to help the town, more than having a CF and being able to move onto other things?

Logically? If he is town and knows he is town then that is one more town to help us lynch. If he dies then WCS state that there are 3 scum ready to manipulate the thread against 4 town. Now we Have 5 town against 3 scum.

Not only that but if Spite CF's as town then what can you glean from that? It is not like he has had much interaction with the remaining players.

I can see your point about the odd/even rule if it was like you and I up for the lynch, or someone that have had cases cast against them but left behind, like Trake/Pallid. THAT would give us information and help us a lot more. The fact that he didn't hammer himself is a good point in his favour. Why didn't anyone else hammer him? To use that confusion. That is why. Trake/Anthras and whoever else didn't vote. Trake gets the benefit of the doubt because of RL reasons. Anthras has no excuse. You Kilava Pussy footed around with him anmd in the end there was no lynch. It is not like we had a very productive day. Garnering discussion with only 4 hours to go is fucking bad and you should know that any lynch was worth it at that stage. Once the votes went on Spite that should have been that. Not bringing up new cases like Anthras did, or voting Monok like you did.

This. Thank you. I'm sorry for that last pity party, but that was really pissing me off with first Kilava, then Denul accusing me of screwing us because I didn't want to kill my own self. I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone. Thank you. That's all I wanted. People can vote me, lynch me, or whatever, but it wasn't cool trying to put our screw up all on my shoulders for not killing myself. At least one person can see where I was coming from.

remove vote
vote Kilava

Also, Pallid is voting Kilava. I have Kilava and Pallid as scum, and Anthras symp. If he isn't either voting with the intention of removing vote if Kilava gets close to lynch, or tossing his partner under the bus, then I'll need to rethink Pallid. I'm not thinking Trake is scum, but at this point it could be anyone.

I have to get to bed. It may be the same time tomorrow before I can get back on as today, but I'll try to get on from work if needed.

[Ruse]

Pallid did not like Kilava's play either early on. Read from this post...

Pallid's distrust of Kilava

[Ruse]

I had Pallid as a possible partner but I think it could also be Trake.

Ruse, on 15 May 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Ruse, on 14 May 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Wow.

If Thyr is faking I want to give that guy an Oscar.

I'd be willing to vote for Denul, Trake, Spite, Thyrllan, Serc, Ryadd for all different reasons. Nothing big though as it's only day one. Denul for initial vote that started this mess, Trake for his aggressive play when confronted, Spite for coasting along voting with the flow not adding much, thyrllan in case signalling was right, Serc for seemingly.fake symping me, he had been too agreeable with me and follows my vote, and Ryadd because I think he is the actual symp.

Who do you think Ryadd is symping, and wouldn't it be more sensible to vote them than him?

Okay then

Vote Kilava and Pallid

remove vote

vote Kilava